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This thread hasn't been consigned to the off topic forum yet? Mods, you know the drill.

Sheesh, it's like a mumsnet thread on acid.

Get a friggin' grip men.

Hugz xxx(can't find the embarassed heart smiley)MODS!!

RFD loved your posts since you were Jazz matey from The Fast show!

Yeah it's f8cked but a reality check is needed, back to basics may not be such a bad thing...

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Ps. Dissident junk, just read your post - that is basically what I'm saying. I have travelled to a few places with my work, currently in Azerbaijan where the population is bright and motivated (in Baku at any rate).... Let these people go on the world stage and you are toast [if you are one of the ones that doesn't get it/ can't be arsed to work or make an effort]. the era of free stuff is over but thats no bad thing.

People in the east have had, or will shorty have the dead hand of socialism removed from their shoulders

and as a result they will thrive and flourish.

In the west, the state has killed capitalism and until we have some kind of major reset our economies will continue to stagnate.

The rays of hope are the Tea Party movement in the US

and the possible collapse of the EU.

:blink:

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The rays of hope are the Tea Party movement in the US

You refer here to the Kochsuckers? How will this hopelessly compromised bunch of right wing nut cases save the world?

Whatever spark of revolutionary life they might have represented has now been absorbed by the establishment you blame for the problems- they have been assimilated.

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Ps. Dissident junk, just read your post - that is basically what I'm saying. I have travelled to a few places with my work, currently in Azerbaijan where the population is bright and motivated (in Baku at any rate).... Let these people go on the world stage and you are toast [if you are one of the ones that doesn't get it/ can't be arsed to work or make an effort]. the era of free stuff is over but thats no bad thing.

Yep, these people are motivated. But they also seem really personally empowered (to use a crappy phrase) whereas so many young people in Britain just do not seem to be anymore. And I did suspect that it could be because there is a lot of subtle freedom in day to day choices, freedom of a kind we no longer have in Britain.

One telling example of this was when I saw three young people on a moped travelling down Hamra street; the two girls were sat on the back, wearing no helmets, tiny miniskirts and spike heels. As they passed, the old timers just chuckled and the checkpoint soldiers smiled.

Something like that would never happen in Britain -- they would be stopped or reported. And yes, it is "irresponsible" behaviour, but there was something about this incident that seemed to exemplify a kind of freedom we no longer have in Britain, a freedom that also creates a kind of dynamism -- maybe, a freedom to make choices that might ****** up badly, but then again might not, and that it is your own fault if they do mess up.

I was talking to an older chap who travels between the ME and Britain, and he said something really interesting. We were talking about the London riots and he said that in his view, British teenagers and youngsters were seriously repressed compared to young people in Med countries, that they had no true freedom, and that was why they went mental when they were let off the leash: causing chaos on foreign holidays, getting utterly catatonic in town centres on a weekend. And I could really see the truth behind this. I am older, but even I notice the overbearing sense of "conformity" in the way you are forced to think, behave, dress, act in Britain these days, and I have other expat friends that have become really alarmed by this change in the last ten years.

Perhaps because they haven't got music plugs in their ears; aren't texting and aren't on Facebook?

But they are! A significant percentage of the young people I met had facebook profiles, they had phones, but it wasn't something they hid behind, it didn't replace normal social interaction.

We have lost something in Britain and I can't quite put my finger on it. If I was pushed, I would say that Britain stopped being a country of real people, and, instead, became a faceless corporate entity with units of labour treated as though they were economic batteries.

I have to say, this time, when I came back to Britain, a creeping realisation began to edge its way into my head. Now I am no SWPer, or radical leftie, or rightwing libertarian. I don't obsessively listen to Alex Jones or have an entire shelf of David Icke, or read the Socialist Worker...

... but this time, I realised that Britain does now feel like a kind of "soft" fascist country. I cannot explain what it is exactly, it is very subtle, but it is definitely there. I only potently see it after I have been elsewhere in the world; even places with a significantly militarised presence do not feel as insidiously authoritarian and conformist as Britain does now.

It is something about, well, I can't remember the last time I felt that a civic, public or governmental institution was, fundamentally, on my side. In fact, I now avoid all of them because I feel they distinctly aren't on my side, that they are "anti" people like me, and this applies to the police and the NHS.

I also see that there is very little freedom of expression in Britain now: there is hardly any real diversity of opinion presented or even allowed outside a very narrow range (the BBC reaction to Alessio Rastani was very telling in this regard; there was an immediate "moral" reaction to what he said on the part of the presenters, followed by sneering when the interview finished -- this attitude, to my mind, is one of the ways different perspectives from different positions are being "policed").

And I think that it was only the cheap money boom that covered this over, or allowed it to grow unchecked -- it is almost as though there has been a kind of establishment coup behind our backs. Unfortunately, now the money has gone, I think we are going to be left with a kind of hard repressive atmosphere. I think we will end up living in a kind of 1984.

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you (i mean the stupid public) will only see the first signs of this great depression when they see the first initial KFC drive throughs become boarded up. that will be the signal thats the easiest to see in all this fug and smoke.

look for it. look for the boards and the decaying sign of the colonels enthusiastic 1950s face. his eye smashed by thrown rocks for pleasure and the interior destroyed by rough sleepers and thieves. the fire burned buildings around the fringes of industrial sites to costly to clean up aside from looters of raw scrap. the graffiti and the thrill of a emergency vehicle mechanically unable to respond to a serious incident.

even two fairly highly ranked police officers i know are leaving. they are simply leaving.

You live next door in Salford dontcha. How will you tell the difference?

;)

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@ dissident junk Post 139,

Well said that man, you have just put into words the creepy feeling I have had since I moved back from the states, There is almost a soft fascism about the place, that has only been heightened by the complete and total similarity of the governments in power since I got back (different colour, same old flavour!) And the fact that everyone seems to be scared of something now, I can see it in their eyes, If you ask them they don't know why or even if they are, but its there nonetheless.

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We just had a cracking sunny hot weekend, to which this screwed up thread is the perfect antidote. In all probability none of this sh!t will happen, best not to spend your lives thinking about it. What a waste. Yet it sums up the crappy HPC vibe. I'm falling out of love, may come back here from time to time in the future, or I may not in which case: adieu guys, please think about the positives in life too.

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You refer here to the Kochsuckers? How will this hopelessly compromised bunch of right wing nut cases save the world?

Whatever spark of revolutionary life they might have represented has now been absorbed by the establishment you blame for the problems- they have been assimilated.

Hook, line and sinker :lol:

But seriously - if you think the answer is more Socialism you are going to be extremely disappointed.

The answer is a smaller state, lower taxes and minimal welfare.

The US copied the European model and was brought to its knees,

but the US will recover faster and emerge stronger because it has founding principles to which it will return.

Hopefully the UK will follow this lead, because the European model of state control of all aspects of peoples lives can only deliver authoritarianism and economic failure

:blink:

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We just had a cracking sunny hot weekend, to which this screwed up thread is the perfect antidote. In all probability none of this sh!t will happen, best not to spend your lives thinking about it. What a waste. Yet it sums up the crappy HPC vibe. I'm falling out of love, may come back here from time to time in the future, or I may not in which case: adieu guys, please think about the positives in life too.

You can check out any time you like - but you can never leave..........

Because your whole life is about to turn into a House Price Crash thread

Adios!

:lol:

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Yep, these people are motivated. But they also seem really personally empowered (to use a crappy phrase) whereas so many young people in Britain just do not seem to be anymore. And I did suspect that it could be because there is a lot of subtle freedom in day to day choices, freedom of a kind we no longer have in Britain.

One telling example of this was when I saw three young people on a moped travelling down Hamra street; the two girls were sat on the back, wearing no helmets, tiny miniskirts and spike heels. As they passed, the old timers just chuckled and the checkpoint soldiers smiled.

Something like that would never happen in Britain -- they would be stopped or reported. And yes, it is "irresponsible" behaviour, but there was something about this incident that seemed to exemplify a kind of freedom we no longer have in Britain, a freedom that also creates a kind of dynamism -- maybe, a freedom to make choices that might ****** up badly, but then again might not, and that it is your own fault if they do mess up.

I was talking to an older chap who travels between the ME and Britain, and he said something really interesting. We were talking about the London riots and he said that in his view, British teenagers and youngsters were seriously repressed compared to young people in Med countries, that they had no true freedom, and that was why they went mental when they were let off the leash: causing chaos on foreign holidays, getting utterly catatonic in town centres on a weekend. And I could really see the truth behind this. I am older, but even I notice the overbearing sense of "conformity" in the way you are forced to think, behave, dress, act in Britain these days, and I have other expat friends that have become really alarmed by this change in the last ten years.

But they are! A significant percentage of the young people I met had facebook profiles, they had phones, but it wasn't something they hid behind, it didn't replace normal social interaction.

We have lost something in Britain and I can't quite put my finger on it. If I was pushed, I would say that Britain stopped being a country of real people, and, instead, became a faceless corporate entity with units of labour treated as though they were economic batteries.

I have to say, this time, when I came back to Britain, a creeping realisation began to edge its way into my head. Now I am no SWPer, or radical leftie, or rightwing libertarian. I don't obsessively listen to Alex Jones or have an entire shelf of David Icke, or read the Socialist Worker...

... but this time, I realised that Britain does now feel like a kind of "soft" fascist country. I cannot explain what it is exactly, it is very subtle, but it is definitely there. I only potently see it after I have been elsewhere in the world; even places with a significantly militarised presence do not feel as insidiously authoritarian and conformist as Britain does now.

It is something about, well, I can't remember the last time I felt that a civic, public or governmental institution was, fundamentally, on my side. In fact, I now avoid all of them because I feel they distinctly aren't on my side, that they are "anti" people like me, and this applies to the police and the NHS.

I also see that there is very little freedom of expression in Britain now: there is hardly any real diversity of opinion presented or even allowed outside a very narrow range (the BBC reaction to Alessio Rastani was very telling in this regard; there was an immediate "moral" reaction to what he said on the part of the presenters, followed by sneering when the interview finished -- this attitude, to my mind, is one of the ways different perspectives from different positions are being "policed").

And I think that it was only the cheap money boom that covered this over, or allowed it to grow unchecked -- it is almost as though there has been a kind of establishment coup behind our backs. Unfortunately, now the money has gone, I think we are going to be left with a kind of hard repressive atmosphere. I think we will end up living in a kind of 1984.

What happened was 13 years of Socialism.

And that is why everyone in Eastern Europe feels suddenly free

because the USSR collapsed.

If you want the same sense of freedom in Western Europe you would have to dismantle the EU

:blink:

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A turning point seemed to be early in NuLabour's time when that very elderly Labour man shouted out "rubbish" at a Labour conference and was immediately ejected by a crowd of burly bouncers (blimey he'd heckled). Now at all conferences the people in the audience just sit meekly - clapping to order.

Another new thing over recent years is bouncers almost at every turn. So many in black and lots of them with those armbands, almost everywhere - from supermarkets to corner shops to night clubs etc etc. Sometimes 2 or 3.

Then there's the CCTV cameras etc. What about the council bin snoopers :rolleyes:

Edited by billybong

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... but this time, I realised that Britain does now feel like a kind of "soft" fascist country. I cannot explain what it is exactly, it is very subtle, but it is definitely there. I only potently see it after I have been elsewhere in the world; even places with a significantly militarised presence do not feel as insidiously authoritarian and conformist as Britain does now.

It is something about, well, I can't remember the last time I felt that a civic, public or governmental institution was, fundamentally, on my side. In fact, I now avoid all of them because I feel they distinctly aren't on my side, that they are "anti" people like me, and this applies to the police and the NHS.

I also see that there is very little freedom of expression in Britain now: there is hardly any real diversity of opinion presented or even allowed outside a very narrow range (the BBC reaction to Alessio Rastani was very telling in this regard; there was an immediate "moral" reaction to what he said on the part of the presenters, followed by sneering when the interview finished -- this attitude, to my mind, is one of the ways different perspectives from different positions are being "policed").

And I think that it was only the cheap money boom that covered this over, or allowed it to grow unchecked -- it is almost as though there has been a kind of establishment coup behind our backs. Unfortunately, now the money has gone, I think we are going to be left with a kind of hard repressive atmosphere. I think we will end up living in a kind of 1984.

Really interesting post.

The reality is that we have sleepwalked into a society that is amongst the most watched and controlled in the 'free' world. There are cameras everywhere, backed up by uncounted petty laws and injunctions that are in turn given spurious legitimacy by veiled allusions to 'security', as though the word alone had some magical power to transform the jobsworth demi fascist into a hero of democracy.

We are all now guilty-(of what is unclear) until proven otherwise, The default position of all authority at all levels is that of wary zoo keepers of dangerous and treacherous creatures who must at all times be constrained lest they run wild.

Soft fascism is the right term for it- all the furniture of democracy remains intact, but behind the sofa the wallpaper is peeling off.

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theres something wrong with human nature. something inbuilt that demands within us the quest to be better than our neighbors.

That's only one half of us and it is good if controlled.

There is another side which is our need for social bonding, an evolutionary trait. It has been overwhelmed by the last decades' push for selfishness but it can't disappear, it's still lurking out there and will come back in time.

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Hook, line and sinker :lol:

But seriously - if you think the answer is more Socialism you are going to be extremely disappointed.

The answer is a smaller state, lower taxes and minimal welfare.

The US copied the European model and was brought to its knees,

but the US will recover faster and emerge stronger because it has founding principles to which it will return.

Hopefully the UK will follow this lead, because the European model of state control of all aspects of peoples lives can only deliver authoritarianism and economic failure

:blink:

Like a horse with blinkers you march on happy to see only what your masters wish.

There is no capitalism there is no socialism there is only greed & theft.

The USA had near true capitalism briefly because it was vast & everyone had guns so it was difficult to steal on a mass scale (governments)

for at least the last century the battle has been rich men & how they can hold onto & increase that wealth illegally. with that wealth they baught & paid off 'the state' so that everything is rigged to favour value added going disproportionately to capital.

There were some periods in the last century where the average family in the west got richer this was due to the preceived threat of communism to the ultra rich. they allowed the equilibrium of value added to swing to a fair point (they stopped stealing so much).

So how do you stop the theft of v.rich men?

The only garanteed way is for a fully educated public. Laughable

This will continue probably forever.

The only way out is if we all wake up or if there is a communist superpower big & scary enough to make the thieves think twice.

All of these being unlikely your best bet is socialism

If you lean to the right you just give more ammunition to the rich thieves who will steal even more!

So unless u can think of a way to get rid if their thieving stop advocating a fairy tale capitalism because the fat sharks will eat you & your dream alive

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Or Blair or Bin Laden or...

History has taught us that there are few things as dangerous as someone who has one of them strong moral compass thingies (which is usually based on having an imaginary friend). It's a thin line from that to total conviction that you are always in the right and so can do no wrong.

Yes, the self righteous hypocrisy of Brown at his most deluded (or just manipulative) - "my moral compass" ........pretty rich, coming from somebody so profoundly flawed and, arguably, plain fr@cking evil.

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What happened was 13 years of Socialism.

And that is why everyone in Eastern Europe feels suddenly free

because the USSR collapsed.

If you want the same sense of freedom in Western Europe you would have to dismantle the EU

:blink:

Not at all

Countries getting richer is only a product of improving productivity which is partly due to 'socialism/capitalism' but even in the worst case scenario you can still become more productive. Ie even enslaved and forced to work for bread & water you can still invent. The USSR had some of the brightest minds and many a tech and invention was born under 'communism'

Rapidly growing nations are increasing their productivity quicker than those not growing so fast. However.....there is still theft. The 'good news is if your producing 10 more units and half is stolen you don't notice and see only the half you have gained & are happy.

The stolen wealth is of course creating a uber wealthy class in those nations too (impossible under true capitalism or communism)

Wait two generations & they too will resemble us were the equilibrium favours corrupt capital

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Counter intuitively didn't the Soviet Union's GDP actually carried on increasing through the 70s and 80s, even if the ideology got watered down and political system became harder to sustain? Anyway I imagine many people in 1979 would've laughed at the prediction of the Soviet Union collapsing in only a decade or so time, just as some people today alos getting laughed at for predicting a similar collapse in the West.

Edited by Big Orange

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Wake before you've had your required rest to the sound of BEEP BEEP BEEP BEEP,

commute in traffic jams with a load of other tired sad faces,

arrive at a building full of others who dont want to be there,

do some pointless nonsense with people you dont like,

wait for the day to end,

commute back again,

eat mass produced poor quality food that is slowly killing you,

watch tv,

bed,

repeat

And at the weekends we get to mow a small square of grass and wash the car! And queue in DIY stores!

You are Tyler Durden and I claim my $5.

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I would copyright this brilliant rhetoric, stick it on T shirts and sell it to the kids- it's perfect and they will treasure it.

Oh god please don't, the last thing this ridiculous whiny emo generation need is another vessel for their moping

I've missed these ridiculous tin foil hat threads, it's sort of comforting to see another one come along after all this time predicting our imminent demise

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even places with a significantly militarised presence do not feel as insidiously authoritarian and conformist as Britain does now.

Insidiously authoritarian and conformist? In Britain we call it "the class system".

You are free to do anything you like in Britain - so long as it doesn't affect the tidy gardens of the middle class, or the money of the upper class.

One telling example of this was when I saw three young people on a moped travelling down Hamra street; the two girls were sat on the back, wearing no helmets, tiny miniskirts and spike heels. As they passed, the old timers just chuckled and the checkpoint soldiers smiled.

Something like that would never happen in Britain -- they would be stopped or reported. And yes, it is "irresponsible" behaviour, but there was something about this incident that seemed to exemplify a kind of freedom we no longer have in Britain, a freedom that also creates a kind of dynamism -- maybe, a freedom to make choices that might ****** up badly, but then again might not, and that it is your own fault if they do mess up.

So what you're saying is that we need more young people dying in road accidents, as that might teach them responsibility? :blink:

People, especially young people, are not very good at assessing risks. By all means allow people over 21 to do what they like, but I don't think we should let teenagers kill themselves just so we can have a "dynamic" society and provide a few laughs for leering checkpoint soldiers.

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your educated thats why you can spot the signs slightly earlier. you have read and understood the truth on this forum. however, the public havent yet cottoned onto to hidden inflation. sure they are shocked by 15% gas rises, but they still even watch the news and read the newspapers with innocence. they will never be told anything other than tomorrow is just around the corner. for them it has to be something so low as a closed down KFC to become 'not quite right'.

they will feel it much more than their children. children are resilient. they will grow up knowing only this, and so wont feel any loss. we wont end up in some unlivable mad max scenario, though there will be plenty of no go areas. life as we partly know it, and life as the over 55s wholly know it, will simply cease to exist.

after the initial crimewave and the building of cheap prisons and new laws, we will eventually resign ourselves to the future. in time we will forget dreams and perhaps live for the company of others, rather than the money of others.

within the last 60 years we have lost god, politics, human charity and worst of all, our memory.

worst of all, our community? :unsure:

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What happened was 13 years of Socialism.

When will some people on here stop with this nonsense about New Labour being 'socialists'. They're neo-liberals, as are the Tories.

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(snip)

......... there is a lot of subtle freedom in day to day choices, freedom of a kind we no longer have in Britain.

(snip)

... but this time, I realised that Britain does now feel like a kind of "soft" fascist country. I cannot explain what it is exactly, it is very subtle, but it is definitely there. I only potently see it after I have been elsewhere in the world; even places with a significantly militarised presence do not feel as insidiously authoritarian and conformist as Britain does now.

It is something about, well, I can't remember the last time I felt that a civic, public or governmental institution was, fundamentally, on my side. In fact, I now avoid all of them because I feel they distinctly aren't on my side, that they are "anti" people like me, and this applies to the police and the NHS.

I also see that there is very little freedom of expression in Britain now: there is hardly any real diversity of opinion presented or even allowed outside a very narrow range (the BBC reaction to Alessio Rastani was very telling in this regard; there was an immediate "moral" reaction to what he said on the part of the presenters, followed by sneering when the interview finished -- this attitude, to my mind, is one of the ways different perspectives from different positions are being "policed").

And I think that it was only the cheap money boom that covered this over, or allowed it to grow unchecked -- it is almost as though there has been a kind of establishment coup behind our backs. Unfortunately, now the money has gone, I think we are going to be left with a kind of hard repressive atmosphere. I think we will end up living in a kind of 1984.

Noam Chomsky picked up on something similar in the 1980s:

In totalitarian societies where there's a Ministry of Truth, propaganda doesn't really try to control your thoughts. It just gives you the party line. It says, "Here's the official doctrine; don't disobey and you won't get in trouble. What you think is not of great importance to anyone. If you get out of line we'll do something to you because we have force." Democratic societies can't work like that, because the state is much more limited in its capacity to control behavior by force. Since the voice of the people is allowed to speak out, those in power better control what that voice says--in other words, control what people think. One of the ways to do this is to create political debate that appears to embrace many opinions, but actually stays within very narrow margins. You have to make sure that both sides in the debate accept certain assumptions--and that those assumptions are the basis of the propaganda system. As long as everyone accepts the propaganda system, the debate is permissible.

Propaganda Review (Winter 1987-88)

In the UK at present there isn't even much debate - not while there's Strictly Come Dancing / X-factor or whatever for the masses to argue about.

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Noam Chomsky picked up on something similar in the 1980s:

In totalitarian societies where there's a Ministry of Truth, propaganda doesn't really try to control your thoughts. It just gives you the party line. It says, "Here's the official doctrine; don't disobey and you won't get in trouble. What you think is not of great importance to anyone. If you get out of line we'll do something to you because we have force." Democratic societies can't work like that, because the state is much more limited in its capacity to control behavior by force. Since the voice of the people is allowed to speak out, those in power better control what that voice says--in other words, control what people think. One of the ways to do this is to create political debate that appears to embrace many opinions, but actually stays within very narrow margins. You have to make sure that both sides in the debate accept certain assumptions--and that those assumptions are the basis of the propaganda system. As long as everyone accepts the propaganda system, the debate is permissible.

Propaganda Review (Winter 1987-88)

In the UK at present there isn't even much debate - not while there's Strictly Come Dancing / X-factor or whatever for the masses to argue about.

Which is why it is so good to see Will Self and Hugh Hendry on Question Time. To the masses they come across as reactionary and shocking when all they are doing is painting an alternative (and in my opinion) statethink free viewpoint.

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  • 292 Brexit, House prices and Summer 2020

    1. 1. Including the effects Brexit, where do you think average UK house prices will be relative to now in June 2020?


      • down 5% +
      • down 2.5%
      • Even
      • up 2.5%
      • up 5%



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