Injin Posted October 2, 2011 Share Posted October 2, 2011 Define "real jobs" Making real things, for a decent percentage of the overall profits, over the medium to long term in secure contracts. Is what he means, more than likely. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yellerkat Posted October 2, 2011 Share Posted October 2, 2011 Which 'representatives of the free market' have been demanding bailouts? Hint: no-one who really believes in free markets would be demanding bailouts. Financial sector only, in the US alone: Citigroup: $2.5 trillion($2,500,000,000,000)Morgan Stanley: $2.04 trillion ($2,040,000,000,000) Merrill Lynch: $1.949 trillion ($1,949,000,000,000) Bank of America: $1.344 trillion ($1,344,000,000,000) Barclays PLC (United Kingdom): $868 billion* ($868,000,000,000) Bear Sterns: $853 billion ($853,000,000,000) Goldman Sachs: $814 billion ($814,000,000,000) Royal Bank of Scotland (UK): $541 billion ($541,000,000,000) JP Morgan Chase: $391 billion ($391,000,000,000) Deutsche Bank (Germany): $354 billion ($354,000,000,000) UBS (Switzerland): $287 billion ($287,000,000,000) Credit Suisse (Switzerland): $262 billion ($262,000,000,000) Lehman Brothers: $183 billion ($183,000,000,000) Bank of Scotland (United Kingdom): $181 billion ($181,000,000,000) BNP Paribas (France): $175 billion ($175,000,000,000) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lepista Posted October 2, 2011 Share Posted October 2, 2011 You do know that fully automatic AK-47s are available over the counter in some EU states for around US$400? *much* more than that in the UK.... rip off Britain again! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Redcellar Posted October 2, 2011 Share Posted October 2, 2011 Radio 4 around 9am today had an interview with a Greek citizen and a German. German saying Greece needs to do more, very politely as he was also just a normalish chap. Greek gentleman said the problem is Greece is struggling to recover from the war. [65 years and still can't get their act together!] Also said they are doing all they can and can't afford to pay the extra taxes. [Retirement age is somewhere between 58 and 61. Doesn't sound like they are really trying does it?] [Also, public sector on strike but can't pay increased taxes? Well they managed to get by without a days pay.] I would suggest the problem is the phsyche. It's become ingrained, an entitlement to the same as the previous generations had. I can't blame them for wanting it but it's just no longer an option. But this clearly isn't going to change in the next few years.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arbitrage Posted October 2, 2011 Share Posted October 2, 2011 The whole greece thing is distressing to see but all the talk of it coming here very soon is misguided. In typical periods of crisis there will be pockets in which the worst effects are felt, whether that is revolution, hyperinflation, civil war or whatever. The small nations which succumb to the worst these crises have to offer do so because there is a deep liquid market elsewhere to which financial, human and social capital can flee. Even when big nations go down like germany after the first world war, they do so primarily because the gradient between their own misfortunes and the relative prosperity and stability of much of the rest of the world is very steep. Much is made of "contagion", which while it is a very very real consideration in the modern global economy, really doesn't mean that much if everywhere becomes infected. The point is illustrated by US treasuries gaining after the US was downgraded. Really we have nothing to fear in terms of going greek as long as we remember that the devil will take the hindmost. IN the UK we are a long way from that honour. That's not to say the whole world can't go to hell in a handbasket but such an outcome is very different from being singled out. By the time this EU farce is over, Germany's national debt and budget deficit will paint the UK in a quite flattering light, Yes, everything's just OK here in the good old UK - we've got a great economy based on producing goods and services that we and the rest of the world want to buy. Just look at our glorious trade balance ; we hardly import anything. As a result we don't have to take on debt, or sell any of our assets off, to obtain the foreign currency needed to live beyond our collective means. We don't have any private or public debt! Oh, we're so lucky to live somewhere like the UK, not Greece Sceppy - who pays you to write this rubbish Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bloo Loo Posted October 2, 2011 Share Posted October 2, 2011 (edited) snip The small nations which succumb to the worst these crises have to offer do so because there is a deep liquid market elsewhere to which financial, human and social capital can flee. Even when big nations go down like germany after the first world war, they do so primarily because [the gradient between their own misfortunes [they borrowed too much]][and the relative prosperity and stability of much of the rest of the world is very steep[and now they are broke]]. snip instead of 50 words and supplementary paragrapghs, you could say...."they borrowed too much and now they are broke". with respect, Its OBFUSCATION in words that brings disrepute to the whole process. Edited October 2, 2011 by Bloo Loo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheCountOfNowhere Posted October 2, 2011 Share Posted October 2, 2011 "The neo-Nazi “Golden Dawn” party has its headquarters nearby – while they haven’t made it to parliament yet, the dangerous mixture of increasing immigration and falling living standards ensures their growing popularity. " I've said this would happen for a while now...people said I was mad it would never happen again.....it's human nature to protect you and yours, to blame someone else and if the UK doesn't do something soon about reversing the last 10 years of immigration then we might see it here...sure they can print money to keep the system afloat but everyones living standard will drop further...making things worse still. These are dark times we live in. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AteMoose Posted October 2, 2011 Share Posted October 2, 2011 Radio 4 around 9am today had an interview with a Greek citizen and a German. German saying Greece needs to do more, very politely as he was also just a normalish chap. Greek gentleman said the problem is Greece is struggling to recover from the war. [65 years and still can't get their act together!] Also said they are doing all they can and can't afford to pay the extra taxes. [Retirement age is somewhere between 58 and 61. Doesn't sound like they are really trying does it?] [Also, public sector on strike but can't pay increased taxes? Well they managed to get by without a days pay.] I would suggest the problem is the phsyche. It's become ingrained, an entitlement to the same as the previous generations had. I can't blame them for wanting it but it's just no longer an option. But this clearly isn't going to change in the next few years.. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(PPP)_per_capita cant afford!?! officially GDP PPP is $28,496 its about the same as spain and italy, and not far off the UK of $35,059 and germany $36,081. After tax/not paying taxes it must work out the average greek person takes home/avoids tax and bring in more cash than the average brit/german. Yeah must be alot of poverty, but there much be a hell of a lot of rich people taking home mega money. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
newbonic Posted October 2, 2011 Share Posted October 2, 2011 (edited) There's an article in the Sunday Times business supplement today about Greece. The Qatari sovereign wealth fund is investing $600m into 3 gold mines in n-e Greece with the intention of turning it into Europe's biggest gold producer. The gold miner company is called European Goldfields and is chaired by a Rothschild banker. The 10% (rising to 20%) Quatari stake was bought from a Greek building company called Ellaktor. It was held up on conservation grounds for 5 years, but that objection has evaporated! They claim it will create 2,000 jobs and the first gold is expected next year, so good for the Greek economy? Or has the asset stripping of Greece started? edit for typo Edited October 2, 2011 by newbonic Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arbitrage Posted October 2, 2011 Share Posted October 2, 2011 instead of 50 words and supplementary paragrapghs, you could say...."they borrowed too much and now they are broke". with respect, Its OBFUSCATION in words that brings disrepute to the whole process. Oh, no! Astro sceppy's cover blown again Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
_w_ Posted October 2, 2011 Share Posted October 2, 2011 I wonder why this is a worthy of note - western 'democracies' have been corporate oligarchies for at least 100 years. Of course, there is no free market - that is a fairy tale for the little guy. If you are very poor or rich - you subsist on benefits from the taxpayer. Needless to say, both groups are deeply suspicious of the morals of the other. That's my opinion too. I wish the 'little guys' on hpc who have fallen for this ideological trap opened their eyes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
justthisbloke Posted October 2, 2011 Share Posted October 2, 2011 Those captains of industry have though. Finance, energy, manufacturing, services, utilities, etc. They all want and work very hard to get subsidies, protected markets, tariffs, bailouts, tax rebates, licensing, regulation that cripple the smaller competition and all. They are staunch advocates of free markets only when they stand to benefit, usually in cases of oversupply in their supply markets or when they are in a position of dominance in their own market. I've yet to find any person other than academics who support free markets. Free markets don't exist outside of economic theory and free-marketeer economic philosophers are not the player strongmen in politics, business, trades unions etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Injin Posted October 2, 2011 Share Posted October 2, 2011 Free markets don't exist outside of economic theory and free-marketeer economic philosophers are not the player strongmen in politics, business, trades unions etc. Not quite true. Most of the important markets are free ones - marriage, friendship etc etc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
_w_ Posted October 2, 2011 Share Posted October 2, 2011 Not quite true. Most of the important markets are free ones - marriage, friendship etc etc I'm not so sure that's true everywhere. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
justthisbloke Posted October 2, 2011 Share Posted October 2, 2011 Not quite true. Most of the important markets are free ones - marriage, friendship etc etc I'm having trouble imagining a demand curve for love. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
newbonic Posted October 2, 2011 Share Posted October 2, 2011 (edited) Seems fairly pointless - all they are going to do is dig it up and put it in a safe. Not just that, but every ounce they dig up up does not add value, its value is through diluting the value of all the other gold in the world. Totally pointless if they are going to lose some area of beauty. All true, but $600m doesn't talk, it shouts, so they will go ahead expending the diesel and explosives etc. to get those big holes in the ground. Just that the profits won't stay in Greece any more. edit for typo (really must read post before pressing Submit button) Edited October 2, 2011 by newbonic Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iamdamosuzuki Posted October 2, 2011 Share Posted October 2, 2011 Only it's not a crisis of capitalism It's a crisis of the Western model of a huge state leeching off capitalism and finally killing it. Yes -it's a systematic crisis. I do have a fundamental lack of belief in any ideology working as long as it's kept pure. My whole ethos is that none of the posturing and prancing works, because people always intervene. Capitalism would be fine if it wasn't for human nature. The ideaa that it reflects human nature is wrong IMO, as is being proved. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Injin Posted October 2, 2011 Share Posted October 2, 2011 I'm having trouble imagining a demand curve for love. It's still there, somewhere. In any event, a free market is simply a venue where when you hear the word "no" you accept it without physically attacking the person who refused you. To say there aren't many places where this is the case is a bit non empirical to say the least. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R K Posted October 2, 2011 Share Posted October 2, 2011 (edited) There's an article in the Sunday Times business supplement today about Greece. The Qatari sovereign wealth fund is investing $600m into 3 gold mines in n-e Greece with the intention of turning it into Europe's biggest gold producer. The gold miner company is called European Goldfields and is chaired by a Rothschild banker. The 10% (rising to 20%) Quatari stake was bought from a Greek building company called Ellaktor. It was held up on conservation grounds for 5 years, but that objection has evaporated! They claim it will create 2,000 jobs and the first gold is expected next year, so good for the Greek economy? Or has the asset stripping of Greece started? edit for typo "Buy when there's blood on the streets and sell to the sound of trumpets". Nathan Rothschild. Osborne's chum, baby Rothschild, has covered both of those criteria with this trade. He's even managed to get three cherries up by offloading the risk and using OPM (other people's money). Edited October 2, 2011 by Red Knight Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
newbonic Posted October 2, 2011 Share Posted October 2, 2011 (edited) "Buy when there's blood on the streets and sell to the sound of trumpets". Nathan Rothschild. Osborne's chum, baby Rothschild, has covered both of those criteria with this trade. He's even managed to get three cherries up by offloading the risk and using OPM (other people's money). As it happens there was another Rothschild featured next to the Greek gold mine story. This was about one 40 y.o. Nat Rothschild ('scion of the banking dynasty') who's just made a killing with Indonesian coal mine shares - invested £16m in the improbably named Bumi in 2010, and now it seems that they're floated it and his shares are worth £110m. Edited October 2, 2011 by newbonic Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R K Posted October 2, 2011 Share Posted October 2, 2011 As it happens there was another Rothschild featured next to the Greek gold mine story. This was about one 40 y.o. Nat Rothschild ('scion of the banking dynasty') who's just made a killing with Indonesian coal mine shares - invested £16m in the improbably named Bumi in 2010, and now it seems that they're floated it and his shares are worth £110m. Evelyn? Same difference. So nobody asked how Nat got his £110m shareholding for only £16m? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
newbonic Posted October 2, 2011 Share Posted October 2, 2011 Evelyn? Same difference. So nobody asked how Nat got his £110m shareholding for only £16m? Not in the ST article, no. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dothemaths Posted October 2, 2011 Share Posted October 2, 2011 Which 'representatives of the free market' have been demanding bailouts? Hint: no-one who really believes in free markets would be demanding bailouts. Well I believe in the existence of fairies .... .... as much as I believe that free markets have ever existed ... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dothemaths Posted October 2, 2011 Share Posted October 2, 2011 I'm not so sure that's true everywhere. Outside the developed world it almost certainly isn't..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dothemaths Posted October 2, 2011 Share Posted October 2, 2011 I really get the feeling that democracy is running out of steam. This widespread breakdown across the democratic west, looks a lot like the gradual fall of communism in the 1980's. Its a world away from the record economic growth that the Kings and Dictators of Asia are seeing in their nations. The smartest and most capable people in the world (those who can decide where they want to live without the need for inherited wealth) vote with their feet and they don't go to the lands of the kings and dictators ..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.