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Median Male Worker Makes Less Now Than 43 Years Ago

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Do you seriously think I and my peers are prepared to pay off their debt?

Well, they are doing so now. Again provide evidence to the contrary. Right now people are propping up PAYE pensions and paying taxes that are paying off the interest on the debt. They won't ever clear it as it's nearly impossible but they may well labour under it's shadow for decades.

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Well, they are doing so now. Again provide evidence to the contrary. Right now people are propping up PAYE pensions and paying taxes that are paying off the interest on the debt. They won't ever clear it as it's nearly impossible but they may well labour under it's shadow for decades.

Inflation is reducing their debt and eroding their spending power. Their debts are quite likely secured against the deeds to their houses.

The debt can be cleared in an instant.

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I'm not really interested in the "quality of life" argument. E.g. colour TVs, computers blah blah blah. I'd sooner have a comfortable 70s house, a secure 9 to 5 job (not with mountains of unpaid overtime), a Ford Cortina, an occasional walk in the park and a happy family, than a load of Chinese tat and foreign holidays.

I wonder if you could have all that on the equivalent of your current income. Perhaps instead of walking in the park you would find you need to wash the dishes by hand (no dishwasher), cook (no ready meals or probably even cheap convenient tinned/frozen veg), spend time shopping (no home deliveries, or enormous out-of-town shopping centers you only need to go to once a week on your way from work), hanging your clothes outside (no tumble drier), or fixing your car (they are much more reliable nowadays). BTW, if you have children then you can probably have all the above for free on benefits, and plenty of spare time on top.

The thing is, no matter how frugal I am, I can only aspire to a 40m² one bed flat on my salary alone. A salary, which incidentally I don't think is too bad. Add to that I have bugger all job security.

Why measure everything in the size of a flat you can afford? There are cheap places in the UK you could move to if you don't care about Chinese tat and driving a crap car. Anyway, if your salary really is not too bad then this state of things cannot last forever. And as I sad above, the reason your parents had it better might just be something to do with the amount of unpaid debt that their generation leaves behind instead of more traditional forms of inheritance.

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Inflation is reducing their debt and eroding their spending power. Their debts are quite likely secured against the deeds to their houses.

The debt can be cleared in an instant.

Ok - but outside of your fantasy world - in the real world - it isn't being cleared and we are paying for it.

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Do you seriously think I and my peers are prepared to pay off their debt?

In that case your only realistic choice is to emigrate as no-one is going to ask you. Useful hint: it might be best not to go to Greece.

(BTW, it's not just the debt on the books. They still need some decades of NHS care that the young also need to pay for).

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+1

look at the standard of living and calculate what it now costs to live like someone did in 1968.

you would live in a smaller house, probably not have a car, or consumer durables, let alone electronics.

Families in poverty now have a better standard of life than the average family did in 1971.

Ask someone who was alive then what it was like and the answer will not be "better than now"

I was alive in 1971. I disagree. Tat and consumer junk are cheaper now, but the basic standard of living, including time etc. was significantly better - at least in Australia, and for the first 10 years of my life I grew up in a single parent household, yet had steak for dinner 5 nights out of 7.

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I wonder if you could have all that on the equivalent of your current income. Perhaps instead of walking in the park you would find you need to wash the dishes by hand (no dishwasher), cook (no ready meals or probably even cheap convenient tinned/frozen veg), spend time shopping (no home deliveries, or enormous out-of-town shopping centers you only need to go to once a week on your way from work), hanging your clothes outside (no tumble drier), or fixing your car (they are much more reliable nowadays). BTW, if you have children then you can probably have all the above for free on benefits, and plenty of spare time on top.

If you are a couple and only one of you has to work, these things certainly don't take the same amount of time as a full time job. Funnily enough I don't want benefits, I want to be able to afford a reasonable house on my reasonable wage. Not require two wages on life-sapping jobs in order to subsist.

I can't really accept tinned/frozen veg, dishwashers and ready meals as justification for high house prices. I think most people would happily do that trade!

Why measure everything in the size of a flat you can afford? There are cheap places in the UK you could move to if you don't care about Chinese tat and driving a crap car. Anyway, if your salary really is not too bad then this state of things cannot last forever. And as I sad above, the reason your parents had it better might just be something to do with the amount of unpaid debt that their generation leaves behind instead of more traditional forms of inheritance.

Cheap places in the UK are cheap for a reason. Are there really any places in the UK where prices are affordable relative to average local salaries? Places where you can raise a family without fearing for their life?

I dont expect to inherit much at all, as both my parents will need care (one does already) and they will pretty much wipe out their savings and assets. They never borrowed - only on a mortgage (personal loans were considered the "never never"). This was affordable on a single average salary.

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I can't really accept tinned/frozen veg, dishwashers and ready meals as justification for high house prices. I think most people would happily do that trade!

I said nothing about house prices being in any way justified. I just pointed out I would rather live now than 40 years ago given broadly the same real salary. In fact, I might well prefer to do it on the same *nominal* salary. I would be seriously minted on my current money in the 70s, but I'd just need to start losing sight, break a leg, or suffer any of a multitude of common complaints before I realised just what an enormous consumer surplus modern healthcare leaves. Though I suspect I would sober up well before then, perhaps on paying for the first international phone call or on sending the first email (that I had to type on a really clunky computer without a delete button, then wait for a week before the reply came back). Oh, and I wouldn't be able to work for a company based on a different continent, so my choice of jobs would be limited to driving distance. Still, each to their own.

Cheap places in the UK are cheap for a reason. Are there really any places in the UK where prices are affordable relative to average local salaries? Places where you can raise a family without fearing for their life?

Just take the time saving that mod-cons provide, and use it to commute?

I dont expect to inherit much at all, as both my parents will need care (one does already) and they will pretty much wipe out their savings and assets. They never borrowed - only on a mortgage (personal loans were considered the "never never"). This was affordable on a single average salary.

I meant the national debt that paid for their healthcare and everything else they got from the state. There is a reason why the generation coming after them cannot have the same pensions and other benefits, which is basically that they need to pay for both their own and the previous generation's.

Yes, on an average (40m2 sounds about that range) salary you only have average misery to look forward to, but it will still be preferable to living 40 years ago. I did not say we did not get screwed by an inept ruling class, but even they cannot mess things up sufficiently to negate the benefit of human ingenuity.

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Yes, on an average (40m2 sounds about that range) salary you only have average misery to look forward to, but it will still be preferable to living 40 years ago. I did not say we did not get screwed by an inept ruling class, but even they cannot mess things up sufficiently to negate the benefit of human ingenuity.

I think the saddest part about this debate, which could roughly be summarised as "have 40 years of technological improvement more than compensated for the fact that it is no longer possible for the average family to live on one full time wage in an average house?", is that we could probably have both 1970s house price ratios and 2011 gadgetry were it not for our broken monetary and political systems.

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the decline in poverty has been entirely down to the build up of said unsustainable debt.The last ten years was an illusion.get over it.

+1

a bogus boom, followed by a very real bust.

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I think the saddest part about this debate, which could roughly be summarised as "have 40 years of technological improvement more than compensated for the fact that it is no longer possible for the average family to live on one full time wage in an average house?", is that we could probably have both 1970s house price ratios and 2011 gadgetry were it not for our broken monetary and political systems.

hammernail.jpg

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The USA and UK are completly differant,

the USA was a world superpower and the UK destitute and the sick man of Europe. Since then the US has collapse and the UK recovered.The UK worker is in a far, far better economic state than they were in the early 1970's. US workers are poorer, without a doubt.

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Just take the time saving that mod-cons provide, and use it to commute?

Right.... You've seen the price of train travel recently? And the price of fuel? Seriously... to move far enough away where houses are cheaper from a place where decent jobs are avaialble I think you'd have to commute for 4 hours a day. By all means suggest somewher to me though.

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Right.... You've seen the price of train travel recently? And the price of fuel? Seriously... to move far enough away where houses are cheaper from a place where decent jobs are avaialble I think you'd have to commute for 4 hours a day. By all means suggest somewher to me though.

When you can live in a nicer, less expensive place that offers you and your family a better quality of life you don't need a high powered, stressful, long hours highly paid job to survive the short-term. ;)

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The things that are worse now are things that are not as easy to see as cars and televisions: job security or the ease of getting a new job, the age at which the average worker can get a house large enough to have a family in, whether it is necessary to have two working adults in the house. It could be argued (along the lines of Maslow's hierarchy of needs) that these things are actually more fundamental to human comfort and happiness than consumer electronics and foreign holidays.

AND...you didnt need a degree to be a van driver.

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the whole "two wages instead of one" thing is complete sh1t as well.

look at the proportions of adults working, it hasn't changed since the 70s. more women work and fewer men work but overall about 70-75% of working age adults are in employment, same as always (recessions etc do cause dips of course)

The US and the UK are totally different, but the average worker is still better off in both places now than they were in the early 70s.

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the whole "two wages instead of one" thing is complete sh1t as well.

look at the proportions of adults working, it hasn't changed since the 70s. more women work and fewer men work but overall about 70-75% of working age adults are in employment, same as always (recessions etc do cause dips of course)

The US and the UK are totally different, but the average worker is still better off in both places now than they were in the early 70s.

It's about 67.3% isn't it?

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the whole "two wages instead of one" thing is complete sh1t as well.

look at the proportions of adults working, it hasn't changed since the 70s. more women work and fewer men work but overall about 70-75% of working age adults are in employment, same as always (recessions etc do cause dips of course)

The US and the UK are totally different, but the average worker is still better off in both places now than they were in the early 70s.

". In 1976, 47% of women 20 to 64 years of age who were either married or living in a common-law relationship participated in the labour market. By 2009, the corresponding percentage had risen to 76%."

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To fix the broken society we need to get both parents working full time to pay off the massive debt outstanding on the cramped shoebox they and their kids are living in while at the same time both parents need to be actively engaged in raising their children in order to turn out obedient debt slaves for the next generation of city c*nts to fleece- rinse and repeat.

When asked how parents could simultaneously work full time in demanding jobs and be an active positive role model in their children's lives the prime minister replied " How the f*uck shoud I know?- it's just a f*ucking sound bite for christ's sake- f*uck off.'

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the whole "two wages instead of one" thing is complete sh1t as well.

look at the proportions of adults working, it hasn't changed since the 70s. more women work and fewer men work but overall about 70-75% of working age adults are in employment, same as always (recessions etc do cause dips of course)

The US and the UK are totally different, but the average worker is still better off in both places now than they were in the early 70s.

Complete sh1t No your understanding of it is .

There might be the same amount of people working but many average households need two working to keep their heads above water . The men that have been dissplaced are now heading the familys in poverty that you say have a better standard of living than the average did in 1971.

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Right.... You've seen the price of train travel recently? And the price of fuel?

The point was that housing does get cheaper with commuting distance from places that have well paying jobs, even allowing for the costs.

I am sure no-one would like to spend a long time commuting. My point was simply that given the choice between doing that and not having the benefit of the past 40 years of R&D effort, I would instantly choose the former.

BTW, there is an enormous amount of traffic around, and car parking is as expensive as ever. Clearly, cars are still cheap to run at least in the sense that many more people can now afford to do so than could in the 70s.

Edited by MongerOfDoom

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  • 294 Brexit, House prices and Summer 2020

    1. 1. Including the effects Brexit, where do you think average UK house prices will be relative to now in June 2020?


      • down 5% +
      • down 2.5%
      • Even
      • up 2.5%
      • up 5%



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