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jaspers

The Flood That Never Arrived

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Now that's how you do immigration - a work permit system until the world economy is about to disintegrate. By which point they've all had their fill in other European countries.

Why didn't British politicians think of that? :rolleyes:

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Perhaps the UK Govt was sowing seeds so we can be welcomed as workers in Poland in 20 years' time.

I used to travel a lot to Poland on business around 2005-2008, and the company managers were suffering because in the godforsaken towns where their factories were, all the decent labour was in the UK, they were left with the chavs.

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Poland is a cheap place to live. Even though wages are low, they are increasing. I've yet to meet anyone who aspires to got to the UK to work, wages are higher but the cost and grief are far worse. Its reported that few Poles return from work abroad with savings, its basically an experience but a pointless exercise financially.

and the company managers were suffering because in the godforsaken towns where their factories were, all the decent labour was in the UK, they were left with the chavs.

People in the country side are stuck there because poor infrastructure prevents travel to work. There is a big contrast between the country side and city's (the west of Poland). This is changing, the whole country is being given new roads, the investment is massive (thanks EU/UK).

My farm, for instance, will be within 15 minutes of Krakow from the painful 30-45minutes it is now when the new expressway is built. It will take a few more years but the change will be dramatic. Migration, which has basically stopped, will reverse.

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Poland is a cheap place to live. Even though wages are low, they are increasing. I've yet to meet anyone who aspires to got to the UK to work, wages are higher but the cost and grief are far worse. Its reported that few Poles return from work abroad with savings, its basically an experience but a pointless exercise financially.

People in the country side are stuck there because poor infrastructure prevents travel to work. There is a big contrast between the country side and city's (the west of Poland). This is changing, the whole country is being given new roads, the investment is massive (thanks EU/UK).

My farm, for instance, will be within 15 minutes of Krakow from the painful 30-45minutes it is now when the new expressway is built. It will take a few more years but the change will be dramatic. Migration, which has basically stopped, will reverse.

How good is your Polish?

Some thoughts on the dateability of Polish women would be welcome.

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Poland is a cheap place to live. Even though wages are low, they are increasing. I've yet to meet anyone who aspires to got to the UK to work, wages are higher but the cost and grief are far worse. Its reported that few Poles return from work abroad with savings, its basically an experience but a pointless exercise financially.

People in the country side are stuck there because poor infrastructure prevents travel to work. There is a big contrast between the country side and city's (the west of Poland). This is changing, the whole country is being given new roads, the investment is massive (thanks EU/UK).

My farm, for instance, will be within 15 minutes of Krakow from the painful 30-45minutes it is now when the new expressway is built. It will take a few more years but the change will be dramatic. Migration, which has basically stopped, will reverse.

You sure about that ? I suppose it all depends on what you buy. My pal worked over there for a financial company. Talked to a few locals about it - certainly doesnt sound like they the living is cheap on the wages they get.

My pals job that pays circa 30k in the UK was being done for 8k in Poznan. Going out, meals, beer etc.. is def cheaper than here. But maybe only half the price. Food in supermarkets was cheaper as well butn ot by a huge amount. Clothes, electronics and otehr luxury items were generally more expensive there than in the UK. Property in places outside towns looks to be major cheap. However if you want to work in a city where you can get these sought after high paid 8k per year financial jobs - cost of buying a place is not that mega cheap.

Not lived there myself and this is just from one place I went to that my pal lived in a nd knew a lot of locals. However from this I do not get the impression that Poland is a cheap place to live in the slightest. Well unless you live on a farm in the middle of nowhere and don't do/buy many of the 'normal' things that people like to.

I assume you live there ? Are your experiences much different from noted above ?

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Now that's how you do immigration - a work permit system until the world economy is about to disintegrate. By which point they've all had their fill in other European countries.

Why didn't British politicians think of that? :rolleyes:

They did. They wanted as many people as possible taking state handouts so they'd vote them back in. It workerd a treat. It nearly worked again in 2010.

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How good is your Polish?

Some thoughts on the dateability of Polish women would be welcome.

Polish, Ukranian, Czech women are to men....

As a venus fly trap is to a bluebottle :lol:

Why do you think all the men over there are alcoholics ;)

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Polish, Ukranian, Czech women are to men....

As a venus fly trap is to a bluebottle :lol:

Why do you think all the men over there are alcoholics ;)

All burds are pretty mental. Is there a country in the World where generally they are slightly less mental than everywhere else ?

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All burds are pretty mental. Is there a country in the World where generally they are slightly less mental than everywhere else ?

Romanian women are generally more mental than other women from around the world that is for sure ;)

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Now Germany and Austria -- the only countries in the EU that insisted on a seven-year "protective ban" on the new EU member states from the east that joined in 2004 -- appear to be getting their payback.

"Germany effectively scored an own-goal on itself with the late opening of the labor market," says Tomasz Major, the head of a Polish professional association of employers, without hiding a hint of satisfaction. In the competition for the best minds in Poland, Germany arrived too late.

What nonsense. Germany and Austria played this perfectly. The entire point of the free movement of labour is that it only makes sense between countries that have a somewhat similar level of wages and economic activity. The reason for the waiting period was to allow the Polish economy, which was growing rapidly, to catch up with economies in Western Europe. This was abundantly clear the entire time.

The Labour Party chose to allow open immigration for completely political purposes, even though it was obvious how harmful it would be for the average worker in the UK.

1) Allow open immigration,

2) wait for Tories to rightfully complain,

3) scream "Racist", "Nasty Party" and "Daily Mail" as loud as you can.

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Romanian women are generally more mental than other women from around the world that is for sure ;)

Noted.

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How good is your Polish?

Some thoughts on the dateability of Polish women would be welcome.

Crap, most of the people I speak to, speak English (they get very indignant when they go abroad and the locals cannot speak English, quite funny actually).

Polish women are very nice (I'm married to one), but they are women....

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You sure about that ? I suppose it all depends on what you buy. My pal worked over there for a financial company. Talked to a few locals about it - certainly doesnt sound like they the living is cheap on the wages they get.

My pals job that pays circa 30k in the UK was being done for 8k in Poznan. Going out, meals, beer etc.. is def cheaper than here. But maybe only half the price. Food in supermarkets was cheaper as well butn ot by a huge amount. Clothes, electronics and otehr luxury items were generally more expensive there than in the UK. Property in places outside towns looks to be major cheap. However if you want to work in a city where you can get these sought after high paid 8k per year financial jobs - cost of buying a place is not that mega cheap.

Not lived there myself and this is just from one place I went to that my pal lived in a nd knew a lot of locals. However from this I do not get the impression that Poland is a cheap place to live in the slightest. Well unless you live on a farm in the middle of nowhere and don't do/buy many of the 'normal' things that people like to.

I assume you live there ? Are your experiences much different from noted above ?

Food is very cheap, half UK price or less.. I have farmer as family friends, so food can be completely free. Going out is cheap of course, beer at £1 outside Krakow main square restaurants also cheap.

There are opportunities here that are not possible in the UK. There is very cheap property in the country side that is being opened up by better roads. Parents bought 1ha for for £14K house plus brick triple garage, workshop (its miles for a city though)

My farm cost £35K with 2.8 ha, basically less than the rebuilding cost. Now I find out they will metal the rough track and make my land worth 5x as much as its build-able. The new expressway will make it a short commute (12-20min) to the whole of Krakow (which is a major outsourcing centre for IBM, KPMG etc companies). There is quite a lot of expats here, wages in Warsaw are much higher and managers and above get Western European level wages (even Poles).

Building costs are low and predictable and there is lots available of building land; also getting change of use from farm land to building land is not too difficult if its adjacent to building land. If you are a farmer (over 3.5ha I think) you can build what you want - but you need a permit to buy farm land until 2016 (when its a free for all for all of the EU). The farming is good too. Poland is the third biggest farming country in the EU by area, after Spain and France.

Buying an apartment in town is not very cheap, but its getting cheaper by 10% per year. 5-8K pln per M2 at present in Krakow. Our center of town apartment is 70M and valued at about £100k. The plus side is that its a great city to live in and I've never regretted leaving Battersea (which is also a great place to live).

Ukraine seems a stunning place also.

Dirt poor, absolutely terrible infrastructure and far too much like Russian for my liking.

Edit: I should point out, I work via the internet and intend to become a farmer, getting a job and the pay levels here are outside my experience.

Edited by Peter Hun

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You sure about that ? I suppose it all depends on what you buy. My pal worked over there for a financial company. Talked to a few locals about it - certainly doesnt sound like they the living is cheap on the wages they get.

Produce from local markets is still cheap, but anything bought in supermarkets, or any international brands of consumer goods, cost the same as in the UK. In fact things tend to be even more expensive than in the UK, as Polish VAT is higher and has fewer exeptions. Furthermore, at least in rural areas, there is very little competition, so supermarkets do not have any of the BOGOFs or other offers that we get in the UK. On local wages or pensions, the UK-style prices in the shops are very high.

Also there is a vast difference between ‘Poland A’ (Warsaw, and to some extent the other big cities) and ‘Poland B’ (the rural and post-industrial backwaters), at least in terms of earnings. It’s kind of like the difference between London and the rest of the UK, but much more so.

Admittedly I don’t live there, but Mrs Hillbilly goes once or twice a year to visit her family who, unfortunately, all live in Poland B.

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Food is very cheap, half UK price or less.. I have farmer as family friends, so food can be completely free. Going out is cheap of course, beer at £1 outside Krakow main square restaurants also cheap.

There are opportunities here that are not possible in the UK. There is very cheap property in the country side that is being opened up by better roads. Parents bought 1ha for for £14K house plus brick triple garage, workshop (its miles for a city though)

My farm cost £35K with 2.8 ha, basically less than the rebuilding cost. Now I find out they will metal the rough track and make my land worth 5x as much as its build-able. The new expressway will make it a short commute (12-20min) to the whole of Krakow (which is a major outsourcing centre for IBM, KPMG etc companies). There is quite a lot of expats here, wages in Warsaw are much higher and managers and above get Western European level wages (even Poles).

Building costs are low and predictable and there is lots available of building land; also getting change of use from farm land to building land is not too difficult if its adjacent to building land. If you are a farmer (over 3.5ha I think) you can build what you want - but you need a permit to buy farm land until 2016 (when its a free for all for all of the EU). The farming is good too. Poland is the third biggest farming country in the EU by area, after Spain and France.

Buying an apartment in town is not very cheap, but its getting cheaper by 10% per year. 5-8K pln per M2 at present in Krakow. Our center of town apartment is 70M and valued at about £100k. The plus side is that its a great city to live in and I've never regretted leaving Battersea (which is also a great place to live).

Dirt poor, absolutely terrible infrastructure and far too much like Russian for my liking.

Edit: I should point out, I work via the internet and intend to become a farmer, getting a job and the pay levels here are outside my experience.

Thanks for the info. I heard Krakow is class too. Although their football hooligans are apparently something else. Caused all sorts of bother in Dundee this year of all places :lol:

I just wonder if for your average bod living in an average town in Poland living is actually cheaper - in comparison to their wages, to here. I am not so sure.

And management getting Western European wages in Finance firms ? Certainly not the case for the one my pal worked at. Massive difference. Others may be different though.

Produce from local markets is still cheap, but anything bought in supermarkets, or any international brands of consumer goods, cost the same as in the UK. In fact things tend to be even more expensive than in the UK, as Polish VAT is higher and has fewer exeptions. Furthermore, at least in rural areas, there is very little competition, so supermarkets do not have any of the BOGOFs or other offers that we get in the UK. On local wages or pensions, the UK-style prices in the shops are very high.

Also there is a vast difference between 'Poland A' (Warsaw, and to some extent the other big cities) and 'Poland B' (the rural and post-industrial backwaters), at least in terms of earnings. It's kind of like the difference between London and the rest of the UK, but much more so.

Admittedly I don't live there, but Mrs Hillbilly goes once or twice a year to visit her family who, unfortunately, all live in Poland B.

Yes it does appear if you want land in a place outside the cities there are opportunities that do not exist in the UK. However how many people actually want that ?

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' Germans suffering from a reputation for stingy wages and lousy working conditions. '

Is this true......!?

In lower level manufacturing/labourer Type jobs, probably. For tradesman jobs, the problem is more regulations.

If you take the cliche example of the polish plumber. If he wanted.to work in Germany, he would need to get an accreditation as such, which means a 3 year apprenticeship, during which he'd get paid essentially nothing. And getting these apprenticeship places is quite difficult. After that, he could make a good salary, but would still not have the right to independently work as a self-employment plumber. That would require another 5 years of employment and an examination. In theory, some foreign qualifications are accepted, but that is quite difficult and requires a long bureaucratic procedure.

If he wants to work in the UK as a plumber, he can pretty much open a company, put an ad on the web and work self-employed straight away (maybe spending 2-3 months to get an official qualification, if he wants to).

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In lower level manufacturing/labourer Type jobs, probably. For tradesman jobs, the problem is more regulations.

If you take the cliche example of the polish plumber. If he wanted.to work in Germany, he would need to get an accreditation as such, which means a 3 year apprenticeship, during which he'd get paid essentially nothing. And getting these apprenticeship places is quite difficult. After that, he could make a good salary, but would still not have the right to independently work as a self-employment plumber. That would require another 5 years of employment and an examination. In theory, some foreign qualifications are accepted, but that is quite difficult and requires a long bureaucratic procedure.

If he wants to work in the UK as a plumber, he can pretty much open a company, put an ad on the web and work self-employed straight away (maybe spending 2-3 months to get an official qualification, if he wants to).

Not difficult to see why the standard of work in Germany is generally higher.

Then again - the ease of starting something up in the UK can also be a good thing. Suppose a balance is required - somehow.

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' Germans suffering from a reputation for stingy wages and lousy working conditions. '

Is this true......!?

Apparently so, speaking to a taxi driver who works there, he said Poles can last a month before coming back home in disgust. The wife was quite vacal about this, its seems it a wildely held view. Quite a lot of Poles speak German.

Thanks for the info. I heard Krakow is class too. Although their football hooligans are apparently something else. Caused all sorts of bother in Dundee this year of all places :lol:

I just wonder if for your average bod living in an average town in Poland living is actually cheaper - in comparison to their wages, to here. I am not so sure.

And management getting Western European wages in Finance firms ? Certainly not the case for the one my pal worked at. Massive difference. Others may be different though.

The Football fans are gangsters, they deal drugs and other crime. Due to the history of Police oppressing during the Russian occupation the Police cannot/will not suppress football hooliganism.

From what I've seen, people think 2500/month is a good wage here. I have friends who have saved money and are buying apartments in their late twenties while being paid that.

The info about management pay came from a survey on WBJ.

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Not difficult to see why the standard of work in Germany is generally higher.

Then again - the ease of starting something up in the UK can also be a good thing. Suppose a balance is required - somehow.

Its not just that, the Germans treat Poles like shit.

In lower level manufacturing/labourer Type jobs, probably. For tradesman jobs, the problem is more regulations.

The Poles have lots of technical and educated people who the Germans would like to employ, however they can't attract them.

Edited by Peter Hun

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  • 284 Brexit, House prices and Summer 2020

    1. 1. Including the effects Brexit, where do you think average UK house prices will be relative to now in June 2020?


      • down 5% +
      • down 2.5%
      • Even
      • up 2.5%
      • up 5%



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