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Milton

Corporatism In The Uk.

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Definitions:

A STATIST system—whether of a communist, fascist, Nazi, socialist or "welfare" type—is based on the . . . government's unlimited power, which means: on the rule of brute force. The differences among statist systems are only a matter of time and degree; the principle is the same. Under statism, the government is not a policeman, but a legalized criminal that holds the power to use physical force in any manner and for any purpose it pleases against legally disarmed, defenseless victims.

NEO-CORPORATISM [or New Fascism] is a modern version of state corporatism which emerged in the late 19th century in authoritarian systems and had several manifestations in the first half of the 20th century—for example, in Adolf Hitler's Germany and Francisco Franco's Spain. Neo-corporatism is the opposing tendency (even polemically) to neo-liberalism.

Early concepts of corporatism have been traced back to ideas found in Fascist Italy, Nazi Germany.

The essence of the theory is that major industrial institutions, and especially corporations, have now entered into a very close alliance with the state, especially with the civil service. Instead of the state controlling and organizing industry as though the corporations were passive, they are seen as being necessary partners.

In the PLANNED ECONOMY The government controls and regulates production, distribution, prices, etc. They Compel. The Planned economy, is a direct contrast to the democratic model, of the 'Market Economy'

The implication for those who use the idea as a criticism of modern political systems is that the spirit of Italian fascism, where industry was directly represented in a legislative chamber, is rising again, or has occured, with the state becoming no more than a servant to sectional industrial interests.

I.E The Banking Industry.

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Corporatism has become endemic in the UK.

Post examples of Creeping, Encroaching Corporatism, or Statism.

Edited by Milton

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To be honest a planned economy would be quite nice- perhaps we could have one in which economists were not constantly twitching like startled rabbits at every new set of 'unexpected' data that is published.

From a certain point of view the conspiracy theorists are the most starry eyed dreamers of all- they actually believe the people in charge are running things, rather than just hanging on for as long as possible to grab as much as they can before the wheels come off.

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To be honest a planned economy would be quite nice-

That's an odd statement. There are examples all around us of being in a planned economy in the sense I meant it, and its not nice.

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That's an odd statement. There are examples all around us of being in a planned economy in the sense I meant it, and its not nice.

Isn't the real problem one of extremes?

A planned economy is like forcing food down a kids throat on the basis that it's 'good for him' and 'mother knows best'.

A capitalist economy is taking that same kid and letting him loose in a sweet shop, whereupon he gorges himself to the point of sickness.

Somewhere between these extremes is a point where freedom of choice is in balance with a degree of systemic control.

At present our financial world is run by bankers operating without adult supervision and with poor impulse control- as a result of which we all feel sick.

Until we as a society start to stand up to the spoilt brats on Wall Street and in the City- tell them that play time is finally over and that there is no more money for them to play with, we will be locked into a never ending sequence of crisis, each bigger and more destructive than the last.

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To be honest a planned economy would be quite nice

A successful planned economy could indeed be quite nice. The problem is that no-one has ever come up with one that works anything like as well as an unplanned economy and, in addition, all the variants tried thus far seem to involve concentration camps and bullets to the back of the head for large numbers of people. Oh, and Trabants, don't forget them.

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A successful planned economy could indeed be quite nice. The problem is that no-one has ever come up with one that works anything like as well as an unplanned economy and, in addition, all the variants tried thus far seem to involve concentration camps and bullets to the back of the head for large numbers of people. Oh, and Trabants, don't forget them.

I don't disagree- yet you assume that capitalism will not also end with the camps and the bullets- this could be less of a distinction than you imagine. Any system under stress will eventually deteriorate to barbarism- and if you listen carefully you will already hear the theme music of tyranny playing softy in the background- all those little references to the 'slowness' of the democratic process- the barely concealed rage at the apparent inability of the politicians to 'do the right thing', which translates into shafting their populations to save the banks.

Democracy, liberty and human rights are gradually being moved from the 'essential' list to the 'nice to have' list- that list of things that we can apparently no longer afford to have- it's the crisis you see- it's urgent. So to save the western world we have to trash it's values and it's freedoms.

So in the end we may find that the final destination of capitalism will look no different to that of socialism- certainly the version of capitalism we have now is as ideologically driven, and as flawed, as any soviet fantasy- and the message seems strikingly similar.

Strip away the rhetoric and both the Neo Liberal right and the Soviet Socialist Republic have a similar tale to tell- it's a tale of how individual suffering is a price worth paying in order to preserve the values of the system- that in the end the system is greater than the individual and those who get crushed beneath it's progress are a necessary lubricant on the path to the shining-ever retreating-future.

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Isn't the real problem one of extremes?

A planned economy is like forcing food down a kids throat on the basis that it's 'good for him' and 'mother knows best'.

A capitalist economy is taking that same kid and letting him loose in a sweet shop, whereupon he gorges himself to the point of sickness.

Somewhere between these extremes is a point where freedom of choice is in balance with a degree of systemic control.

At present our financial world is run by bankers operating without adult supervision and with poor impulse control- as a result of which we all feel sick.

Until we as a society start to stand up to the spoilt brats on Wall Street and in the City- tell them that play time is finally over and that there is no more money for them to play with, we will be locked into a never ending sequence of crisis, each bigger and more destructive than the last.

So, you think individuals are like children who need to be told what to do, yet some how politicians are like adults and able to tell them what to do?

News flash: individuals are not like children - they are independent, free, beings. They no more need the 'lessons' by the politicians than a slave needs an owner.

Edited by Traktion

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A successful planned economy could indeed be quite nice. The problem is that no-one has ever come up with one that works anything like as well as an unplanned economy and, in addition, all the variants tried thus far seem to involve concentration camps and bullets to the back of the head for large numbers of people. Oh, and Trabants, don't forget them.

A planned economy doesn't work, because a handful of liars in suits are never going to be able to understand or dictate to millions of people, all with different thoughts and aspirations. It's arrogant folly to think otherwise.

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I don't disagree- yet you assume that capitalism will not also end with the camps and the bullets- this could be less of a distinction than you imagine. Any system under stress will eventually deteriorate to barbarism- and if you listen carefully you will already hear the theme music of tyranny playing softy in the background- all those little references to the 'slowness' of the democratic process- the barely concealed rage at the apparent inability of the politicians to 'do the right thing', which translates into shafting their populations to save the banks.

Democracy, liberty and human rights are gradually being moved from the 'essential' list to the 'nice to have' list- that list of things that we can apparently no longer afford to have- it's the crisis you see- it's urgent. So to save the western world we have to trash it's values and it's freedoms.

So in the end we may find that the final destination of capitalism will look no different to that of socialism- certainly the version of capitalism we have now is as ideologically driven, and as flawed, as any soviet fantasy- and the message seems strikingly similar.

Strip away the rhetoric and both the Neo Liberal right and the Soviet Socialist Republic have a similar tale to tell- it's a tale of how individual suffering is a price worth paying in order to preserve the values of the system- that in the end the system is greater than the individual and those who get crushed beneath it's progress are a necessary lubricant on the path to the shining-ever retreating-future.

All of the above have a common thread - statism.

Democracy is at best, mob rule. At worst, the mob don't even influence those at the levers of power.

Statism has failed, along with the last vestige of hope for it - democracy. Democracy has been shown to be a fop to the tax livestock, to make them think they have influence over the system; they don't and the sooner they realise that, we can start considering what a genuinely free society would be like instead.

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All of the above have a common thread - statism.

Democracy is at best, mob rule. At worst, the mob don't even influence those at the levers of power.

Statism has failed, along with the last vestige of hope for it - democracy. Democracy has been shown to be a fop to the tax livestock, to make them think they have influence over the system; they don't and the sooner they realise that, we can start considering what a genuinely free society would be like instead.

Go on then explain how your perfect system would work.

Whenever I read the thoughts of small / no-state libertarian types I admire their passion but question whether they've actually thought through how it would work in reality.

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Go on then explain how your perfect system would work.

Whenever I read the thoughts of small / no-state libertarian types I admire their passion but question whether they've actually thought through how it would work in reality.

It doesn't matter. Slavery is wrong.

People will find ways of organising themselves, without the need for orders from the top. If it helps, consider it would likely be a highly distributed, tax free, form of government. I can't highlight every detail of how everything will work, as I can't possibly know, but I can look to history for examples and consider what parallels would be drawn in the future. What I do know is: people do not need slave masters.

Stefan Molyneux puts it rather well below:

If you're genuinely interested, read around the subject and it may surprise you. I didn't even know what a free market anarchist was 4 years ago when I found this forum; I was just a disillusioned would be first time buyer who wondered what was going on. I then learned about economics and the need for no more than a small government. I then found myself making excuses for 'necessary evils' where I thought violence was needed in certain cases, before realising (mostly from reading some history, ultimately) this just wasn't the case.

When you boil all debates down far enough, you arrive at the logical junction of anarchy being the solution, IMO.

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But lets forget what Milgram observed and consider most people do as they are told by the State which is the authority figure. In some respects the state's authority creates unthinking people in society aka sheeple.

Yes, it's a very interesting study and suggests several things.

- People will do as they're told by a figure they trust as an authority, even if it is against their moral beliefs and even if it upsets them greatly.

- Most people do not willingly inflict levels of pain on others, unless under instruction of an authority which they trust. They know it's wrong morally, in their core.

However, if people no longer trust the figure of authority, they have no reason to go against their moral beliefs. Seeing the state for what it is - a violent, thieving system - removes the mask of authority, allowing those people to act on their morals instead.

I don't know whether it's been done, but an interesting extension of the experiment would be to have many teachers. I would expect that the teachers would turn on* any other teacher who did not follow the orders of the experimenter, as most respect the trusted authority.

You can draw a parallel to those who do not respect the state (the anarchists) as it does bad things, while all of those around them (most people, including those on this forum) defend it and ridicule those who highlight the immorality. They would say that the violence and theft (much like the shock treatment) is for the good of the individual, because the state (experimenter) says it is so - it is the law.

The reality is, the anarchists are just trying to demonstrate how the state is immoral. Theft, violence and tax slavery are wrong. The authorities cannot be trusted and people should instead rely on their own morality instead.

EDIT: reworded.

* I could be wrong though; perhaps collective morality would supersede the authority of the experimenter in the end?

Edited by Traktion

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Sweden is very nice and the Scandinavian countries have heavily planned economies. Maybe it can never be as good as a truely unplanned economy but unplanned economies have a habit of becoming planned economies pretty quickly due to a mixture sensible measures and corruption. Mostly corruption in the UK.

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There is also what Aschl observed which is conformity in groups ie society. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asch_conformity_experiments#Results

So the conclusion you can take is that the more people who read/watch/listen to Main Stream Media sources the more you can force conformity which is probably best examplified by the number of hours of property programs like:

homes under the hammer,

location location location,

Escape To The Country,

Fantasy Homes By The Sea,

To Buy Or Not To Buy,

To Build or Not to Build,

Hidden houses of Wales,

Grand Designs,

A place in the Sun

A place in the Sun:Down Under

Property Ladder,

A place by the Sea

A place in Greece

Build a new life in the country

Dream Homes,

Home from homes,

My first home,

Selling Houses

DIY:SOS

Tommy Walshes Flip that House

House Doctor

Celebrity Fantasy Homes

Extrem Makeover + variations

How clean is your house

Reloctaion, Relocation.

and I could go on!

The total number of hours committed to property in this country is staggering and I can see how people have been forced into conforming using what Milgram and Asch have observed. Plus knowing the banks dont flog their repossesions they sell them at discounts to subsiduary companies they have set up and then loan to these same subsiduaries at discounted rates below what the public would pay, property is a very rigged game in favour of the banker! :rolleyes:

So the bankers using their pets in government organise massive easy credit for the masses. And at the same time get their pets in their MSM to fill the goebals box, (sitting in every living room), with all that property shyte.

Large numbers of peoples jobs went all corporatist on them, mine did. The weather is mostly crap outside so in between celeb/corrie/pseudo news the masses get that constant MSM message. Christ! No wonder it went bonkers with nearly everyone out to lunch. Gonna be harder to pick up the pieces now and the jobs and the weather are still shyte.

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- that in the end the system is greater than the individual and those who get crushed beneath it's progress are a necessary lubricant on the path to the shining-ever retreating-future.

Really like that. Wish the Politicos realised it.

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  • 343 Brexit, House prices and Summer 2020

    1. 1. Including the effects Brexit, where do you think average UK house prices will be relative to now in June 2020?


      • down 5% +
      • down 2.5%
      • Even
      • up 2.5%
      • up 5%



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