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...you should read Jobs biography when it comes out ...at one time after college he studied the art of scripture and fonts ..which years later helped him when he was involved in the design of the first Apple computers....your rather obtuse comments deny the usefulness that many people have found in having a variety of skills some derived from hobbies.... :rolleyes:

`

...fonts... .totally unrelated to computing.... rolleyes.gif

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Sales and account manager jobs seem to be doing well (major sales not retail). I'm just recruiting a new NAM and have been headhunted recently.

There is a lot of demand for great NAMs at the moment as businesses need people who will drive sales and cut costs, boost margins.

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Well, it's just possible that what he says is basically true. Anecdotal evidence suggests there are completely clueless people in IT contracting jobs (a C++ "contractor" who does not know how to use a template; we are not talking mpl, just "reverse the sequence between two random access iterators" or some such), and I have first hand evidence of clueless people supposedly with degrees working in IT ("is it really the switch or the wiring that's broken, or does your Linux machine use a different routing protocol than the Windows machine the other side of the room that it cannot see over the network"). Soul Reaver's mention of a GF reminds me of another anecdotal: a salesman (ok, support engineer) turned up in wife's £50k car. She was minting it as a "SAP consultant". Her next job was at a department store ....

Soul Reaver: I hope you don't mind too much people being offensive and failing to appreciate your skills. I expect you have got much further than most people with the same educational background would have. I wondered if you would mind telling us how you found your IT contract(s), and how you got through the interviews? I guess it would be best if you were willing to share some questions that you were asked. I think it would also help if you could say what socioeconomic background you came from and whether you went to a public school. No worries if you are sick of people being nasty to you, and would rather not :-)

My own experience is that pretty much all decent developer jobs require deep knowledge far beyond something you can pick up quickly even with a good degree in Computer Science, and would be completely impossible to do for someone with previous experience in cooking rather than maths/engineering/science. Hence perhaps the exodus of "IT" contractors who could just about tell a network cable from kettle lead following the dotcom bust. And good riddance to them.

Ok here goes

Council house family with dad working at Hotpoint as a welder and mum as a dinner lady (went on to become head cook before retiring) Mum and dad bought their house for the princely sum of £1900 and set about paying it off. Lucky them eh.

I went to the local comprehensive but seemed to spend all my time skiving round my mates house who’s dad was a real gangster and bookmaker, we used to help him do the book at greyhound races and school seemed boring in comparison :) As such I left school with nothing at all and even skived all my exams. My dad wanted me to work at Hotpoint which I was resisting. Whilst at school we had gone on a weeks work experience with the navy on an inshore minesweeper which I had enjoyed very much so in a fit of trying to escape Hotpoint I went and joined up at 16.

I did my basic training in Gosport as a junior seaman second class (there is no lower rank) and it was during this time that as a seaman that you can opt for submarines, at the time it was paying more money so my mate and I did and we were shipped off to Dolphin in Portsmouth to learn how to be a jolly jack tar of all trades :)

The navy teach you this because they need everyman on a submarine to be able to do everyone else’s job for many reasons not least safety and fire fighting etc. So you learn your own job, mine was tactical systems working in the control room and you also have to do what is called your part three which is a mahoosive book on the whole submarine and you have to learn each compartment and then be tested on it by the compartment head. If you pass part three which is normally conducted on your first 3 month patrol (on a bomber) then you get your dolphins and are considered one of the elite, if you fail you are kicked out to skimmers. This is why there is such animosity between subs and skimmers because we view them as failed submariners. Anyway I passed my part three during our patrol when the Falklands war kicked off and because we were at sea at the time we were sent down there.

My nature being one of getting bored easily I started to get bored with being in the navy so one weekend I didn’t go back :) Went on the run for 3 months and then my sister just said look you cant be on the run forever and paid for my train fair back to Faslane where I handed myself in. I got court martialled and kicked out but with not having to do any DQ's because my captain liked me and he just recognised I am a free spirit.

So free and jobless :) My mate was maintenance man at a nightclub in my home city and I was there one day drinking coffee when in walks Matt the boss, ah he says you’re the chef from the navy he says, Err yes I say with my mate smiling. Well let me show you the kitchen then which he did and we ummed and ahhed and then he said can you start Thursday (it was Monday) to which I said I could. My mate was laughing his head off. I mean I can cook but a chef in a nightclub LOL. He had told Matt I used to be the chef on the submarine without me knowing :) because he knew I wanted a new job.

So I took the menus home and me and my mum went through them and cooked it all up in the kitchen so I was prepared. I started on Thursday night and shit myself :) The orders started coming in and I realised all it was was good coordination and making sure you got things out at the right time. I had some kitchen helpers and delegated and got through it. I also realised that the chef is GOD and no one dared tell me what to do or how to do it, I learnt that day that I could be anything and as long as I myself believed it then no one would ever question me and they would also believe it unless I gave them cause for doubt. I learnt how to blag that day. It would stand me in good stead later on :)

I got bored and wanted to earn more money. At the time windows and doors were all the thing and I applied for a job at a company specialising in council house mortgages with a windows package thrown in. I got the job and went on my first appointment in Wisbech shitting myself again. The whole family were there my god I was so nervous. Anyway I just explained that they could buy their house for 60% discount and we would organise the mortgage for them install all new upvc windows and oh look its cheaper than your current rent is!!!! I signed up loads as you can imagine. Trouble is the windows part we got commission on and it was always we will get that once the job completes. I never saw a penny of nearly 30k of commission and one day the fraud squad arrived and took all the filing cabinets away and that was the end of that job. I tried a few other sales jobs after that but just got fed up being sold the dream with the reality being much harder to achieve.

I got bored with sales. I had been tinkering with rebuilding an old JPS 3 litre Capri round the back yard and was also motorbike racing. Another good mate asked me if I could service one of his vans (he had a decorator suppliers) the van was a Renault master diesel and I found it very easy to do to be honest. Saved him a fortune on Renault prices and he asked me to look after the whole fleet of 24 vans and cars woot. I started my own garage business on the back of this one client servicing them at his yard as a sort of mobile mechanic. I would visit companies and say I was servicing this suppliers vehicles and could save the 50% on their dealers costs and rapidly built a big client list. If they rang him he would sing my praises. Little did they know that half the time the van was round the back of my mums being done. I would pick it up and drop it back off with the book stamped and all done and they were all happy.

I got bored again and one day I was round my mates who was an IT tester contractor in the banking sector, this is now late 1996. I was in his kitchen having a cup of tea and on the table top was his monthly invoice of just over 8 grand. I nearly fell off my chair! I grilled him as to what it was he did exactly. I was heavily into gaming at the time and was building my own gaming PC's and so that night went home went online and bought "software testing in the real world" and a couple of books from Cem Kaner and Boris Beizer for good measure. I had also bought about a month before a photo reading course by Paul Sheele from the learning foundation and was learning that at the time so I thought it a good exercise to use my new photo reading skills on these new books. I fixed cars by day and I studied by night for 10 months. I felt I was ready.

I sought out a professional cv writer and told her my plan that I needed to blag a cv and she agreed to help me. She crafted me a cv so it looked like I had been software testing in the navy (Cant be checked due to secrecy laws etc) and that I had left the navy later than I had. I also knew that as soon as you mention submariner people start imagining seaview and men in white coats Armed with this cv I sent it out for jobs on Jobserve. The phone never stopped ringing, what I didn’t know is that in 97/8 a lot of mobile Telco’s were starting up across Europe and they needed bums on seats.

I got an interview for a job in Munich and went to London shitting myself again :) The photo reading had worked, they asked me the contents of a test strategy and I reeled it off. They asked me what I would put in a test plan and I reeled it off. I had never done it but I had all the knowledge of how to do it. They gave me the job. I drove to Munich on my own and sat in hotel on my own and my mum rang me and she said son the worst that can happen is that on day one they will find out you’re a blagger and have to give you a months notice and you will have earned 8 grand (it was 2k a week) You’re right I said and went to work the following day knowing that as long as I never told a soul the worst they could think is that im just crap.

So day one was spent on introductions £400 quid earnt :) day two was spent finding a desk and getting a pc £800 earnt day 3 my boss comes to me and says I want you test CRM but as it’s a new system I need you to learn it here so here is the user guide and documentation. Ok I said how long till we start testing? 3 months he says!!!!!!!!!! So let me get this right I thought. You are going to me pay me £400 a day for 3 months to learn a system from your books so I can test it for you! Hmm paydirt.

Never looked back. 13 years later Im now on 240k a year with work till end of 2012 booked in. Happy days being a jack of all trades.

Sorry that was so long but some people seem to think I’m a bullshitter.

Edited by Soul Reaver

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Ok here goes

failed submariners...."

"...me and my mum..."

"...I got bored with sales...."

"...I got bored again and one day..."

"...navy (Cant be checked due to secrecy laws etc)..."

"...you mention submariner people start imagining seaview and men in white coats ..."

"...13 years later Im now on 240k a year with work till end of 2012 booked in. ..."

"...Sorry that was so long but some people seem to think I’m a bullshitter...."

You are an estate agent and i claim my £5.

p.s i editied out all the boring bits for you. when's your book out?

Edited by sympatex

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You are an estate agent and i claim my £5.

p.s i editied out all the boring bits for you. when's your book out?

All our lives read like a book when you start writing it down ha ha just that some books are less boring than others :)

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So day one was spent on introductions £400 quid earnt :) day two was spent finding a desk and getting a pc £800 earnt day 3 my boss comes to me and says I want you test CRM but as it's a new system I need you to learn it here so here is the user guide and documentation. Ok I said how long till we start testing? 3 months he says!!!!!!!!!! So let me get this right I thought. You are going to me pay me £400 a day for 3 months to learn a system from your books so I can test it for you! Hmm paydirt.

Late 90s were a bit mad with the bubble and all. My experience dating back to that time was that the market rate for a tester with some domain knowledge working in the SE was well under 30k. Admittedly, that bought inept idiots who felt the purpose of their life was to fill in timesheets, so we got the required number of tests but they were copies of each other and did not catch all that many bugs. They completely botched the testharness as well, thought that could have been been avoided by hiring someone competent, and making sure the manager was not a complete muppet. We failed to do that, and years later - after most of the company disappeared - it turned out the whole thing could have been done correctly for a tiny fraction of the resources spent on it if only someone with a brain had been given the task.

Never looked back. 13 years later Im now on 240k a year with work till end of 2012 booked in. Happy days being a jack of all trades.

That sounds remarkably good, being in the region of £1000 a day. It is about double the current dayrate for a competent developer working in the City, and it would appear, pretty much the ceiling for any developer job advertised on Jobserve. The ones that are available at that rate generally require substantial quant experience, and at the very least a degree from a top uni.

Sorry that was so long but some people seem to think I'm a bullshitter.

To be fair, that is precisely what you are, especially by your own admission :-) I don't doubt that what you say here is true though.

Anyway, many thanks for writing all that, and good luck with keeping that contract because it may turn out difficult to replace.

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Late 90s were a bit mad with the bubble and all. My experience dating back to that time was that the market rate for a tester with some domain knowledge working in the SE was well under 30k. Admittedly, that bought inept idiots who felt the purpose of their life was to fill in timesheets, so we got the required number of tests but they were copies of each other and did not catch all that many bugs. They completely botched the testharness as well, thought that could have been been avoided by hiring someone competent, and making sure the manager was not a complete muppet. We failed to do that, and years later - after most of the company disappeared - it turned out the whole thing could have been done correctly for a tiny fraction of the resources spent on it if only someone with a brain had been given the task.

That sounds remarkably good, being in the region of £1000 a day. It is about double the current dayrate for a competent developer working in the City, and it would appear, pretty much the ceiling for any developer job advertised on Jobserve. The ones that are available at that rate generally require substantial quant experience, and at the very least a degree from a top uni.

To be fair, that is precisely what you are, especially by your own admission :-) I don't doubt that what you say here is true though.

Anyway, many thanks for writing all that, and good luck with keeping that contract because it may turn out difficult to replace.

True although that's a bit harsh. I prefer to think of myself as a trier. And are you really bullshitting if you know you can do something but just need a break to get that valuable practical experience and your foot in the door? I would argue not myself.

I am currently a senior test manager now after having over 13 years of testing contracts all over the world in Telco. I'm in Switzerland which is the land of milk and honey for rates ;) Tester rate here is £600/day for good proven experience.

I agree with you on the difficulty to replace bit although my fears over outsourcing have come to nought. I have other interests now on the internet so would not mind in the least to be honest and I can always fix cars :) I am not averse to going anywhere too which always gives you a wider choice in the jobs market.

Edited by Soul Reaver

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What job-fields are:

(a) in decline for the forseeable (coming 5 yrs)

and what are

(b ) increasing in employment for the forseeable?

my guesses immediately are (a) in decline - public sector, universities, etc (b ) increasing - banking (unfortunately) , ????

other peoples' views?

Certainly quite a few good IT contract roles in Investment banking around at the moment. Does seem to be increasing, had a fair few more cold calls than usual via the company switchboard. Currently full time, but some of the daily rates out there right now are rather tempting.

Friend though in teaching having a torrid time trying to find a job (Primary ed) the so called "we need more men in teaching" quote, being lies it seems :(

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Last startup I worked for needed multi-millions and it was hell to work for. They eventually did get bought, and the founders did very well. The average worker only got ~£5k each (after devoting their lives to it). And they had a bit of luck throughout.

Surely that is the fundamental flaw in any argument insisting that anybody can do it.

To make big money you need a bunch of people to essentially get shafted.

Trouble is, that's the current dominant model of business.

It's not too far removed from the National Lottery, in the sense that it requires large numbers of mugs to fund the opulent winnings of those who gain.

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Surely that is the fundamental flaw in any argument insisting that anybody can do it.

To make big money you need a bunch of people to essentially get shafted.

Trouble is, that's the current dominant model of business.

It's not too far removed from the National Lottery, in the sense that it requires large numbers of mugs to fund the opulent winnings of those who gain.

To start a business you need a good idea, the ability to realise that idea and the drive to see it through. No more.

Business is in a sense about exploiting people. You exploit your suppliers and your employees, in the respect you get them to do stuff and sell it for more than it costs them to do.

In return they get a cosy salary each month, whereas you as a business owner get to put your ass on the line itrt your house gets repo'd if you have debts secured against it and your whole investment (time and money) can go down the tubes if your business ceases trading. In return for these benefits you get the chance to get rich if you run your business properly.

Everyone has a choice about which of these two roles they want to play.

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In Engineering you can earn good money doing:

Oil & Gas sector - integrity management - keeping corroding oil rigs from going bang. Now that the regulator's closely watching following Macondo.

Nuclear decommissioning - if you can stand the extremely slow pace of work. I am sure some of the ideas behind the safety cases that if they take 4,510 million years to get the thing signed off then the risk will have halved. Still, nice chance to coin it in all funded by HMRC.

Chemical manufacturing - less cash than Oil & Gas but still pulling engineering talent from the same pool so rates are okay.

There are a few projects going too but most of the things I see are involved with keeping old stuff going rather than putting in new stuff.

Hope this helps

Adam.

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True although that's a bit harsh. I prefer to think of myself as a trier. And are you really bullshitting if you know you can do something but just need a break to get that valuable practical experience and your foot in the door? I would argue not myself.

I suppose it is what I might call you if I were to interview you, and then find out about those white lies on the CV :-) I did not mean to imply you were a compulsive liar or anything like that. Having said that, my experience with getting contract work is that it does require plenty of experience and deep knowledge. Someone turning up with neither is really pushing the luck, though obviously now that you have succeeded it's all good.

I am currently a senior test manager now after having over 13 years of testing contracts all over the world in Telco. I'm in Switzerland which is the land of milk and honey for rates ;) Tester rate here is £600/day for good proven experience.

Unreal! So how much do you pay developers then? Say someone with a decent degree and 10 years of C++ experience as a senior engineer? I am surprised these jobs are not advertised on Jobserve as the employer could easily cut the wage bill in half by doing so.

I agree with you on the difficulty to replace bit although my fears over outsourcing have come to nought. I have other interests now on the internet so would not mind in the least to be honest and I can always fix cars :) I am not averse to going anywhere too which always gives you a wider choice in the jobs market.

Presumably, you can just retire after making easily enough to save a million quid? It will probably buy a 10k index-linked annuity :-) Anyway, good luck again.

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I suppose it is what I might call you if I were to interview you, and then find out about those white lies on the CV :-) I did not mean to imply you were a compulsive liar or anything like that. Having said that, my experience with getting contract work is that it does require plenty of experience and deep knowledge. Someone turning up with neither is really pushing the luck, though obviously now that you have succeeded it's all good.

Unreal! So how much do you pay developers then? Say someone with a decent degree and 10 years of C++ experience as a senior engineer? I am surprised these jobs are not advertised on Jobserve as the employer could easily cut the wage bill in half by doing so.

Presumably, you can just retire after making easily enough to save a million quid? It will probably buy a 10k index-linked annuity :-) Anyway, good luck again.

Would have retired but ex wife took the property after the divorce and I took a contract with Nokia in Dubai. Long story that one and Im not gonna write it here but essentailly she was not that stable so I let her have the horses dogs and equine property. I also spent the first 6 years of contracting living the dream and spending every penny :)

We get paid in CHF here so the conversion goes up and down of course but on average here a good dev is on around 120chf/hour so about 1000 a day if he works 9 hours so £710 x 21 £14910/month less tax of course at todays rate. A few weeks ago that was a lot more because of sterlings tank

To the guy that said 240k my ****, you need to get out of England more as you sound very blinkered. My job in the UK pays about £550 day max at the moment but even that is 140k a year. I have seen it as low as £350 but of course that's why I don't work in the UK.

Edited by Soul Reaver

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anyone know how the environment sector is doing, near term (30% public sector cost/jobs cuts) and med/long term (population and economic growth requires environmental management)? I know it don't pay well, but would like to hear from some people close to it how it is doing.

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Tell me where I'm going wrong, seriously. Even if I move abroad, I'm looking at $60k Euros in Germany or $90k dollars in the U.S. (though I don't want to work there). Perhaps it's the industry. Perhaps I should leave the USEFUL stuff behind like the actual design and go into a more sales-based role (but then middle-management usually get the chop first during hard times). Even then you're clearing only £60k+ in the UK, and is it worth the hassle? Anywhere even near £100k has to be CEO territory. The £240k figure just seems like la-la land to me. Only attainable if you contract in oil & gas, get insane IT contracts, work in law/politics/council echelons, start your own successful business.

Switching to nuclear/oil&gas will net more, but that is more years of training with the loss of money that goes with that.

I just don't see it....

I wish I found IT interesting, maybe then I'd see some of these big bucks...

I think IF your story is true, and sorry for being a skeptic here but you can understand why, then you have been INSANELY lucky.

Edited by guitarman001

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Tell me where I'm going wrong, seriously. Even if I move abroad, I'm looking at $60k Euros in Germany or $90k dollars in the U.S. (though I don't want to work there). Perhaps it's the industry. Perhaps I should leave the USEFUL stuff behind like the actual design and go into a more sales-based role (but then middle-management usually get the chop first during hard times). Even then you're clearing only £60k+ in the UK, and is it worth the hassle? Anywhere even near £100k has to be CEO territory. The £240k figure just seems like la-la land to me. Only attainable if you contract in oil & gas, get insane IT contracts, work in law/politics/council echelons, start your own successful business.

Switching to nuclear/oil&gas will net more, but that is more years of training with the loss of money that goes with that.

I just don't see it....

I wish I found IT interesting, maybe then I'd see some of these big bucks...

I think IF your story is true, and sorry for being a skeptic here but you can understand why, then you have been INSANELY lucky.

Of course he;'s been insanely lucky.

The great triumph of the current neo conservative/neo liberal lot is to make you doubt that. To think that high paying, high option, rich lifestyle existence is normal.

It isn't. Rich, high earning people are freaks, outliers.

Most people have ****** all, this is completely normal, to be expected and there is nothing wrong with it.

Theres nothing wrong with being lucky, having lots of cash and income either, just remove the idea that it's normal. Turn off the goddamn TV and look around you. If you are in england, just wander around your town. Count the houses or note the areas by rough headcount, the rich ones and poor ones and you'll soon see what normal is. Crap jobs, fairly dull lives, no political or social influence, constant pressure to pay the bills etc etc are all normal.

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Of course he;'s been insanely lucky.

The great triumph of the current neo conservative/neo liberal lot is to make you doubt that. To think that high paying, high option, rich lifestyle existence is normal.

It isn't. Rich, high earning people are freaks, outliers.

Most people have ****** all, this is completely normal, to be expected and there is nothing wrong with it.

Theres nothing wrong with being lucky, having lots of cash and income either, just remove the idea that it's normal. Turn off the goddamn TV and look around you. If you are in england, just wander around your town. Count the houses or note the areas by rough headcount, the rich ones and poor ones and you'll soon see what normal is. Crap jobs, fairly dull lives, no political or social influence, constant pressure to pay the bills etc etc are all normal.

many people with high paying jobs also have pressure to pay bills etc, it is like a requirement to have some high paying jobs is lack of ability to plan

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many people with high paying jobs also have pressure to pay bills etc, it is like a requirement to have some high paying jobs is lack of ability to plan

It's an optional pressure for the highly paid that it isn't for the lower paid, but yes you are right.

Well done.

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Tell me where I'm going wrong, seriously. Even if I move abroad, I'm looking at $60k Euros in Germany or $90k dollars in the U.S. (though I don't want to work there). Perhaps it's the industry. Perhaps I should leave the USEFUL stuff behind like the actual design and go into a more sales-based role (but then middle-management usually get the chop first during hard times). Even then you're clearing only £60k+ in the UK, and is it worth the hassle? Anywhere even near £100k has to be CEO territory. The £240k figure just seems like la-la land to me. Only attainable if you contract in oil & gas, get insane IT contracts, work in law/politics/council echelons, start your own successful business.

Switching to nuclear/oil&gas will net more, but that is more years of training with the loss of money that goes with that.

I just don't see it....

I wish I found IT interesting, maybe then I'd see some of these big bucks...

I think IF your story is true, and sorry for being a skeptic here but you can understand why, then you have been INSANELY lucky.

Luck certainly comes into it as salaries for the same job can vary widely even in the same country but GBP100k is definitely not CEO territory and certainly not limited to banking or the oil and gas sector where salaries above GBP100k are common and above GBP240k not unheard of. For example a European GM or Project Manager working in the middle east construction sector could easily earn around GBP150k with no tax to pay and construction is not one of the better paying fields.

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Luck certainly comes into it as salaries for the same job can vary widely even in the same country but GBP100k is definitely not CEO territory and certainly not limited to banking or the oil and gas sector where salaries above GBP100k are common and above GBP240k not unheard of. For example a European GM or Project Manager working in the middle east construction sector could easily earn around GBP150k with no tax to pay and construction is not one of the better paying fields.

This is the shape of income distribution in the economy with a central bank running the show -

pp-triangle.gif

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  • 315 Brexit, House prices and Summer 2020

    1. 1. Including the effects Brexit, where do you think average UK house prices will be relative to now in June 2020?


      • down 5% +
      • down 2.5%
      • Even
      • up 2.5%
      • up 5%



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