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Ash4781

Solar Panels

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http://www.which.co.uk/environment-and-saving-energy/energy/guides/how-to-buy-solar-panels/is-solar-pv-a-good-investment/

Are there any 'experts' out there on Solar panels investment modelling?

I've gone through the numbers and they look ok'ish but not great for the risk * without taking into account maintanence costs (no idea for an estimate). If it was financed by an unsecured loan I'm not sure the numbers would work (the bank may say no outright it doesn't work get lost). I guess the solar companies / banks have their own financing arms.

ALso the article suggests the panels haven't been around long enough to judge the effect on property values which to me suggests they ain't going to let you re-mortgage to pay for it. Value increased by the discounted future cashflows or a reduction due to buyers discounting the 'look' of the panels?

On the feed in tarriff which is apparently to fall in 2012 is this as the expected installation costs for new panels fall?

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the inverters will fail.

you will need toclean the panels twice a year.

your roff will leak as the fix through tiles

the feed intarrif will be scrapped as the government runs out of money

anything else?

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As the CEO of a major solar power company in SE Asia, I feel able to comment.

In certain countries, such as Cambodia, where the electricity is as highly priced as it is unreliable, the ROI can be between 9-months and 3-years. Increasingly strategic investments are being made by individuals and corporates in solar in this region and elsewhere. The reasons are obvious to most HPC'ers:

Tangible investment

Inflation-proofing

Yield in an increasing value product for 30-40 years.

Tradability of both the tangible product as well as the Carbon Credits.

Security of infrastructure.

In lower priced electricity markets with more relaible power (such as the UK) the numbers are not as favourable, however in this part of the world it is simply becoming a no-brainer as to where to park your cash.

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As the CEO of a major solar power company in SE Asia, I feel able to comment.

In certain countries, such as Cambodia, where the electricity is as highly priced as it is unreliable, the ROI can be between 9-months and 3-years. Increasingly strategic investments are being made by individuals and corporates in solar in this region and elsewhere. The reasons are obvious to most HPC'ers:

Tangible investment

Inflation-proofing

Yield in an increasing value product for 30-40 years.

Tradability of both the tangible product as well as the Carbon Credits.

Security of infrastructure.

In lower priced electricity markets with more relaible power (such as the UK) the numbers are not as favourable, however in this part of the world it is simply becoming a no-brainer as to where to park your cash.

As the panels become more and more efficient they eventually come to a point where it is cheaper to have them than to buy coal powered energy.I don't think we are at that stage yet but maybe in 5 years we will see this.Personally i am holding off for a little longer , waiting for the tech to improve more.

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Seems to me the whole UK green energy market is massively distorted at the moment - the feed in tariff scheme in combination with the markup on MCS certified installers effectively distorting the whole market.

Think it will be better when this sort of scheme is removed - much better to just remove vat from green energy equipment if the government really want to promote this tech. But then again meddling and creating cartels and market distortion is much more satisfying for them.

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As the CEO of a major solar power company in SE Asia, I feel able to comment.

In certain countries, such as Cambodia, where the electricity is as highly priced as it is unreliable, the ROI can be between 9-months and 3-years. Increasingly strategic investments are being made by individuals and corporates in solar in this region and elsewhere. The reasons are obvious to most HPC'ers:

Tangible investment

Inflation-proofing

Yield in an increasing value product for 30-40 years.

Tradability of both the tangible product as well as the Carbon Credits.

Security of infrastructure.

In lower priced electricity markets with more relaible power (such as the UK) the numbers are not as favourable, however in this part of the world it is simply becoming a no-brainer as to where to park your cash.

Lets not forget that Cambodia is hot and sunny. The UK is one of the one overcast places in the world and when it does get sun it is at a low angle. Since performance is not linear, they won't be generating much at all in the winter.

Another solution for the OP is one of the rent-a-roof schemes. Let some company install their panels on your roof and thus they take all the risk.

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Lets not forget that Cambodia is hot and sunny. The UK is one of the one overcast places in the world and when it does get sun it is at a low angle. Since performance is not linear, they won't be generating much at all in the winter.

Another solution for the OP is one of the rent-a-roof schemes. Let some company install their panels on your roof and thus they take all the risk.

Solar hot water panels do a good job even in our winter. I don't know about the PV panels.

As for rent-a-roof, bear in mind there are half-and-half solutions. You can set up your own company to install, manage, and maintain panels, with the right to the FITs. Then (your) company can raise funds from other investors without signing over your rights to a stranger: just so long as the company structure protects your investors rights to their share of the FITs they'll be happy.

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From past discussions on here I got the impression is was better to wait for the more efficient panels to appear to produce electricity, as the current crop really weren't up to much apart from the summer months?

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Lets not forget that Cambodia is hot and sunny. The UK is one of the one overcast places in the world and when it does get sun it is at a low angle. Since performance is not linear, they won't be generating much at all in the winter.

Another solution for the OP is one of the rent-a-roof schemes. Let some company install their panels on your roof and thus they take all the risk.

Insolation average for Phnom Penh is only 5.5 hours, so it is not as favourable as you might imagine.

Tthe local electricity price and availability is the main issue.

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From past discussions on here I got the impression is was better to wait for the more efficient panels to appear to produce electricity, as the current crop really weren't up to much apart from the summer months?

Incorrect, the current 300W panels are a perfectly good platform.

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From past discussions on here I got the impression is was better to wait for the more efficient panels to appear to produce electricity, as the current crop really weren't up to much apart from the summer months?

You'll wait a long time. I worked on solar panels waaaay back in the 70's. No real improvement since then. Don't see any great leaps forward on the horizon either.

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Nuclear fusion in the sky, causing untold burns to people, real skin burns and real cancers.

Isn't it time we put a stop to this nuclear waste?

Solar power for example could replace this dangerous fuel source.

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Personally i am holding off for a little longer , waiting for the tech to improve more.

The prices have crashed through he floor. A few years ago they were talking about £4 per watt and even now the calculations are based on £2-3 per watt.

Yet if you go look at the web sites (google; solar by the pallet) its coming in at under £1 per watt.

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You'll wait a long time. I worked on solar panels waaaay back in the 70's. No real improvement since then. Don't see any great leaps forward on the horizon either.

Complete and utter rubbish. Are you next going to claim computers are in the same boat, as they are using the same technology?

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The prices have crashed through he floor. A few years ago they were talking about £4 per watt and even now the calculations are based on £2-3 per watt.

Yet if you go look at the web sites (google; solar by the pallet) its coming in at under £1 per watt.

Big price crash within the past year or so, due in part to withdrawal or reduction of government support in several EU countries (reducing demand), and in part to bad government support in the US (flooding supply). Net result: overcapacity and fierce competition in the industry.

Now is a very good time to buy!

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Big price crash within the past year or so, due in part to withdrawal or reduction of government support in several EU countries (reducing demand), and in part to bad government support in the US (flooding supply). Net result: overcapacity and fierce competition in the industry.

Now is a very good time to buy!

Prices have fallen and the cheapest of the cheapest suppliers - the Chinese are in the market - so, at a base level probably not much to be squeezed out of production, material and labour costs. If the recent drop is market related then probably only a matter of time before prices rebound - the other problem is efficiencies of 15-17% is little better than decades ago, this is old tech manufactured on large scale still awaiting a breakthrough (if it comes).

A square M of panel will produce something like 100-200W of power, collect the raw solar power as heat and it is more like 1000W per M. Utilising thermal solar for as much of your heat / hot water requirements as possible is still the way to go, it if only the feed in teriffs that skew the picture.

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Utilising thermal solar for as much of your heat / hot water requirements as possible is still the way to go,

In the depths of winter, certainly. In summer you run into another problem: you're going to generate far more hot water than you can ever use. That's not efficient!

One further proviso: it only works if you have a hot water tank. Preferably a big one. Not every house has space for that!

Solar hot water is ideal for communal provision in an apartment block, or for an institution like a hotel or hospital, or to a lesser extent other commercial buildings. Its efficiency falls off for smaller homes, like my friend G whose system stops producing by 8am on a bright summer morning because her tank is already heated to the maximum!

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[quote name=Oh Well :(' timestamp='1318669131' post='3149185]

the inverters will fail.

you will need toclean the panels twice a year.

your roff will leak as the fix through tiles

the feed intarrif will be scrapped as the government runs out of money

anything else?

You can get invertors on the solar panels.

Central invertors don't fail that often. Cost of new one isn't completely horrendous but would wipe out a chunk of cash.

They should be fixed properly and not just going through tiles. The regs on fitting them is about to change to make them all do them properly

Feed in tarrif might get scrapped but by then there'll be more riots than you can shake a stick at.

If you have a big south facing roof and 12k spare go for it.

They estimate you'll use half the elec you generate during the day and pay you the 3p extra for that (on top of the big chunk per unit you generate) so time everything electrical in your house to happen during sunny weather.

You could go mad and install a 12v battery fed lighting system and use that at night.

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You can get invertors on the solar panels.

Central invertors don't fail that often. Cost of new one isn't completely horrendous but would wipe out a chunk of cash.

They should be fixed properly and not just going through tiles. The regs on fitting them is about to change to make them all do them properly

Feed in tarrif might get scrapped but by then there'll be more riots than you can shake a stick at.

If you have a big south facing roof and 12k spare go for it.

They estimate you'll use half the elec you generate during the day and pay you the 3p extra for that (on top of the big chunk per unit you generate) so time everything electrical in your house to happen during sunny weather.

You could go mad and install a 12v battery fed lighting system and use that at night.

Yep - trick is not to undersize. Undersize = overheat= failure

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In the depths of winter, certainly. In summer you run into another problem: you're going to generate far more hot water than you can ever use. That's not efficient!

One further proviso: it only works if you have a hot water tank. Preferably a big one. Not every house has space for that!

Solar hot water is ideal for communal provision in an apartment block, or for an institution like a hotel or hospital, or to a lesser extent other commercial buildings. Its efficiency falls off for smaller homes, like my friend G whose system stops producing by 8am on a bright summer morning because her tank is already heated to the maximum!

One possible way to utilise this is to dump the surplus down a vertical borehole which is also the heat source for a Ground source heat pump. Its pretty straight fwd to design a system that provides hot water year round and dumps the surplus in a borehole which then massively improves the COP of the heat pump.

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One possible way to utilise this is to dump the surplus down a vertical borehole which is also the heat source for a Ground source heat pump. Its pretty straight fwd to design a system that provides hot water year round and dumps the surplus in a borehole which then massively improves the COP of the heat pump.

Quite a good idea.

The only issue is that it could turn your garden into a giant bog and cause subsidence. That might affect the ROI.

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Quite a good idea.

The only issue is that it could turn your garden into a giant bog and cause subsidence. That might affect the ROI.

Cant see how as no water would be added to the borehole (you basically use a similar slinky as that used for the GSHP.

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One possible way to utilise this is to dump the surplus down a vertical borehole which is also the heat source for a Ground source heat pump. Its pretty straight fwd to design a system that provides hot water year round and dumps the surplus in a borehole which then massively improves the COP of the heat pump.

Was thinking earlier today about temporary collection / storage of heat to aid heat pump efficiency (and reducing scale of eathworks/borehole size to still have a functional system). Hadn't thought about the much longer term (seasonal storage). How efficient would boreholes be though (and how costly), wouldn't you need a really exxtensive array of them to have any chance of properly transferring the heat to the ground? What about a very large underground tank - concrete lined small swimming pool type affair - you could get away with a lot less pipework as a relatively short length in the water and thermal circulation of the water should be very efficient at extrating maximum heat from the heat collectors.

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  • 285 Brexit, House prices and Summer 2020

    1. 1. Including the effects Brexit, where do you think average UK house prices will be relative to now in June 2020?


      • down 5% +
      • down 2.5%
      • Even
      • up 2.5%
      • up 5%



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