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Executive Sadman

Corporal Punishment, Yay Or Nay?

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http://www.independent.co.uk/news/education/education-news/parents-back-corporal-punishment-in-schools-2355544.html

Heard this on R2 yesterday. Was already done away with by the time i was at school, but my dad seems to think it did him good, as he was usually late for school and has never been late for work. (he is very punctual, to be fair)

Some of the arguments against it seem strange. Like violence is wrong, so corporal punishment is wrong.

Unprovoked violence is wrong, yes, defensive violence is necessary and good.

Holding people against their will is wrong, yet we still have prisons.

I do think it was applied far too liberally in the past, for often minor infractions. However, if a pupil is being violent towards other pupils or staff, it seems a smack might be in order, as a last resort, like. Or lock them in a cupboard maybe.

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Couldn't bring it back even if we wanted to. The fear of authority no longer exists. If a headmaster caned some little b*stard who absolutely deserved it, chances are the local gang would stab the headmaster before the end of the day.

It's beautiful in so many ways. The competitive advantage of the private schools maintained by the lack of ability/will to enforce discipline in the comps for the rest of time.

The real damage inflicted by the well-meaning but misguided likes of Camila Batmanghelidjh.

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Bring back the stocks too as a cheaper alternative to prison/community work.

I've got lots of friends with little kids and TBH some of them really struggle at getting their kids to behave.

I generally excuse myself and leave when the kids misbehave as it's painful to watch a mum so out of control.

I think parenting classes are needed. You don't need to batter kids to make them behave, but the idea that they could be smacked hard (You're not allowed to leave a mark AFAIUTL)

will stop lots of them.

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Bring back the stocks too as a cheaper alternative to prison/community work.

I've got lots of friends with little kids and TBH some of them really struggle at getting their kids to behave.

I generally excuse myself and leave when the kids misbehave as it's painful to watch a mum so out of control.

I think parenting classes are needed. You don't need to batter kids to make them behave, but the idea that they could be smacked hard (You're not allowed to leave a mark AFAIUTL)

will stop lots of them.

Caning was very popular when I was at school.To be perfectly frank a lot of the masters had a rather too unhealthy enjoyment of the practice.Quite apart from that the ones who were frequently caned turned out to be the bad eggs so I don't follow the logic.

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This is all so fifteenth century.

Hitting kids with sticks or pelting kids with rotten fruit is like something out of the dark ages.

We don't need to do this when we have the modern wonder of electricity.

Each child has an ankle tag. Volts dependent on age. Teachers/parents have control panels to administer shocks via a wireless controller.

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Corporal punishment may not be a perfect system, but the current one is hardly an improvement.

Corporal punishment was in place when I was at school. Canings were quite rare. I never got the cane, nor did any of my mates. It wasn't like an episode of Whack-O!

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Jesus. What IS it about people that they feel they need to inflict pain on anything weaker than themselves?

If you hit a child, you have lost the argument. End of.

A child hits another child, so you show that child it has done something wrong by inflicting violence on it. Err...yep.

Its about discipline and respect, plain and simple. You give children CLEAR boundaries, you let them know what is right and wrong. You give them moral guidance and teach them their place in the world in relation to others. Worked for me and many others I know just fine.

I am also always intrigued by people who want it for other kids but not for theirs...

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Jesus. What IS it about people that they feel they need to inflict pain on anything weaker than themselves?

If you hit a child, you have lost the argument. End of.

A child hits another child, so you show that child it has done something wrong by inflicting violence on it. Err...yep.

Its about discipline and respect, plain and simple. You give children CLEAR boundaries, you let them know what is right and wrong. You give them moral guidance and teach them their place in the world in relation to others. Worked for me and many others I know just fine.

I am also always intrigued by people who want it for other kids but not for theirs...

If my kid misbehaves at school, and that school implements the cane, and both child and parent know the consequences of misbeahiour, then yes - cane them.

It might have worked for you, it also worked for me, but it doesn't work for EVERYONE - if you believe that then you are making generalisations. Hell, if you are going to go down that route:

"His Holiness' parents were small farmers who mostly grew barley, buckwheat and potatoes. His father was a man of medium height with a very quick temper. I remember pulling at his moustache once and being hit hard for my trouble, recalls His Holiness. Yet he was a kind man too and he never bore grudges. His Holiness recalls his mother as undoubtedly one of the kindest people I have ever known. She had a total of sixteen children, of whom seven lived."

http://www.dalailama.com/biography/from-birth-to-exile

He turned out OK...

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That's fine. As long there is a suitable alternative discipline available.

Hitting is not the way forward, but for me, kicking the living shit out of some of the young teenage lads round my way would seem to be the only available option that might have any effect on them at all. Their behaviour is filth, and whilst hitting is not ideal, they'd soon learn if their arms were broken each time they robed a car stereo.

if they sre stealing they almost certainly have had the shit kicked out of them already.

The correlations between child abuse and crime are extraorindary.

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Those figures are predictable considering the lack of a decent definition of an ACE. Likewise becuase you cant measure the ACE its hard to quantify its significance becuase like we see with X-Factor, some people vote for the best singer, some people vote for the one they like irrespective of their vocal talent and thus letting the "victim" decide what is an ACE means the study(s) are wildly open to interpretation.

Put another way I noticed the correlation with smoking, but what it didnt measure and cant measure is the other factors that might make someone start smoking like personality type and how much testostorone they have. There are similar correlations with smokers and testostorone and various spin offs as examplified here.

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/1999/09/990914082344.htm

http://www.neoteny.org/neoteny/a/estrogen.html

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16390745

http://www.springerlink.com/content/j967lq481t354453/

If anything T is a greater factor to start smoking than having exposure to one or more ACE's yet to watch that film suggests otherwise.

Likewise the ACE number correlating to increasing incidence of COPD is also entirely predicatable, becuase it goes without saying if someone smokes they increase their chance of COPD, likewise the more they smoke the greater the risk of COPD becuase it increase stress levels. All entirely predictable tbh and it seems to me that this study is just justifying its existance like we see with the statisticians who massage the figures for drug companies looking for a licence to sell their new drug to treat a problem.

At best all it can say is there a loose correlation or small statistical link that suggests exposure to something bad might increase cognitive dissonance which can increase stress in an individual which will lead to a path frowned up like smoking, drug use and alcoholism (all highly subjective to quantify) but what those figures didnt show is that this is a statistical correlation product, in otherwords its the result of other more significant factors not related to ACE but someone has found a pattern and presenting it as fact.

Too flip it around, look at the numbers who dont exhibit these things like smoking who have been exposed to a self defined ACE, the best those figures could achieve was around 16% which is more inline with normal bell curve distribution tbh.

This is the problem with science it usually focuses on one minute detail and the statisticians draw a conclusion without weighing up the other factors and becuase of this whilst they can find a pattern when weighed up with other factors, its just a statistical product of other factors.

If this study wants to get any credence, they should quantify the ACE for a start and then look across all age groups so people like soldiers or police (possibly nurses) who have seen violence can be measured and then look at the figures.

Glad you agree.

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Bring back the stocks too as a cheaper alternative to prison/community work.

I've got lots of friends with little kids and TBH some of them really struggle at getting their kids to behave.

I generally excuse myself and leave when the kids misbehave as it's painful to watch a mum so out of control.

I think parenting classes are needed. You don't need to batter kids to make them behave, but the idea that they could be smacked hard (You're not allowed to leave a mark AFAIUTL)

will stop lots of them.

Also a brilliant, green use of rotten fruit and veg.;)

Seriously, though, I would like to see the days when kids can accuse a teacher of harrassment if they so much as point a finger at a pupil.

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Corporal punishment was still used at my school quite some time after it had been stopped elsewhere. "It never did me any harm" of course but neither did stop me from acting like a little git. I don't see the point of bringing something back that doesn't work.

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All I have stated is that there is a naturally occuring statistical correlation due to population distribution. Its like an equal and opposite reaction, but had the data shown higher figures closer to 50% or even above then I would say they have a point, but they are refering to at best a 16% correlation which is less than the others. If anything its just creating an excuse to justify their behaviour which is also morally questionable.

I dont know if you saw this program. http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b014kj65

It stated that 30% of babies would select the bad puppet. However what they didnt measure is the personality type of the babies in later life as one factor to consider.

It was so wrong to draw a conclusion suggesting those 30% of babies are potential psychopaths becuase what they didnt measure is if the babies who chose the bad toy were drawn to it for other reasons like colour or some other reason.

Did they repeat the experiment and swap the good and bad toys around from left to right for example and draw a conclusion then? No.

Had they done this then could have some claim to authenticity and validity.

I know they showed some brain mapping which showed Psychos brain worked differently in the amygdala what they cant show is why. Until they can measure and prove why, those psychos can only best be described by as a product of their biological make up which is no fault of their own in some ways. Likewise in these instances I would say its against a persons human right to be punished for their biological make up afterall disabled people are not punished or discriminated against so why should psycho's? May be the state needs to spend more time identifying individuals better in order to afford them the care and help in order to avoid actions which are punishable, just to cast an alternative perspective. :)

Your comments prove you didn't watch the videos.

This means you agree with the results and don't even have to watch.

:)

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Have you never heard of the saying sometimes "you need to be cruel to be kind"?

Having thought about this subject for a good number of years, one thing that has occurred to me is it might pay to identify the type of personality a child had. Reaosn I say this is if you read what they say about INJ kids and INTJ kids you would see my character traits. With hindsight the teachers and other adults didnt spot this. I can see why I was like I was at school becuase I bored and disruptive most of the time. If teh state can provide extra resources for disabled kids, why dont they provide the one to one resource for the INJ types for example, they would get a better return on their investment then.

http://www.personalitypage.com/html/INJ.html

Cruel to be kind? are you having a bloody laugh?

My point of view is shaped by the fact that I find hitting a child because he or she is not doing what you want them to do, nothing short of dumb. If an adult p!ssed you off and didn't do what you asked, would you smack them one? not usually, no, so why is it acceptable to do the same if its a child? If a child has an undiagnosed personality disorder and is disrupting the class, then how does caning him make him better?

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Why would we bring back corporal punishment for children

or even contemplate doing so before bringing it back for adults 1st ?

or do the people who make the laws not want to put their erse on the line as well.

Let them watch public floggings of murderers rapists bankers politicians and they

might get the message and conform before we have to reform them

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Thats rather assertive, prove I didnt watch them back up your statement with an explanation as to how you drew this conclusion. If you can. :D

Nope.

:)

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Well as you have failed to reply to me on this discussion http://www.housepricecrash.co.uk/forum/index.php?showtopic=169144&view=findpost&p=3119174

and you cant even afford a common courtesy to provide anything other than soundbite answers, I can only conclude you are lazy and dont have anything credible to say of any substance. :)

So for a period of time I wont be responding to you until such time I see fit. :D

Changes nothing.

Neither does a sea of fog.

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You failed to take into account what I have said elsewhere go back reread and understand what I said, then you will have a different pov.

To even suggest an INTJ is a personality disorder also shows your ignorance on the subject but thats understandable not everyone is alike. :)

I'm sorry...where ON EARTH did I say that INTJ was a personality disorder? now who is the one not reading properly?

Back of the class. Now.

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I see that those who don't seem to be able to tell the difference between children and adults are out in force again, whilst also ignoring millions of years of evolution that resulted in children having the drive to push their luck (otherwise they'd mope around the cave and starve), with their parents or group disciplining them when they go too far (otherwise they either end up killing themselves, or causing too much damage to the rest of the group). Those mechanisms evolved before speech and probably much in the way of thought, where a slap is about the only mechanism available. Such behaviour, and the only really effective response to it, is built in to our very nature. Denying it is naive and dangerous, as we see. Not tolerating psychos who'll kick the crap out of children at any excuse, or the sadistic teacher who enjoys caning as many kids as possible, does not mean letting them run wild. Other punishments that they can't simply ignore or dodge around might work too but no-one seems to have been successful in finding them.

No doubt the usual suspects will froth at the mouth about this.

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I see that those who don't seem to be able to tell the difference between children and adults are out in force again, whilst also ignoring millions of years of evolution that resulted in children having the drive to push their luck (otherwise they'd mope around the cave and starve), with their parents or group disciplining them when they go too far (otherwise they either end up killing themselves, or causing too much damage to the rest of the group). Those mechanisms evolved before speech and probably much in the way of thought, where a slap is about the only mechanism available. Such behaviour, and the only really effective response to it, is built in to our very nature. Denying it is naive and dangerous, as we see. Not tolerating psychos who'll kick the crap out of children at any excuse, or the sadistic teacher who enjoys caning as many kids as possible, does not mean letting them run wild. Other punishments that they can't simply ignore or dodge around might work too but no-one seems to have been successful in finding them.

No doubt the usual suspects will froth at the mouth about this.

Well animals use corporal punishment. At least I have seen cats, dogs and sheep do so.

I suppose it is not only bred into us, but also it works because over millenia, youngsters, (human and animal) have responded.

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I see that those who don't seem to be able to tell the difference between children and adults are out in force again, whilst also ignoring millions of years of evolution that resulted in children having the drive to push their luck (otherwise they'd mope around the cave and starve), with their parents or group disciplining them when they go too far (otherwise they either end up killing themselves, or causing too much damage to the rest of the group). Those mechanisms evolved before speech and probably much in the way of thought, where a slap is about the only mechanism available. Such behaviour, and the only really effective response to it, is built in to our very nature. Denying it is naive and dangerous, as we see. Not tolerating psychos who'll kick the crap out of children at any excuse, or the sadistic teacher who enjoys caning as many kids as possible, does not mean letting them run wild. Other punishments that they can't simply ignore or dodge around might work too but no-one seems to have been successful in finding them.

No doubt the usual suspects will froth at the mouth about this.

The testing has been done.

The evidence is in.

You are empirically incorrect.

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if they sre stealing they almost certainly have had the shit kicked out of them already.

The correlations between child abuse and crime are extraorindary.

There are a high proportion of families where poor parenting is a hereditary disease. In those cases violence and crime are almost in the genes.

We learn most by our mistakes, all the things you don't even know you're doing have been honed by years of falling over, stubbing toes, cut fingers etc...

Most the mistakes we make in our natural development have pain as the negative, we learn as we don't like pain (well most of us ;) ) and develop.

Is a coffee table guilty of child abuse when a child trips over it or walks into it?

What's the best way for a child to learn that fire burns?

Is it not more humane to smack them and come out with some of that parental gold such as 'if you think that hurts, carry on playing with fire'.

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The testing has been done.

By who and funded by who?

The evidence is in.

The desired outcome you mean.

You are empirically incorrect.

He has an opinion that stands the test of time and common observation.

I didn't expect you to fall foul of agenda based science.

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