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Europe Is Turning Back To National Identity – And It's Exhilarating

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Europe is turning back to national identity – and it's exhilarating

At this point "pro-Europeans" have to stop talking rubbish and start on realpolitik. Alaric is not at the gates of Rome. Washington has not crossed the Delaware. Napoleon has not returned from Elba. All that may happen is that Europe's democracies, disregarded, distorted and corrupted for a quarter century by the oligarchs of Brussels, will crawl out from the shadow of the very Acropolis where democracy was born. For all sceptics of grand federations, gilded alliances, and upmarket mafias hatched down the ages in Europe's cloud-capped spas, this could be an exhilarating moment.

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That's a good article.

IMO, the support of a EUSSR or even an USE is not wanted by the average person and never was. It was about politicians and elites getting what they wanted, rather than what the people wanted.

We shouldn't be talking about re-drafting the Lisbon treaty either; we should be tearing it up. You don't even need a 'trading block' to allow trading. The whole thing is a pointless bureaucratic waste of time.

What amuses me though, is how many of the points can be made about our own government too. They too have overreached, not giving us referendums where required, increasing taxation and laws... where is 'our' government's legitimacy too? The ramping up of theft and violence, while supporting lobbying corporates, has been edging us closer to a fascist state for a long time.

IMO, the problem doesn't just rest with the EU; it rests with social democracy in its entirety. Neither the EU or the UK government has much legitimacy and I wonder how long it will be before people remove the blinkers and realise this.

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A bit of apt music? ;)

Chaos A.D.

Tanks On The Streets

Confronting Police

Bleeding The Plebs

Raging Crowd

Burning Cars

Bloodshed Starts

Who'll Be Alive?!

Chaos A.D.

Army In Siege

Total Alarm

I'm Sick Of This

Inside The State

War Is Created

No Man's Land

What Is This Shit?!

Refuse/Resist

Refuse

Chaos A.D.

Disorder Unleashed

Starting To Burn

Starting To Lynch

Silence Means Death

Stand On Your Feet

Inner Fear

Your Worst Enemy

Refuse/Resist

EDIT: Actually, most of the tracks off Chaos A.D. are pretty apt, TBH.

Edited by Traktion

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Still too many pro-Euro idiots in the comments section for me to get too excited.

There are too many pro-euros about wallowing in some Euro dream that does not exist. Co-operation amongst nation states is all that is needed. Encourage trade but do not rape away our democracy thanks. The Euro voice is now without authority. The warnings not taken seriously 20 years ago are demonstrably true. The article is spot on. Cameron failed to deliver on a Euro referendum and it is not clear why - the excuse was pathetic. I think we should all clamour for one again! Unless there is one as promised I shall have to back UKIP. The EU is the cause of many of the UK's problems and we have not had so many of the advantages - we would have traded with Euroland anyway. The Germans and French would have sent us their goods anyway. It has all been based on fear and a false fear that sopmehow if we were out we'd suffer. Bo*****s. We may well have trade and opportunities which we do not enjoy now aswell.

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There are too many pro-euros about wallowing in some Euro dream that does not exist. Co-operation amongst nation states is all that is needed. Encourage trade but do not rape away our democracy thanks. The Euro voice is now without authority. The warnings not taken seriously 20 years ago are demonstrably true. The article is spot on. Cameron failed to deliver on a Euro referendum and it is not clear why - the excuse was pathetic. I think we should all clamour for one again! Unless there is one as promised I shall have to back UKIP. The EU is the cause of many of the UK's problems and we have not had so many of the advantages - we would have traded with Euroland anyway. The Germans and French would have sent us their goods anyway. It has all been based on fear and a false fear that sopmehow if we were out we'd suffer. Bo*****s. We may well have trade and opportunities which we do not enjoy now aswell.

The usual brainless anti-euro piffle, I see. The European Single Market has been a major boon to Europe's manufacturers and has allowed them to compete better against those with other large home markets, in the US and China, for example. Leaving the Single Market would be a real blow to UK producers, which is why any politicians remotely likely to gain power would not consider doing so.

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The usual brainless anti-euro piffle, I see. The European Single Market has been a major boon to Europe's manufacturers and has allowed them to compete better against those with other large home markets, in the US and China, for example. Leaving the Single Market would be a real blow to UK producers, which is why any politicians remotely likely to gain power would not consider doing so.

Don't think there was much mention of the single market, tbh.

Much mention of reverting to more powerful nation states instead of effectively federalised governments. Not too sure how they are different thing - can you elucidate?

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The usual brainless anti-euro piffle, I see. The European Single Market has been a major boon to Europe's manufacturers and has allowed them to compete better against those with other large home markets, in the US and China, for example. Leaving the Single Market would be a real blow to UK producers, which is why any politicians remotely likely to gain power would not consider doing so.

I rest my case. Your thoughts are not based on anything but this irrational fear that somehow a country cannot trade if not in the EU. It should have remained a Common Market then all would be well. Euroland would not deny us access as it would not remotely be in their interests to do so.

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The usual brainless anti-euro piffle, I see. The European Single Market has been a major boon to Europe's manufacturers and has allowed them to compete better against those with other large home markets, in the US and China, for example. Leaving the Single Market would be a real blow to UK producers, which is why any politicians remotely likely to gain power would not consider doing so.

I'm sure most people support open trade across Europe.

A centrist, undemocratic federal state ruling over the true democratic nation-states... no thanks.

Try to distinguish the two.

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The usual brainless anti-euro piffle, I see. The European Single Market has been a major boon to Europe's manufacturers and has allowed them to compete better against those with other large home markets, in the US and China, for example. Leaving the Single Market would be a real blow to UK producers, which is why any politicians remotely likely to gain power would not consider doing so.

Lending countries money they can't repay to buy other countries exports.

European Market is good in theory but not working out in practice so far. :unsure:

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I'm sure most people support open trade across Europe.

A centrist, undemocratic federal state ruling over the true democratic nation-states... no thanks.

Try to distinguish the two.

+1 to you and the other posters with exactly the same reply.

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That's a good article.

IMO, the support of a EUSSR or even an USE is not wanted by the average person and never was. It was about politicians and elites getting what they wanted, rather than what the people wanted.

We shouldn't be talking about re-drafting the Lisbon treaty either; we should be tearing it up. You don't even need a 'trading block' to allow trading. The whole thing is a pointless bureaucratic waste of time.

What amuses me though, is how many of the points can be made about our own government too. They too have overreached, not giving us referendums where required, increasing taxation and laws... where is 'our' government's legitimacy too? The ramping up of theft and violence, while supporting lobbying corporates, has been edging us closer to a fascist state for a long time.

IMO, the problem doesn't just rest with the EU; it rests with social democracy in its entirety. Neither the EU or the UK government has much legitimacy and I wonder how long it will be before people remove the blinkers and realise this.

Pretty sure A Darling in book said

"Blair & Brown were essentially Dictators"

Brussels?

Edited by erranta

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I'm sure most people support open trade across Europe.

A centrist, undemocratic federal state ruling over the true democratic nation-states... no thanks.

Try to distinguish the two.

Exactly.

It's not too difficult to grasp surely, even for the most rabid europhile? :rolleyes:

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I have shifted from being very pro EU to very hostile to it and all who sail in it- based on their now palpable contempt for the idea of democratic accountability.

On it's own this means nothing- I'm just another internet bullshi*tter.

But viewed symptomatically it may mean a lot- I'm not that unique- so it's safe to assume a lot of other minds have been changed in a similar way of late.

The Eurocracy have over reached and exposed their real attitude to the populations they seek to rule- and it's not a pretty sight.

It's instructive watching Nigel Ferrage's rant's on youtube, not just for the content of his speech's but to observe the reaction he gets from the assembled MEPs- the denial is palpable as they literally in some cases pull funny faces or blatently pull out their earphones to avoid having to deal with the very valid and real arguments he makes.

Unaccountable, arrogant, power crazed and indifferent to the additional suffering their hubris may bring on to the people's of Europe they will do anything to hold onto their positions.

Everyone know that Greece must default and exit the Euro- but they will keep tightening the austerity screws to maintain the fiction that this end can be avoided- f*ck the Greeks, save the Euro is their position.

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I have shifted from being very pro EU to very hostile to it and all who sail in it- based on their now palpable contempt for the idea of democratic accountability.

On it's own this means nothing- I'm just another internet bullshi*tter.

But viewed symptomatically it may mean a lot- I'm not that unique- so it's safe to assume a lot of other minds have been changed in a similar way of late.

The Eurocracy have over reached and exposed their real attitude to the populations they seek to rule- and it's not a pretty sight.

It's instructive watching Nigel Ferrage's rant's on youtube, not just for the content of his speech's but to observe the reaction he gets from the assembled MEPs- the denial is palpable as they literally in some cases pull funny faces or blatently pull out their earphones to avoid having to deal with the very valid and real arguments he makes.

Unaccountable, arrogant, power crazed and indifferent to the additional suffering their hubris may bring on to the people's of Europe they will do anything to hold onto their positions.

Everyone know that Greece must default and exit the Euro- but they will keep tightening the austerity screws to maintain the fiction that this end can be avoided- f*ck the Greeks, save the Euro is their position.

I'm sort of changing my thinking in a similar way but I'm still a long way away from Mr. Farrage. The problem with him is he rants too much, a bit like JD when he's on the radio. He might have a good point somewhere in the rant but I just can't take him seriously.

Sometimes I think the MEPs are more like the people who run FIFA than real politicians.

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I'm sort of changing my thinking in a similar way but I'm still a long way away from Mr. Farrage. The problem with him is he rants too much, a bit like JD when he's on the radio. He might have a good point somewhere in the rant but I just can't take him seriously.

Sometimes I think the MEPs are more like the people who run FIFA than real politicians.

Yes...a gravy train. ;)

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I have shifted from being very pro EU to very hostile to it and all who sail in it- based on their now palpable contempt for the idea of democratic accountability.

On it's own this means nothing- I'm just another internet bullshi*tter.

But viewed symptomatically it may mean a lot- I'm not that unique- so it's safe to assume a lot of other minds have been changed in a similar way of late.

The Eurocracy have over reached and exposed their real attitude to the populations they seek to rule- and it's not a pretty sight.

It's instructive watching Nigel Ferrage's rant's on youtube, not just for the content of his speech's but to observe the reaction he gets from the assembled MEPs- the denial is palpable as they literally in some cases pull funny faces or blatently pull out their earphones to avoid having to deal with the very valid and real arguments he makes.

Unaccountable, arrogant, power crazed and indifferent to the additional suffering their hubris may bring on to the people's of Europe they will do anything to hold onto their positions.

Everyone know that Greece must default and exit the Euro- but they will keep tightening the austerity screws to maintain the fiction that this end can be avoided- f*ck the Greeks, save the Euro is their position.

Welcome to the sane side of the argument.

The Euro enabled Germany to lend money to countries with basket case economies so they could buy German exports.

This helped fund the cost of reunification which is now going to be paid for by the people of Greece, Ireland, Portugal etc, etc over the next 20 to 30 years.

The only problem is the people of these countries have now realised they have been sold into decades of debt slavery by their ruling elites and are 'not very happy' about it.

At the end of the day, all Germany has done is given everyone free stuff for the last 10 years - because Greece, Portugal and Ireland etc,etc are sure as Hell not going to pay up.

This is why BMW dealers don't sell cars to tramps on 20 year loan terms - BECAUSE THEY WOULD NEVER GET THE MONEY.

:)

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This is the latest in a series of triumphant sallies by Jenkins. First up was his brilliant commentary on Libya, in which he argued against western intervention (abandoning the people of Benghazi to Gaddaffi). Then, with his Nimby National Trust hat on, doing his best to stop any reform of a planning system which has helped deliver this country's housing crisis. Now he wants to retreat even further behind his English cottage garden wall by arguing for a break up of the Eurozone.

Note the common thread - populist, easy option arguments, designed to appeal to the ageing baby boomer's isolationist and increasingly fearful instincts. The same people who see no moral hazard in pulling up the drawbridge on the next generation of homebuyers, or the people of Libya, will have no difficulty believing they can be safe from the consequences of the break up of the Eurozone.

Its a big bad world out there - a United States of Europe is not a luxury, its a necessity in an international environment where size matters. For those, like Jenkins (and a depressing number of people on HPC), who think we can go it alone, it is worth remembering the consequences of isolation; a British prime minister forced to fly to a hostile capital to appease an authoritarian regime. Munich, 1939 ? No, Moscow, 2011; Cameron grovelling before Putin and Medvedev in order to win a pathetic tranche of trade deals.

Would the Russians have risked sprinkling Polonium on the streets of New York, Paris or Berlin ? I don't think so. Village Idiot England is no option for England, never mind Europe.

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This is the latest in a series of triumphant sallies by Jenkins. First up was his brilliant commentary on Libya, in which he argued against western intervention (abandoning the people of Benghazi to Gaddaffi). Then, with his Nimby National Trust hat on, doing his best to stop any reform of a planning system which has helped deliver this country's housing crisis. Now he wants to retreat even further behind his English cottage garden wall by arguing for a break up of the Eurozone.

Note the common thread - populist, easy option arguments, designed to appeal to the ageing baby boomer's isolationist and increasingly fearful instincts. The same people who see no moral hazard in pulling up the drawbridge on the next generation of homebuyers, or the people of Libya, will have no difficulty believing they can be safe from the consequences of the break up of the Eurozone.

Its a big bad world out there - a United States of Europe is not a luxury, its a necessity in an international environment where size matters. For those, like Jenkins (and a depressing number of people on HPC), who think we can go it alone, it is worth remembering the consequences of isolation; a British prime minister forced to fly to a hostile capital to appease an authoritarian regime. Munich, 1939 ? No, Moscow, 2011; Cameron grovelling before Putin and Medvedev in order to win a pathetic tranche of trade deals.

Would the Russians have risked sprinkling Polonium on the streets of New York, Paris or Berlin ? I don't think so. Village Idiot England is no option for England, never mind Europe.

Terrifying.

Are you going to put a torch under your chin and go "wooooOOoooOooOo!" for your next post?

:lol::lol::lol:

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I have shifted from being very pro EU to very hostile to it and all who sail in it- based on their now palpable contempt for the idea of democratic accountability.

On it's own this means nothing- I'm just another internet bullshi*tter.

But viewed symptomatically it may mean a lot- I'm not that unique- so it's safe to assume a lot of other minds have been changed in a similar way of late.

The Eurocracy have over reached and exposed their real attitude to the populations they seek to rule- and it's not a pretty sight.

It's instructive watching Nigel Ferrage's rant's on youtube, not just for the content of his speech's but to observe the reaction he gets from the assembled MEPs- the denial is palpable as they literally in some cases pull funny faces or blatently pull out their earphones to avoid having to deal with the very valid and real arguments he makes.

Unaccountable, arrogant, power crazed and indifferent to the additional suffering their hubris may bring on to the people's of Europe they will do anything to hold onto their positions.

Everyone know that Greece must default and exit the Euro- but they will keep tightening the austerity screws to maintain the fiction that this end can be avoided- f*ck the Greeks, save the Euro is their position.

im pro europe, but the way the EU is run is not the model it should be.

it should be about nation states working together and cooperating but the reality of what they have actually created is a top down bureucratic organisation.

cooperating as a union is a good thing make things simpler, but there is no co-operation within the EU. member states have no say in what goes on.

legislation can only be created by 27 commissioners who are not elected. it is single body creating everything, no counter side, no debate.

thats not how its supposed to be, but thats what they have created.

Edited by mfp123

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Jenkins has already done it for me, and yes - he scares me to death.

How so?

Pointing out an inevitable trend only scares you if you are in denial, surely?

if so you are being done a favour. The euro project is doomed. The money has run out, game over.

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  • 338 Brexit, House prices and Summer 2020

    1. 1. Including the effects Brexit, where do you think average UK house prices will be relative to now in June 2020?


      • down 5% +
      • down 2.5%
      • Even
      • up 2.5%
      • up 5%



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