Jump to content
House Price Crash Forum
Joe Logic

The Big Question That Not Being Asked!

Recommended Posts

Growth , growth we must resume growth to be able to pay the national debt... words we keep hearing from every fkin politician , economist , Eurocrat and media both written and broadcast...

And yet there is one question that no one ever asks, a simple logical question that when the answer is reconised and acknowledged would or at least should change the way this whole freaking mess is being dealt with..

So here's the question:

How on earth are we going to stimulate growth ( which means to create an economy that produces more this year than it did the year before) when the growth in the 5 years to 2009 was entirely stimulated by trillions of pounds of irrisponciable credit being dropped into the economy . ?

EVERY SINGLE POUND OF SO CALLED GROWTH SINCE THOSE YEARS IS COMPLETLY SET OFF BY THE AMOUNT OF CREDIT DROPPED INTO THE UK ECONOMY!!!

So there was never really any growth anyway .. just a regurgitation of the credit given ......the government took a slice off every person / business that the funds passed thro ..... until we reached today when there was nothing left.

There are neither the available funds to give credit or the appetite to use credit ... it.s simples ... there will not be growth.. there will be massive decline because the government is still taking a slice that the people /businesses cannot afford.

The answer is simple common sence : the government MUST STOP SPENDING MONEY IT DOESNT HAVE , AND THE PUBLIC HAVE TO HAVE MORE REALISTIC EXPECTATIONS OF WHAT WE CAN RECEIVE FROM THE GOVERNMENT.

But that aint gonna happen .......so I am afraid to say its every man for himself!!!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Growth , growth we must resume growth to be able to pay the national debt... words we keep hearing from every fkin politician , economist , Eurocrat and media both written and broadcast...

And yet there is one question that no one ever asks, a simple logical question that when the answer is reconised and acknowledged would or at least should change the way this whole freaking mess is being dealt with..

So here's the question:

How on earth are we going to stimulate growth ( which means to create an economy that produces more this year than it did the year before) when the growth in the 5 years to 2009 was entirely stimulated by trillions of pounds of irrisponciable credit being dropped into the economy . ?

EVERY SINGLE POUND OF SO CALLED GROWTH SINCE THOSE YEARS IS COMPLETLY SET OFF BY THE AMOUNT OF CREDIT DROPPED INTO THE UK ECONOMY!!!

So there was never really any growth anyway .. just a regurgitation of the credit given ......the government took a slice off every person / business that the funds passed thro ..... until we reached today when there was nothing left.

There are neither the available funds to give credit or the appetite to use credit ... it.s simples ... there will not be growth.. there will be massive decline because the government is still taking a slice that the people /businesses cannot afford.

The answer is simple common sence : the government MUST STOP SPENDING MONEY IT DOESNT HAVE , AND THE PUBLIC HAVE TO HAVE MORE REALISTIC EXPECTATIONS OF WHAT WE CAN RECEIVE FROM THE GOVERNMENT.

But that aint gonna happen .......so I am afraid to say its every man for himself!!!

Are you related to Eric?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

the government MUST STOP SPENDING MONEY IT DOESNT HAVE ,

Actually it must borrow, or 'create' more money all the time. If it fails to do so it becomes mathematically impossible to repay existing debts, public and private and the fiat money system collapses.

Which will happen anyway sooner or later.

Buy gold, while you still can. The snap back to real money will represent an enormous transfer of wealth.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Are you related to Eric?

NO .. Just getting p""""d off with the total b*******ks being spoken all the time .... its basic fundamental economics..

And yet no one is asking the right questions!!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Growth , growth we must resume growth to be able to pay the national debt... words we keep hearing from every fkin politician , economist , Eurocrat and media both written and broadcast...

And yet there is one question that no one ever asks, a simple logical question that when the answer is reconised and acknowledged would or at least should change the way this whole freaking mess is being dealt with..

So here's the question:

How on earth are we going to stimulate growth ( which means to create an economy that produces more this year than it did the year before) when the growth in the 5 years to 2009 was entirely stimulated by trillions of pounds of irrisponciable credit being dropped into the economy . ?

EVERY SINGLE POUND OF SO CALLED GROWTH SINCE THOSE YEARS IS COMPLETLY SET OFF BY THE AMOUNT OF CREDIT DROPPED INTO THE UK ECONOMY!!!

So there was never really any growth anyway .. just a regurgitation of the credit given ......the government took a slice off every person / business that the funds passed thro ..... until we reached today when there was nothing left.

There are neither the available funds to give credit or the appetite to use credit ... it.s simples ... there will not be growth.. there will be massive decline because the government is still taking a slice that the people /businesses cannot afford.

The answer is simple common sence : the government MUST STOP SPENDING MONEY IT DOESNT HAVE , AND THE PUBLIC HAVE TO HAVE MORE REALISTIC EXPECTATIONS OF WHAT WE CAN RECEIVE FROM THE GOVERNMENT.

But that aint gonna happen .......so I am afraid to say its every man for himself!!!

Mate, the old chesnut....................We are at peak growth, peak debt, peak work your f00kin nuts off, it ain't comin, the erection is as elongated as elongations go, its all flop and slop from here on in unless, the rich take the pain, and when i say rich, anyone with more than nothing............

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

My link

Growth , growth we must resume growth to be able to pay the national debt... words we keep hearing from every fkin politician , economist , Eurocrat and media both written and broadcast...

And yet there is one question that no one ever asks, a simple logical question that when the answer is reconised and acknowledged would or at least should change the way this whole freaking mess is being dealt with..

So here's the question:

How on earth are we going to stimulate growth ( which means to create an economy that produces more this year than it did the year before) when the growth in the 5 years to 2009 was entirely stimulated by trillions of pounds of irrisponciable credit being dropped into the economy . ?

EVERY SINGLE POUND OF SO CALLED GROWTH SINCE THOSE YEARS IS COMPLETLY SET OFF BY THE AMOUNT OF CREDIT DROPPED INTO THE UK ECONOMY!!!

So there was never really any growth anyway .. just a regurgitation of the credit given ......the government took a slice off every person / business that the funds passed thro ..... until we reached today when there was nothing left.

There are neither the available funds to give credit or the appetite to use credit ... it.s simples ... there will not be growth.. there will be massive decline because the government is still taking a slice that the people /businesses cannot afford.

The answer is simple common sence : the government MUST STOP SPENDING MONEY IT DOESNT HAVE , AND THE PUBLIC HAVE TO HAVE MORE REALISTIC EXPECTATIONS OF WHAT WE CAN RECEIVE FROM THE GOVERNMENT.

But that aint gonna happen .......so I am afraid to say its every man for himself!!!

How we get out of the mess is beyond me but I'm pretty sure how we got here ,if you got a hour or four to spare it`s well worth a watch you will have to go to you tube for the other 21 parts http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lXb-LrVkuwM

Edited by long time lurking

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

How on earth are we going to stimulate growth ( which means to create an economy that produces more this year than it did the year before) when the growth in the 5 years to 2009 was entirely stimulated by trillions of pounds of irrisponciable credit being dropped into the economy . ?

I think, in order to address this question, you must first specify, with formal precision, what you mean by growth. You need to state how this growth will be measured. Once this is done, then the mechanism by which growth can be achieved will emerge. Essentially, this question is equivalent to asking how we're going to hide inflation - pretending it isn't happening - when, actually, it is rampant.

GDP growth, to the government, is important as it defines the national creditworthiness - though this could be changed by nothing more complicated than international diplomacy and treaty. Far more important than GDP, in my opinion, are tax revenues, employment and social mobility. None of these are directly reflected by GDP figures.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

We export our way out.

Thats how German GDP growth exceeds debt growth. CIGXM and all that rubbish.

Well, it did for a few quarters anyway.

Isnt our trade deficit only £40billion or so.

Strip out the EU, UN membership, aid and energy imports, and thats £40billion less going out, £40 billion more coming in.

Thats half the deficit solved.

The other half is probably compensating for credit contraction in the private sector. £80 billion in TOTAL credit growth probably wouldnt be troublesome if the above were solved and overall economy growing at 4% or so (ie in equilibrium)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Under a focus of growth the easy option was/is just to expand the public sector and add to aggregrate demand.

Well person A can dig a hole, and person B can fill it in later. Person C can be the project manager to oversee this hole digging and hires an admin' assistant person D. Some other bod can prepare purchase orders for the holes and maybe setup a HR or finance function.

Expand it further it's like an economy built of playing cards but the growth figures look ok, jobs being created, etc.

Ok so we could say yeah lets do some capital spending but do you reakon they'll choose the right projects?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

How on earth are we going to stimulate growth ( which means to create an economy that produces more this year than it did the year before) when the growth in the 5 years to 2009 was entirely stimulated by trillions of pounds of irrisponciable credit being dropped into the economy . ?

Very good question, one which presumably George Osborne wonders about since when asked this very question he has no answer to give.

And, welcome!

I think, in order to address this question, you must first specify, with formal precision, what you mean by growth. You need to state how this growth will be measured.

I think perhaps these sorts of questions are being asked now in some circles, but in the meantime, the formula for calculating it and the status quo remains? Don't get me wrong - I think this is very important and I'm in no way dismissing it. But I don't hear a worldwide clamour to redefine what "growth" is, whether it's the right measure or productivity, wealth and so on. I just see the mice on the same treadwheel.

We export our way out.

Not when demand collapses because nobody else has got any money either :)

Actually it must borrow, or 'create' more money all the time. If it fails to do so it becomes mathematically impossible to repay existing debts, public and private and the fiat money system collapses.

Which will happen anyway sooner or later.

Indeed, and coming back the original post, the GDP measure, things we might or could do to turn it round - as I see it, we're on a one way path to self destruction. Whether we pull back from the very brink, or pass it, remains to be seen.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If stuff is 5% more expensive than last year, and I buy 3% less of it, is that still "growth"? :o

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Growth , growth we must resume growth to be able to pay the national debt... words we keep hearing from every fkin politician , economist , Eurocrat and media both written and broadcast...

And yet there is one question that no one ever asks, a simple logical question that when the answer is reconised and acknowledged would or at least should change the way this whole freaking mess is being dealt with..

So here's the question:

How on earth are we going to stimulate growth ( which means to create an economy that produces more this year than it did the year before) when the growth in the 5 years to 2009 was entirely stimulated by trillions of pounds of irrisponciable credit being dropped into the economy . ?

EVERY SINGLE POUND OF SO CALLED GROWTH SINCE THOSE YEARS IS COMPLETLY SET OFF BY THE AMOUNT OF CREDIT DROPPED INTO THE UK ECONOMY!!!

So there was never really any growth anyway .. just a regurgitation of the credit given ......the government took a slice off every person / business that the funds passed thro ..... until we reached today when there was nothing left.

There are neither the available funds to give credit or the appetite to use credit ... it.s simples ... there will not be growth.. there will be massive decline because the government is still taking a slice that the people /businesses cannot afford.

Also, the question is whether it is a real/nominal GDP growth/Tax revenue growth or GDP per capita growth.

To pay down national debt, one needs NOMINAL growth. Just get some reasonably middle class migrant to move in and that will also boost nominal GDP growth as more people = more income/more consumption/production.

The answer is simple common sence : the government MUST STOP SPENDING MONEY IT DOESNT HAVE , AND THE PUBLIC HAVE TO HAVE MORE REALISTIC EXPECTATIONS OF WHAT WE CAN RECEIVE FROM THE GOVERNMENT.

But that aint gonna happen .......so I am afraid to say its every man for himself!!!

Also, the government NEVER has any money until it taxes it though..

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Growth , growth we must resume growth to be able to pay the national debt... words we keep hearing from every fkin politician , economist , Eurocrat and media both written and broadcast...

And yet there is one question that no one ever asks, a simple logical question that when the answer is reconised and acknowledged would or at least should change the way this whole freaking mess is being dealt with..

So here's the question:

How on earth are we going to stimulate growth ( which means to create an economy that produces more this year than it did the year before) when the growth in the 5 years to 2009 was entirely stimulated by trillions of pounds of irrisponciable credit being dropped into the economy . ?

Perhaps we should ask why we need growth at all.

The parable of the Mexican Fisherman poses the question -

"An American tourist was at the pier of a small coastal Mexican village when a small boat with just one fisherman docked. Inside the small boat were several large yellowfin tuna. The tourist complimented the Mexican on the quality of his fish and asked how long it took to catch them. The Mexican replied, "Only a little while."

The tourist then asked, "Why didn't you stay out longer and catch more fish?" The Mexican said, "With this I have more than enough to support my family's needs." The tourist then asked, "But what do you do with the rest of your time?" The Mexican fisherman said, "I sleep late, fish a little, play with my children, take siesta with my wife, Maria, stroll into the village each evening where I sip wine and play guitar with my amigos, I have a full and busy life."

The tourist scoffed, " I can help you. You should spend more time fishing; and with the proceeds, buy a bigger boat: With the proceeds from the bigger boat you could buy several boats. Eventually you would have a fleet of fishing boats. Instead of selling your catch to a middleman you would sell directly to the processor; eventually opening your own cannery. You would control the product, processing and distribution. You could leave this small coastal fishing village and move to Mexico City, then Los Angeles and eventually New York where you could run your ever-expanding enterprise."

The Mexican fisherman asked, "But, how long will this all take?" The tourist replied, "15 to 20 years." "But what then?" asked the Mexican. The tourist laughed and said, "That's the best part. When the time is right you would sell your company stock to the public and become very rich, you would make millions."

"Millions?...Then what?"

The American said, "Then you would retire. Move to a small coastal fishing village where you would sleep late, fish a little, play with your kids, take siesta with your wife, stroll to the village in the evenings where you could sip wine and play your guitar with your amigos."

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

We export our way out.

With what exactly? For years we've produced fluff, and very little that other nations find useful, unless you really think that gas-guzzling high end cars will solve it.

Strip out the EU, UN membership, aid and energy imports, and thats £40billion less going out, £40 billion more coming in.

You mean go back to an isolated island state with no cultural, social or co-operative ties with anyone else? And is it just the EU that is somehow draining us? Our own megalithic state machine does a lot of that already. We've got a lot of home-grown waste to address too: Wars, military spending, £12 billion wasted on failed computer systems, Trident, an enormous debt through PFI and of course our own banksters draining tax payer's money which will never be paid back, except by us.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

How on earth are we going to stimulate growth ( which means to create an economy that produces more this year than it did the year before) when the growth in the 5 years to 2009 was entirely stimulated by trillions of pounds of irrisponciable credit being dropped into the economy . ?

EVERY SINGLE POUND OF SO CALLED GROWTH SINCE THOSE YEARS IS COMPLETLY SET OFF BY THE AMOUNT OF CREDIT DROPPED INTO THE UK ECONOMY!!!

figures?

and even if so, it does not logically follow that future growth cannot come from non-credit

your 'Joe Logic' appears to be about as good as your 'Joe Spelling'

(and why do posters give themselves monikers that declame some kind of enlightenment ['logic', 'observer', 'thoguhtful', etc] when their posts decry the opposite??)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The economy is so fvcked after a decade of New Labour madness it should be easy for an incoming gov't to generate some growth. It's actually a bit of a gift to a half intelligent party with a bit of ambition,

There are too many laws, too much taxation and far too much of the nanny state, sweep it away and the genuine wealth creators might stand half a chance.

Edited by Authoritarian

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

figures?

and even if so, it does not logically follow that future growth cannot come from non-credit

He's not saying that. He's saying when you remove the "growth" that came from credit expansion you get a contraction. To try to replace that with real growth and add a bit more, thereby achieving growth relative to previous years which is what the government needs to achieve, seems impossible.

(and why do posters give themselves monikers that declame some kind of enlightenment ['logic', 'observer', 'thoguhtful', etc] when their posts decry the opposite??)

Guilty as charged :lol:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Growth, what a joke. I wont go into my usual engineering rant...

The world has finite resources, how can there ever be continued growth - I find this a flawed system.

Thanks for mentioning the elephant in the room at last! The lack of other comments on even the possibility of exponential economic stems from the fact that such issues are not even on the radar for most people. All debate about getting "growth" is founded a massively flawed assumption.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Thanks for mentioning the elephant in the room at last! The lack of other comments on even the possibility of exponential economic stems from the fact that such issues are not even on the radar for most people. All debate about getting "growth" is founded a massively flawed assumption.

We've done alright so far, what makes you so sure that the next two thousand years will be any different growth wise from the previous two?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

With what exactly? For years we've produced fluff, and very little that other nations find useful, unless you really think that gas-guzzling high end cars will solve it.

Im saying we dont have to. Strip out the foreign beaureaucrazy and transfer payments, have a sustainable energy policy, and our trade situation is quite manageable.

You mean go back to an isolated island state with no cultural, social or co-operative ties with anyone else? And is it just the EU that is somehow draining us? Our own megalithic state machine does a lot of that already. We've got a lot of home-grown waste to address too: Wars, military spending, £12 billion wasted on failed computer systems, Trident, an enormous debt through PFI and of course our own banksters draining tax payer's money which will never be paid back, except by us.

Whats being isolated got to do with being part of the EU?

Are all non-EU european states somehow 'isolated'?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I am going to stand the UK in a giant Grobag and fertilise on it three times a day.

Thatll get it growing.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The economy is so fvcked after a decade of New Labour madness it should be easy for an incoming gov't to generate some growth. It's actually a bit of a gift to a half intelligent party with a bit of ambition,

There are too many laws, too much taxation and far too much of the nanny state, sweep it away and the genuine wealth creators might stand half a chance.

yes

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

  • 338 Brexit, House prices and Summer 2020

    1. 1. Including the effects Brexit, where do you think average UK house prices will be relative to now in June 2020?


      • down 5% +
      • down 2.5%
      • Even
      • up 2.5%
      • up 5%



×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

We have placed cookies on your device to help make this website better. You can adjust your cookie settings, otherwise we'll assume you're okay to continue.