Why Do Some Think The Tories Are Nasty, Uncaring, Etc?

[Injin]

Perhaps, then, the question should be "why do people think the Tory's have a monopoly on being nasty and uncaring etc.?"

Good question.

Because i'l happily agree that the labour and liberals are complete assholes.

The reason is pretty simple - they pander more to the apparent interests of the average spod and are from the same social classes as them so aren't as jarringly alien when they open their mouths and talk. The tories look and sound like rich people come to make your life a bit more shit for a few more quid with little prospect of you getting something back off them. And they are.

[PopGun]

Politicians.

If not 1%ers they are their lackeys.

This, in a nutshell.

[Injin]

Even IF all true she also was probably the second most important person in winning the cold war.......which trumps everything you said.

Kind of like churchill. Sure there are some left wing lunatics who abuse the greatest briton in history, but 99% of people realise that whatever their political views (economically left or right) churchill was a great PM

Pfft.

Churchill was a monster.

[Rain'ard]

Even IF all true she also was probably the second most important person in winning the cold war.......which trumps everything you said.

Kind of like churchill. Sure there are some left wing lunatics who abuse the greatest briton in history, but 99% of people realise that whatever their political views (economically left or right) churchill was a great PM

If you view the cold war as an economic war then we have won nothing. Capitalism is now at its lowest ebb and we find we are looking the most populated communist country to bail the rest of the world out. Capitalism has approached its margin of self limiting nature. De-regulation meant chaos and we've got it. Reagan and Mrs T springs to mind.

[Game_Over]

There were some that benefited hugely under Mrs T mostly those that lived in the south east...whilst others in other parts of the country went though some very tough times indeed.

Governments have to be seen to treat the people fairly...wherever they may live....an elephant never forgets.

I grew up in a working class town in the North West of England and had just started working in 1979.

I was able to get a reasonable job and bought and paid off a 5 bed detached house.

Millions of ordinary people who were prepared to work hard did very well thanks to Mrs T

As did my home town.

After 13 years of Nu Labour it is now a complete sh*thole

and ordinary people are poorer than they have ever been

If the Tories are the nasty party how come the poor got poorer under Labour and social mobility went into reverse?

[Injin]

I grew up in a working class town in the North West of England and had just started working in 1979.

I was able to get a reasonable job and bought and paid off a 5 bed detached house.

Millions of ordinary people who were prepared to work hard did very well thanks to Mrs T

As did my home town.

After 13 years of Nu Labour it is now a complete sh*thole

and ordinary people are poorer than they have ever been

If the Tories are the nasty party how come the poor got poorer under Labour and social mobility went into reverse?

Social mobility didn't go into reverse, it carried on it's inexorable decline that it's been on since the 50's.

Thatch massively expanded the state and the money supply and government borrowing, any benefit you got out of her reign had is now to be paid back, with interest. She also wasted the north sea oil revenues. I understand you aren't interested in any of truth on this issue though, preferring to cheer on the blue team rather than realise every single politician ever is criminal scum.

[robo1968]

1. There is a thread on this site posted today quoting the public sector cutbacks might be 50% higher than first thought.

2. The rich don't need any more tax breaks . There have not been any major rises for them either like there have been for the poor and average.

3. Have you figures to prove that ? Only my own opnion but the gap is growing at a massive rate.

4. Well they don't need to do they queues of people for every job destroyes workers rights with out them having to lift a finger.

Plus .

U Turn Dave and IDS always digging out the unemployed when it is plain for everyone to see that there is a shortgage of jobs and more people than jobs , so x amount are always going to miss out . They speak on the subject as if there are millions of empty jobs.

U Turn Dave who does not have a clue about being hard up telling people to pay off their debt's.

9k a year tuition fees .

The HB cuts really are a kick in the bollo-ks for any people without kids who are under 35, take a look.

Maybe that is some of the reasons.

Yeah it's a shame Balls isn't in charge of the economy, none of this would be happening right now would it....

I think the Tories are labelled nasty because they have to clear up the mess Labour leaves behind, never the easiest or most popular job.

This time they can't do it, they spent too long f**king it up and there is no practical way back

[winkie]

If the Tories are the nasty party how come the poor got poorer under Labour and social mobility went into reverse?

I have not said anything about the tories being the nasty party.......I prefer them to new labour who didn't do a thing to control the unregulated debt situation who expanded the public sector beyond the realms of affordability, who did nothing but spout lip-service at a cost yet again to the tax payer to help small businesses without doing anything constructive to help them. Who wasted tax payers money in the town halls as if there was no tomorrow....who created reams of rules and unnecessary regulations and stupid time consuming targets and tick boxes to get in the way of any kind of progress. Who dampened down and paid off certain people in society with money/welfare then turned a blind eye to them, trying to ignore a big problem the rest of us could clearly see but was not being addressed correctly......shall I go on?

None of them are perfect....but some are more perfect than others.

Edited October 11, 2011 by winkie

[Injin]

Yeah it's a shame Balls isn't in charge of the economy, none of this would be happening right now would it....

I think the Tories are labelled nasty because they have to clear up the mess Labour leaves behind, never the easiest or most popular job.

This time they can't do it, they spent too long f**king it up and there is no practical way back

More PR nonsense.

The tories have never cleared up after labour. They rearrange the finances so they get the bulk of the current tax take and kick the can down the road via deficit financing and arsing about with the money supply.

Being potless and in a recession because some aristo twunt and his mates have stolen all the loot isn't the same as economic fundamentals being sorted. it just feels like it - and boy do the tories cash in on that.

[SHERWICK]

The legend of mrs T, maybe, not the reality.

Get it right

Mrs T -

Grew the state.

Increased regulation.

Bailed out a bank.

Put taxes up.

Reduced social and political freedom.

Started the borrowing binge that's just now leading to state failure and bank collapse.

She also cracked of the monetarist ******** that's seeing us drowning in fiat.

Supported people like pinochet, while having people who diagreed with her at home kidnapped, assaulted, marginalised.

Good PR on the women, she's actually one of histories monsters.

Yeah, but but apart from all that she was really good.

[Game_Over]

Social mobility didn't go into reverse, it carried on it's inexorable decline that it's been on since the 50's.

Thatch massively expanded the state and the money supply and government borrowing, any benefit you got out of her reign had is now to be paid back, with interest. She also wasted the north sea oil revenues. I understand you aren't interested in any of truth on this issue though, preferring to cheer on the blue team rather than realise every single politician ever is criminal scum.

I still own a 5 bed detached house and I still have a large amount of savings thanks to Mrs T so

If I get 30 or 40 years of prosperity thanks to Mrs T then I feel I owe her some sort of loyalty.

The truth of the issue is

Someone will always be in charge

And these people will always use their position to their own advantage

The only choice is between systems and which you believe brings the greatest benefit and happiness to the greatest number.

I am very interested in history and have studied the 20th Century extensively and the one lesson is that Socialism always ends in tyranny and economic failure.

The proof is in the pudding and when the world was divided between East and West millions of people risked death to get to the West

how many people went the other way?

[Injin]

I still own a 5 bed detached house and I still have a large amount of savings thanks to Mrs T so

If I get 30 or 40 years of prosperity thanks to Mrs T then I feel I owe her some sort of loyalty.

You didn't get it off mrs T, you got it off whoever she stole the money from.

The truth of the issue is

Someone will always be in charge

And these people will always use their position to their own advantage

The only choice is between systems and which you believe brings the greatest benefit and happiness to the greatest number.

I am very interested in history and have studied the 20th Century extensively and the one lesson is that Socialism always ends in tyranny and economic failure.

The proof is in the pudding and when the world was divided between East and West millions of people risked death to get to the West

how many people went the other way?

Socialism? Nope.

Statism.

Thatcher is a statist. Pro big government, pro violent coercion, pro intervention, pro theft, pro murder.

Simple fact is she's a monster, they all are.

[Game_Over]

Good question.

Because i'l happily agree that the labour and liberals are complete assholes.

The reason is pretty simple - they pander more to the apparent interests of the average spod and are from the same social classes as them so aren't as jarringly alien when they open their mouths and talk. The tories look and sound like rich people come to make your life a bit more shit for a few more quid with little prospect of you getting something back off them. And they are.

Basically you have made an art form of sitting on the fence

It is very easy and intellectually lazy to say that all politicians and systems are as bad as each other.

Like most people here I realise that we only have a choice between the devil and the deep blue sea

what I am arguing is that a smaller state and drastically reduced welfare is the least worst option

Not that it is perfect or even particularly desirable

It is just better than the alternative which is tyranny and economic failure.

Your answer appears to be - their is no answer

[Georgia O'Keeffe]

I still own a 5 bed detached house and I still have a large amount of savings thanks to Mrs T so

If I get 30 or 40 years of prosperity thanks to Mrs T then I feel I owe her some sort of loyalty.

The truth of the issue is

Someone will always be in charge

And these people will always use their position to their own advantage

The only choice is between systems and which you believe brings the greatest benefit and happiness to the greatest number.

I am very interested in history and have studied the 20th Century extensively and the one lesson is that Socialism always ends in tyranny and economic failure.

The proof is in the pudding and when the world was divided between East and West millions of people risked death to get to the West

how many people went the other way?

Ahh thats the nub of it because of a simple consequence of timing in a debt cycle you did alright under the Tories so can happily ignore them being the initiators of the mortgage/private debt crisis, on that reckoning you have no place to dismiss Labour Supporters who are using the same blunt tool, loads of people did relatively well under Labour and they are as willing to ignore this crisis is a combined product of both parties as much as each other.

I did pretty goddarn well under Nu labour through an accident of birth date, it doesnt change the underlying fundamentals that they are just as corrupt and inept as the lot they followed

Edited October 11, 2011 by Tamara De Lempicka

[robo1968]

More PR nonsense.

The tories have never cleared up after labour. They rearrange the finances so they get the bulk of the current tax take and kick the can down the road via deficit financing and arsing about with the money supply.

Being potless and in a recession because some aristo twunt and his mates have stolen all the loot isn't the same as economic fundamentals being sorted. it just feels like it - and boy do the tories cash in on that.

There's no pleasing some people is there

Being potless and being in a recession is down to how you live your life...not the Tories fault

[robo1968]

I did pretty goddarn well under Nu labour, it doesnt change the underlying fundamentals that they are just as corrupt and inept as the lot they followed

I did very well under Labour but would have much rather have done just ok and not seen them ruin the country.

[Game_Over]

You didn't get it off mrs T, you got it off whoever she stole the money from.

Socialism? Nope.

Statism.

Thatcher is a statist. Pro big government, pro violent coercion, pro intervention, pro theft, pro murder.

Simple fact is she's a monster, they all are.

Perhaps I got it by generating real wealth.

And people actually do not mind governments taking a fair cut of their income if the government creates an environment in which they can thrive and prosper.

Socialists begin by stealing 'rich' peoples money

and then when there are no rich people left they are forced to steal poor peoples wealth at the point of a gun.

To be fair to Nu Labour they did understand that wealth had to be encouraged in order to provide greater tax revenues

Trouble is, instead of investing the money they p*ssed it up the wall.

[Injin]

There's no pleasing some people is there

I'm hapopy with truth and facts.

Being potless and being in a recession is down to how you live your life...not the Tories fault

Insanely optimistic view of human potential aside, this is economic illiteracy. Governments (of all colours) can and do wipe out whole ways of life with the stroke of a pen and theres nothing you can do about it.

[kazap]

As the title...

I believe in the idea that people think their actions will have a positive outcome. So although we will always disagree with one party or another, I do believe that each party genuinely believes that their ideology is the best for everyone. At the end of the day, to get re-elected, they need things to work out.

So if tax cuts are brought in for the "rich" it will be in the belief that this encourages wealth creation. Cutting benefits can be done to discourage a "scrounger" society. You know the arguments - I won't go into it.

I find it very hard to believe that these people go into politics to help give their rich buddies an easy time. If it were just about greed surely they would have gone into banking etc, after all with their backgrounds they would have rolled into top jobs.

There will always be an ongoing debate between the right and left but I don't think "nastiness" comes into myself.

[Injin]

Basically you have made an art form of sitting on the fence

I wouldn't have called advocating a complete dismaneling of the state, and end to all use of violence in human relationships, an end to the land cartel and central banking "sitting on he fence" tbh.

But if you can back up what you are saying in light of that, I really am all ears. I didn't realise that anarcho capitalism was mainstream politics these days. Did everyone grow a brain while I was asleep last night, or are you just making a really shit argument because you are lost when faced with actual logic, facts and principles?

[Rain'ard]

I grew up in a working class town in the North West of England and had just started working in 1979.

I was able to get a reasonable job and bought and paid off a 5 bed detached house.

Millions of ordinary people who were prepared to work hard did very well thanks to Mrs T

As did my home town.

After 13 years of Nu Labour it is now a complete sh*thole

and ordinary people are poorer than they have ever been

If the Tories are the nasty party how come the poor got poorer under Labour and social mobility went into reverse?

I know people who have achieved similar results as you, and some had no regard or even a dislike for her . In fact one was an estate agent and Tory Councillor. He surprised me by even making her policies instrumental to his downfall. I think you have enlightened me as to how diverse political opinion can be

[Game_Over]

Ahh thats the nub of it because of a simple consequence of timing in a debt cycle you did alright under the Tories so can happily ignore them being the initiators of the mortgage/private debt crisis, on that reckoning you have no place to dismiss Labour Supporters who are using the same blunt tool, loads of people did relatively well under Labour and they are as willing to ignore this crisis is a combined product of both parties as much as each other.

I did pretty goddarn well under Nu labour through an accident of birth date, it doesnt change the underlying fundamentals that they are just as corrupt and inept as the lot they followed

Actually I am not happy with the current Conservative government, or the policies followed by all politicians in Europe, both left and right over the last few decades.

What we are really arguing about is the way forward

And whether by doing what needs to be done the Conservatives are being 'nasty'

To be perfectly honest, I consider this concept to be a joke

because they are actually still increasing spending.

If people on the left here think the Conservatives are 'nasty' they should thank their lucky stars I'm not running the country

[Injin]

Perhaps I got it by generating real wealth.

If that's true, your prosperity cannot be anything to do with thatcher, as she only stole from people.

And people actually do not mind governments taking a fair cut of their income if the government creates an environment in which they can thrive and prosper.

Socialists begin by stealing 'rich' peoples money

and then when there are no rich people left they are forced to steal poor peoples wealth at the point of a gun.

To be fair to Nu Labour they did understand that wealth had to be encouraged in order to provide greater tax revenues

Trouble is, instead of investing the money they p*ssed it up the wall.

For some reason you think that the tories don't also steal until the economy collapses.

Statism is the problem, socialism is just a subset, as is conservatism. Thatcher stole from the rich, the poor, the old, the sick, she nicked from everyone. And ofc, that theft grew and grew and grew, as it always does.

[IWantItNow]

Tories are high tax and low spending on social stuff, you'd have to be an idiot to prefer it to high tax high spending on social stuff if you are an average taxpayer. Option 1 is dipshit socialists stealing your money and then spending back vaguely near you on harebrained schemes...

Not sure about that. I'd rather someone taxed me and kept the money than tax me, employ someone to sniff my waste disposal and then charge me for not taking care of what I put in it.

[Injin]

Actually I am not happy with the current Conservative government, or the policies followed by all politicians in Europe, both left and right over the last few decades.

What we are really arguing about is the way forward

And whether by doing what needs to be done the Conservatives are being 'nasty'

To be perfectly honest, I consider this concept to be a joke

because they are actually still increasing spending.

If people on the left here think the Conservatives are 'nasty' they should thank their lucky stars I'm not running the country

What people on the left?

There aren't any!

Labour now are far to the right of most tory governments between 1910 and 1979.

What you are going to ge is state failure. The last person with enough power to stop the growth of the state was thatcher, and she failed, she very briefly slowed the growth of the state before faltering and letting it rip. mind you, getting her hotel blown up might have been a sign to not be so strident.