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northwestsmith2

Is Working Worth It?

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As to the thorny examples that seem to show working now isn't worth it as the state (or that's the implication), will look after you, personally I think the days of dole dossing are over soon, because we know the state can't afford it.

Is it? I've been hearing this little chestnut for a while though.

It's not exactly more cost effective to lock them up if they start rioting again either. Then again if we can shell out c£30k to prosecute and lock up £3.50 bottle of water thieves, obviously there's still plenty of coin left in the pot.

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All the lads of our joint venture Directors in IT Services work at weekends in the business. £110 a shift for them 3 times better than a bar job. Because a joint venture (6 directors) probably 15-20 of them between uni/jobs etc. Also lads and lasses from employees of the two companies and the odd clients. Makes for a very healthy 'village' where work rate is high, standards are high and even though they are low key (all part of the role in my view) other contractors soon get a feel for who they are and hence the shift invariable goes smoothly.

It was an unexpected by product of creating the business but stops them especially the 19 year olds plus from keep putting their hands in their Dad's pockets. Now you still lend them money but just send a mail to our financial controller to treat as an advance and take out of their pay packet and pay back to Dad, very effective.

I can see one or more of them running it in ten years time.

Lets hope none of your competitors are running a meritocracy so that you can actually last that ten.

If they are, you are hosed.

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Sorry is it what, I've missed what we are talking about poppy ole chap.

The coalition are claiming to be paupers, yet are still spending like it's no tomorrow.

Going on the govt's actions, there's obviously plenty of money left, so the social bribe will continue.

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Lets hope none of your competitors are running a meritocracy so that you can actually last that ten.

If they are, you are hosed.

1. First of all not our core business.

2. Our model is probably more unique than most how many students do you know at uni that are security cleared to work in data centres?

3. Only 5 full time employees and shares premises with the two joint venture partners - very low overhead

4. It can't be outsourced

You never quite like a bit of success do you Injin? probably all that being locked in a cupboard or whatever when you were a kid. Surely a company that pays good money to it's staff (the £110 is low end of the scale most of the 200 contractors earn £200+ a shift) is UK based and has grown should be encouraged?

I think what you have missed is that is a meritocracy but not a co-operative but you have never struck me as someone who could really run large teams of people too busy looking for the downside of life.

Of course it can always be hosed any business can but there are large niches where it is much harder to enter than people think. Especially business to business services that cannot be physically done from Mumbai.

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1. First of all not our core business.

2. Our model is probably more unique than most how many students do you know at uni that are security cleared to work in data centres?

3. Only 5 full time employees and shares premises with the two joint venture partners - very low overhead

4. It can't be outsourced

You never quite like a bit of success do you Injin? probably all that being locked in a cupboard or whatever when you were a kid. Surely a company that pays good money to it's staff (the £110 is low end of the scale most of the 200 contractors earn £200+ a shift) is UK based and has grown should be encouraged?

I think what you have missed is that is a meritocracy but not a co-operative but you have never struck me as someone who could really run large teams of people too busy looking for the downside of life.

Of course it can always be hosed any business can but there are large niches where it is much harder to enter than people think. Especially business to business services that cannot be physically done from Mumbai.

Oh ok. Whatever.

I just sort of understand that nepotism is ruthlessly punished by (free) markets.

I'm guessing you aren't all that near one though..... business to business - that wouldn't be serving the state at the end of the day, would it?

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Oh ok. Whatever.

I just sort of understand that nepotism is ruthlessly punished by (free) markets.

I'm guessing you aren't all that near one though..... business to business - that wouldn't be serving the state at the end of the day, would it?

Don't think it is because no market is free. Haven't got one State client either not even a Charity. I am in a free market though. Not regulated anyone can enter but surely nepotism, looking after your own including clients is what most people have lost?

People (not saying you ) think all markets are HMV being crushed by Amazon type markets when in fact the majority of business to business markets are not. They are a myriad of niches where contacts, service and quality still play a large role. In fact in IT you would be surprised at the amount of work that doesn't get tendered for, the stuff that does is usually the stuff that fails that you see on tv.

By the way we don 't practice what I call management nepotism the roles I am talking about are essentially part time contractor roles. that sort of nepotism I think does get punished.

It;s funny with all the social media stuff you would of thought younger generations would of been extremely successful at winning business, I sense though that they have lots of connections but no contacts and contacts are where your next deal comes from.

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Don't think it is because no market is free. Haven't got one State client either not even a Charity. I am in a free market though. Not regulated anyone can enter but surely nepotism, looking after your own including clients is what most people have lost?

People (not saying you ) think all markets are HMV being crushed by Amazon type markets when in fact the majority of business to business markets are not. They are a myriad of niches where contacts, service and quality still play a large role. In fact in IT you would be surprised at the amount of work that doesn't get tendered for, the stuff that does is usually the stuff that fails that you see on tv.

By the way we don 't practice what I call management nepotism the roles I am talking about are essentially part time contractor roles. that sort of nepotism I think does get punished.

It;s funny with all the social media stuff you would of thought younger generations would of been extremely successful at winning business, I sense though that they have lots of connections but no contacts and contacts are where your next deal comes from.

What I find scary about your business model - and it definitely looks the way businesses are going now - is that, from what you've said, all your "employees" are part time contractors. So they are all basically self employed. They have no job security, no holiday pay, sick leave etc, and you have no obligation to offer any of them work next week. I've been an I.T. contractor. It sucks. There's no job security. Yes you have work, but you can't borrow money, like getting a mortgage. The bank's reaction is to not lend to contractors who, while well paid, are little more than casual workers, because there is no guaranteed income. And while that's no different to permanent employment, - even the permanently employed can be laid off at any time - at least they would get some redundancy payout, something to cushion them while they are looking for something else. And at least they can get a mortgage.

Not so with your business model. You want to profit out of someone else's labour but not take any responsibility for them in the longer term. They're helping you grow your business, but, as you say, those contacts are yours.

There's a pizza place across the road from us. Independently owned - not one of the big chains. The most hours he employs people for is 15 hours a week. He is open about it - he doesn't want the hassle and complications of sick leave, holiday pay, NI contributions etc. And they are all on zero hours rated contracts. In winter when the business is down there's pretty much just him for most of the day. I can see his point of view - why should someone else get paid if he isn't, and fair enough, I suppose. But at the same time, it seems immoral.

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What I find scary about your business model - and it definitely looks the way businesses are going now - is that, from what you've said, all your "employees" are part time contractors. So they are all basically self employed. They have no job security, no holiday pay, sick leave etc, and you have no obligation to offer any of them work next week. I've been an I.T. contractor. It sucks. There's no job security. Yes you have work, but you can't borrow money, like getting a mortgage. The bank's reaction is to not lend to contractors who, while well paid, are little more than casual workers, because there is no guaranteed income. And while that's no different to permanent employment, - even the permanently employed can be laid off at any time - at least they would get some redundancy payout, something to cushion them while they are looking for something else. And at least they can get a mortgage.

Not so with your business model. You want to profit out of someone else's labour but not take any responsibility for them in the longer term. They're helping you grow your business, but, as you say, those contacts are yours.

There's a pizza place across the road from us. Independently owned - not one of the big chains. The most hours he employs people for is 15 hours a week. He is open about it - he doesn't want the hassle and complications of sick leave, holiday pay, NI contributions etc. And they are all on zero hours rated contracts. In winter when the business is down there's pretty much just him for most of the day. I can see his point of view - why should someone else get paid if he isn't, and fair enough, I suppose. But at the same time, it seems immoral.

Not immoral really, just completely unsustainable.

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Not immoral really, just completely unsustainable.

Why unsustainable? Supply of labour is more than demand. Britain grows by around 400,000 people a year, so that situation may well continue. And why not immoral? Human beings aren't machines. Surely if we are going to employ them we should also be offering them continuity of employment? After all, we pay for the floor space the machine is sitting on, irrespective of whether we actually turn the machine on.

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Why unsustainable? Supply of labour is more than demand.

It is, but only because someone else is providing the capital. Without that, then people have to pay for things through savings and investment - which require security and longevity of employment and so on.

Britain grows by around 400,000 people a year, so that situation may well continue. And why not immoral? Human beings aren't machines. Surely if we are going to employ them we should also be offering them continuity of employment? After all, we pay for the floor space the machine is sitting on, irrespective of whether we actually turn the machine on.

No one owes anybody anything.

It's the only morality that makes any sense.

As for the comment about paying for floor space, that IS immoral.

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Bingo.

"I either want less corruption or more chance to take part in it."

So you think a classic tender process with an Ojec posting and presided over by a 25 year old graduate who was buying sweets last week and now is buying a complex business service is not corrupt/stupid/waste of everyone's time.

You confuse personal relations with corruption.

You really don't know how business works do you?

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Why unsustainable? Supply of labour is more than demand. Britain grows by around 400,000 people a year, so that situation may well continue. And why not immoral? Human beings aren't machines. Surely if we are going to employ them we should also be offering them continuity of employment? After all, we pay for the floor space the machine is sitting on, irrespective of whether we actually turn the machine on.

You raise some good points and raised some others in post 111.

Companies need customers and customers need to earn money. One of the big reasons people spend or do not spend is sentiment . Without any job security people will not buy big items and as you say they cannot get a mortgage. At one point they could self cert ect , which was ok untill it was abused and that has now gone.

We are all dependent on each other but at the moment big companies have ripped up the unsaid rule book and gone to grab more and more , but for them to survive in the long run they will have to wake up to the fact that if they destroy peoples security they will then destroy their customer base.

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So you think a classic tender process with an Ojec posting and presided over by a 25 year old graduate who was buying sweets last week and now is buying a complex business service is not corrupt/stupid/waste of everyone's time.

You confuse personal relations with corruption.

You really don't know how business works do you?

I only know about your business what you tell me.

In this case, that you could be nepotistic because you aren't in the free market.

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Mmmmm if you've watched the News night interview last night Osborne says something like Economics will always trump democracy, (Quote from KM), so in other words you can promise what you like but when the money runs out / or the situation changes, things which you were entitled to in the past might / will not always be there in the future, i.e. they can be repealed.

I don't think the NHS can go on in it's present form either, but that's a debate for another day.

He said that economics will always trump politics

And politics in Europe has precious little to do with democracy.

:blink:

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You raise some good points and raised some others in post 111.

Companies need customers and customers need to earn money. One of the big reasons people spend or do not spend is sentiment . Without any job security people will not buy big items and as you say they cannot get a mortgage. At one point they could self cert ect , which was ok untill it was abused and that has now gone.

We are all dependent on each other but at the moment big companies have ripped up the unsaid rule book and gone to grab more and more , but for them to survive in the long run they will have to wake up to the fact that if they destroy peoples security they will then destroy their customer base.

I think you confuse job security with an employment contract. Our top people 40+ in number have been with us 15 plus years and they are not earning pizza parlour money. True security comes from having a skill you can trade for good or better money. Our top people are requested for personally by our blue chip clients. That is ultimately far more secure than sitting waiting for the next round of cuts to collect your 12 weeks at whatever £160? 7 or 8 shifts to my guys.

We have two brothers who with the provision of some juniors as well as them (yes their family) grossed £270k + last year a tidy little business within a business, and they do other stuff.

Job security only comes from having skills in demand you just have to get the right skills - no amount of unionisation/law changes will make that much difference in a global economy.

Perhaps contracting isn't for everyone Debbie but others see employment as a prison, one mans meat and all that.

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I think you confuse job security with an employment contract. Our top people 40+ in number have been with us 15 plus years and they are not earning pizza parlour money. True security comes from having a skill you can trade for good or better money. Our top people are requested for personally by our blue chip clients. That is ultimately far more secure than sitting waiting for the next round of cuts to collect your 12 weeks at whatever £160? 7 or 8 shifts to my guys.

We have two brothers who with the provision of some juniors as well as them (yes their family) grossed £270k + last year a tidy little business within a business, and they do other stuff.

Job security only comes from having skills in demand you just have to get the right skills - no amount of unionisation/law changes will make that much difference in a global economy.

Perhaps contracting isn't for everyone Debbie but others see employment as a prison, one mans meat and all that.

A short term contract that lasts 15 years.

Someone needs a dictionary.

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No one owes anybody anything.

It's the only morality that makes any sense.

As for the comment about paying for floor space, that IS immoral.

What ah attitude! And you accuse me of being immoral??!!

That kind of attitude only works if you are fortunate enough to be in a position where you can support yourself without depending on someone else to provide you a job to do, someone else to buy your products/services, or the state. But what about all the taxpayers who footed the bill while you were in school and going onto further education? How about the roads you've used all your life, paid for by other people, some of them long dead? Or the clean water that comes out of your tap every day for which you pay a pittance that in no way, shape or form, reflects the actual cost of providing that water to you? I would say we all have a responsibility to each other to make sure we all at least have a decent education, decent accommodation and a basis living standard, regardless of our ability to contribute to the bill.

If we are prepared to use other people's labour in pursuit of our own profits, we should at least have the courtesy to provide them with a job they can depend on and a living wage. Employers who take advantage of the system, either by employing people on zero hours contracts or at the minimum wage just because they can, even if they are making five times that much out of them every hour, are immoral.

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I only know about your business what you tell me.

In this case, that you could be nepotistic because you aren't in the free market.

Yawn one more time. I employ my family millions do why not? I do not get work from my family I operate two or three businesses in IT services an unregulated, unprotected market which is a probably as near to a free market as you can get.

So internal nepostism yes, external no fairly standard model the world over so are you just being obtuse or is it another chip because your old man didn't create a business where you could do some shifts in?

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What ah attitude! And you accuse me of being immoral??!!

That kind of attitude only works if you are fortunate enough to be in a position where you can support yourself without depending on someone else to provide you a job to do, someone else to buy your products/services, or the state. But what about all the taxpayers who footed the bill while you were in school and going onto further education? How about the roads you've used all your life, paid for by other people, some of them long dead? Or the clean water that comes out of your tap every day for which you pay a pittance that in no way, shape or form, reflects the actual cost of providing that water to you? I would say we all have a responsibility to each other to make sure we all at least have a decent education, decent accommodation and a basis living standard, regardless of our ability to contribute to the bill.

If we are prepared to use other people's labour in pursuit of our own profits, we should at least have the courtesy to provide them with a job they can depend on and a living wage. Employers who take advantage of the system, either by employing people on zero hours contracts or at the minimum wage just because they can, even if they are making five times that much out of them every hour, are immoral.

You make some great comments Debbie but when was business about courtesy?

If you want to change it - start a business. Oh I forgot before everyone posts on I was lucky, I was in the right place right time and all that cods. If you want to make the change change it. If not well....

We still have a very benign business environment go for it.

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Job security only comes from having skills in demand you just have to get the right skills - no amount of unionisation/law changes will make that much difference in a global economy.

Security comes from having skills in demand , well people cannot just change horses when the elite have changed the race . I had skills that were in demand and everyone in my industry did , but they took most of that industry abroad . leaving many without saleable skills , you can blame those who have lost their jobs that it was their fault for not seeing in the future 20+ years ago . However it does not matter who blames who the biggest problem at the moment and will always be a big problem is that SENTIMENT rules , if people have no security they will not spend even if they are earning well on contracts , it does not bode well for companies looking for customers.

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What ah attitude! And you accuse me of being immoral??!!

No. I said )or rather implied) that charging people simply for being somwhere was immoral.

That kind of attitude only works if you are fortunate enough to be in a position where you can support yourself without depending on someone else to provide you a job to do, someone else to buy your products/services, or the state. But what about all the taxpayers who footed the bill while you were in school and going onto further education? How about the roads you've used all your life, paid for by other people, some of them long dead? Or the clean water that comes out of your tap every day for which you pay a pittance that in no way, shape or form, reflects the actual cost of providing that water to you? I would say we all have a responsibility to each other to make sure we all at least have a decent education, decent accommodation and a basis living standard, regardless of our ability to contribute to the bill.

What about them? Doing someone a favour in no way means they automatically owe you back.

If we are prepared to use other people's labour in pursuit of our own profits, we should at least have the courtesy to provide them with a job they can depend on and a living wage. Employers who take advantage of the system, either by employing people on zero hours contracts or at the minimum wage just because they can, even if they are making five times that much out of them every hour, are immoral.

I agree, but for different reasons.

People have had their ability to support themselves systematically stripped away. Then they are offered shit conditions, pay and so on once they are in that predicament.

Some people can wriggle through this mess, all power to them. Most people can't, and this inability to make a go of it is completely normal, the default.

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You make some great comments Debbie but when was business about courtesy?

If you want to change it - start a business. Oh I forgot before everyone posts on I was lucky, I was in the right place right time and all that cods. If you want to make the change change it. If not well....

We still have a very benign business environment go for it.

You were lucky.

You still are.

pro tip - more Taleb, less Tony Robbins.

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Security comes from having skills in demand , well people cannot just change horses when the elite have changed the race . I had skills that were in demand and everyone in my industry did , but they took most of that industry abroad . leaving many without saleable skills , you can blame those who have lost their jobs that it was their fault for not seeing in the future 20+ years ago . However it does not matter who blames who the biggest problem at the moment and will always be a big problem is that SENTIMENT rules , if people have no security they will not spend even if they are earning well on contracts , it does not bode well for companies looking for customers.

I have empathy but not sympathy. The world changes you have to find a way to change with it adapt or die and all that. What we haven't done is considered the micro systems around say a factory or mine when it closed and how do we keep the fabric of those communities alive.

As for the 'elites' it was on the cards thirty years ago. The factory I did mt technical apprenticeship in is now houses. Easy to blame the mythical elites much easier than looking in the mirror for most people.

Ever since we automated the curve was set you could see that from years ago. Don't by the elite theory if you own a business you want to get the raw input as cheap as possible be that materials or skills. Goes back thousands of years not tens.

The golden bubble where average people could earn great money (factory workers eraning twice what a headmaster earnt) was a bubble from 45 -to emid 70's.

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I have empathy but not sympathy. The world changes you have to find a way to change with it adapt or die and all that. What we haven't done is considered the micro systems around say a factory or mine when it closed and how do we keep the fabric of those communities alive.

As for the 'elites' it was on the cards thirty years ago. The factory I did mt technical apprenticeship in is now houses. Easy to blame the mythical elites much easier than looking in the mirror for most people.

That's because it is down to the elites. You know, they kinda force everyone to do what they want at gunpoint.

Ever since we automated the curve was set you could see that from years ago. Don't by the elite theory if you own a business you want to get the raw input as cheap as possible be that materials or skills. Goes back thousands of years not tens.

Business as we know it is 150-200 years old max.

The golden bubble where average people could earn great money (factory workers eraning twice what a headmaster earnt) was a bubble from 45 -to emid 70's.

Bad example, before state intervention teaching was one of the lowest paid jobs around.

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  • 315 Brexit, House prices and Summer 2020

    1. 1. Including the effects Brexit, where do you think average UK house prices will be relative to now in June 2020?


      • down 5% +
      • down 2.5%
      • Even
      • up 2.5%
      • up 5%



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