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wonderpup

I Think Ayn Rand Was A Misanthropic Sociopath

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“When you see that trading is done, not by consent, but by compulsion-when you see that in order to produce, you need to obtain permission from men who produce nothing-when you see that money is flowing to those who deal, not in goods, but in favors-when you see that men get richer by graft and by pull than by work, and your laws don’t protect you against them, but protect them against you-when you see corruption being rewarded and honesty becoming a self-sacrifice-you may know that your society is doomed”. – Ayn Rand

The best summation I have read to describe where we are right now- how ironic that those who brought us here quote this same woman as an inspiration.

Ironic too that Rand could not see that in her society of rational egoist's the corruption she describes would not only be inevitable but would be entirely logical.

We have lived the Randian dream of self interest conquers all and woken up in the nightmare she feared most-a rampant oligarchy that steals from those who produce and gives to those who do not.

Edited by wonderpup

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The best summation I have read to describe where we are right now- how ironic that those who brought us here quote this same woman as an inspiration.

Ironic too that Rand could not see that in her society of rational egoist's the corruption she describes would not only be inevitable but would be entirely logical.

We have lived the Randian dream of self interest conquers all and woken up in the nightmare she feared most-a rampant oligarchy that steals from those who produce and gives to those who do not.

I did look for an ironic clapping video in response but got really bored after unsucessfully trying to find one after about 0.15 seconds .....

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The politicians co-opted the bits they wanted, but were careful to forget the bits they didn't.

I've not read much of Ayn Rand's work, but AFAIK, she never supported statism*. Statism, leads to the problems she quoted above.

* EDIT: Although, I understand she was close to being a minarchist/constitutionalist.

Edited by Traktion

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I did look for an ironic clapping video in response but got really bored after unsucessfully trying to find one after about 0.15 seconds .....

You don't find it ironic that the people who cite Rand as an inspirational figure turned out to be the embodiment of all she hated most?

I think it's funny.

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You don't find it ironic that the people who cite Rand as an inspirational figure turned out to be the embodiment of all she hated most?

I think it's funny.

i see what you mean; I flirted with rand (so to speak) for about 6 months before I realised (had it pointed out to me) that her 'heroic industrialists' simply do not exist, and therefore she missed the point of a competitive economy

the best thing she did was point out the intrinsic failings of socialism

the worst thing she did was make capitalism into a cult

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You don't find it ironic that the people who cite Rand as an inspirational figure turned out to be the embodiment of all she hated most?

I think it's funny.

See:

Casual racists who like watching Alf Garnett

Ronald Reagan's use of the Springsteen track 'Born In The USA' during presidential election campaigns

The Thatcher 'there's no such thing as society' quote

Modern usage of 'Keynesian economic solutions'

In fact there's endless examples of people either consciously or unconsciously misinterpreting other people's ideas to suit their own world view.

I think Rand used industrialists when really she meant entrepreneurs - I certainly don't think she imagined private equity/hedge fund spivs or BTLers.

Edited by Soon Not a Chain Retailer

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You don't find it ironic that the people who cite Rand as an inspirational figure turned out to be the embodiment of all she hated most?

I think it's funny.

I think some finally saw the light. Friedman supported the fed back in the 80s, but called for its dismantling shortly before his death.

If she still had her marbles, i think even Thatcher would be appalled at the socialist mess she helped engineer.

,

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I think Ayn Rand is an important philosopher who every person who is going to be a member of the elite one day should read. Where you would get into trouble is if she was the only philosopher you ever read and you tried to set up the society only thinking from her perspective.

In our age where even the most free market western nation, the US is spending 46% of its GDP on government.. Her writing is especially important.

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For many years, Greenspan was a mentor and key advisor to Gordon Brown, and Rand was a mentor and key advisor to Alan Greenspan.

Brown blindly followed his mentor in the super low interest rate enviroment, created by Greenspan, and repeated the same mistake Greenspan made thinking that financial firms would regulate themselves.......

Greenspan is more responsible than any other individual on the planet for inflating the bubble.

Edited by Milton

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The best summation I have read to describe where we are right now- how ironic that those who brought us here quote this same woman as an inspiration.

Ironic too that Rand could not see that in her society of rational egoist's the corruption she describes would not only be inevitable but would be entirely logical.

We have lived the Randian dream of self interest conquers all and woken up in the nightmare she feared most-a rampant oligarchy that steals from those who produce and gives to those who do not.

Rand was a sort of minarchist, afaik.

Hence the mess we are in. If it's self interest and free trade as guiding virtues, then be consistent with it - and that means no state at all. The corruption and mess we are in are entirely logical if you have a state.Right now more or less everyone is struggling and arguing over use of the state to solve their own personal business woes. Others have likened it to the period before the reformation, where everyone was trying to use the state to impose religious views accross the board.

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Rand was a sort of minarchist, afaik.

Hence the mess we are in. If it's self interest and free trade as guiding virtues, then be consistent with it - and that means no state at all. The corruption and mess we are in are entirely logical if you have a state.

[Whilst i like the idea of no state at all, I find it difficult to picture it. Its so alien, you have to begin searching the natural world for an analogous model]

Would an economic system run by markets, with or without a political system run by governments, always lead to the excesses of capitalism, and an economy that can never be self sustaining?

Others have likened it to the period before the reformation, where everyone was trying to use the state to impose religious views accross the board.

The great recession we are in now, is the third crisis Capitalism has faced. The first was the depression of the 1930s and the second was the stagflation of the 1970s. We've learned to distrust both the markets and the government. So what will Capitalism evolve into now? Whats next?

Edited by Milton

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The best summation I have read to describe where we are right now- how ironic that those who brought us here quote this same woman as an inspiration.

Ironic too that Rand could not see that in her society of rational egoist's the corruption she describes would not only be inevitable but would be entirely logical.

We have lived the Randian dream of self interest conquers all and woken up in the nightmare she feared most-a rampant oligarchy that steals from those who produce and gives to those who do not.

The quote shows a true romantic, deeply disappointed, indeed hurt, that real life doesn't match up to the ideal; which ideal ever does?

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If she still had her marbles, i think even Thatcher would be appalled at the socialist mess she helped engineer.

,

A nice idea but it suggests that you think that Thatcher was sane at some point.....can't agree.

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[Whilst i like the idea of no state at all, I find it difficult to picture it. Its so alien, you have to begin searching the natural world for an analogous model]

It's not at all difficult to picture. Somalia or just about any country in the hours after the downfall of the ancien regime provide clear examples.

Unless you are living in a log cabin high in the mountains somewhere, a state is generally required to 'hold the ring'. The sensible question is not 'should there be a state?' but rather 'what should be the limits of the state?' and 'How do we constrain the state?' My gut feeling is the founding fathers of the US got it about right, but that, as is the way, the beast has grown insidiously ever since.

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People are the problem. That is about it. The rest is just noise. Whilst we inhabit this planet we will always be arseholes. The end.

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People are the problem. That is about it. The rest is just noise. Whilst we inhabit this planet we will always be arseholes. The end.

no the problem is humans with ginger bonces , always has been , always will be

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If she still had her marbles, i think even Thatcher would be appalled at the socialist mess she helped engineer.

Perhaps.

She could see the consequences emerging before she even left Downing Street. The consequences continued to multiply in the yeards immediately following when she still had her marbles. Yes they got even worse once she'd lost it. OTOH since she said nothing when she could clearly see it beginning, I'm less convinced she'd be appalled now, or at least only selectively appalled.

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People are the problem. That is about it. The rest is just noise. Whilst we inhabit this planet we will always be arseholes. The end.

couldnt eugenics solve this?

And wasnt being an arsehole in rands view the pinnacle of human achievement?

Altruism being the most evil act imaginable and all that?

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You don't find it ironic that the people who cite Rand as an inspirational figure turned out to be the embodiment of all she hated most?

I think it's funny.

You mean people like Alan Greenspan?

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no the problem is humans with ginger bonces , always has been , always will be

Gingers rule. :D

couldnt eugenics solve this?

And wasnt being an arsehole in rands view the pinnacle of human achievement?

Altruism being the most evil act imaginable and all that?

Nope. Because people would have to be in charge. And people are generally dicks.

No idea about the rest of Rands views.

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[Whilst i like the idea of no state at all, I find it difficult to picture it. Its so alien, you have to begin searching the natural world for an analogous model]

Would an economic system run by markets, with or without a political system run by governments, always lead to the excesses of capitalism, and an economy that can never be self sustaining?

The great recession we are in now, is the third crisis Capitalism has faced. The first was the depression of the 1930s and the second was the stagflation of the 1970s. We've learned to distrust both the markets and the government. So what will Capitalism evolve into now? Whats next?

you seem to have missed the rolling depressions in late 19th century GB, that inspired Karl Marx

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  • 338 Brexit, House prices and Summer 2020

    1. 1. Including the effects Brexit, where do you think average UK house prices will be relative to now in June 2020?


      • down 5% +
      • down 2.5%
      • Even
      • up 2.5%
      • up 5%



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