Say Goodbye To The West

[BillyBodger]

This is the true begining of the global market/economy, the cheap labour countries with mass work forces are going to take over.

Forget about UK average wages of £25,000 aprox, that's going to come down dramatically, the writing's on the wall.

Before the global market becomes balanced and equal there's going to be massive storms. We the west are going to be the big losers this time.

The above is only my personal opinion so feel free to express your own.

[Mushroom]

We have covered this before, although it is worthy of continued debate.

Broadly speaking your view is mine.

Others here might beg to differ.

However your tone is rather confrontational.

I'm a bit tempted to declare that Awooga word.

Should I?

[gone west]

Go on. You know you want to.

[right_freds_dead]

they will rise to our level eventually. then we compete. this is how it has been with many european counties on the past. i dont think it will kill us off. one thing that helps are the huge logistics and transport costs from china and the other middle world countries. they wont stay on 11p wages forever.

though now is not good time to sink your savings into a huge overpriced uk house.

[Nelly]

On the other hand the east relies far too heavily on the west buying their products, and if they got too cocky all the western governments will impose a load of trade sanctions, unless they do as their told. In fact that already happening.

[Card]

http://www.greatreality.com/DebtMain.htm Edited October 6, 2005 by Card

[BandWagon]

There is nothing new about globalisation.

Humans have been trading for thousands of years, and trading internationally for hundreds.

Trading is not a zero sum game, ie all the parties involved benefit.

These arguments were dissected 250 years ago by Adam Smith.

Sure the value of our currency may fall, we may need to endure higher interest rates to reduce inflation, but overall its a win-win game.

Along with the current HPC, this is another reason to be very optimistic about the future.

Edited October 6, 2005 by BandWagon

[BillyBodger]

We have covered this before, although it is worthy of continued debate.

Broadly speaking your view is mine.

Others here might beg to differ.

However your tone is rather confrontational.

I'm a bit tempted to declare that Awooga word.

Should I?

Mushroom,

Sorry about the confrontational tone of this post it was only meant to set the ball rolling for some feedback negative or positive. I'm not bothered either way.

With hindsight the topic is confronting and the body of the text is sparse. I was hoping some replying posters would add to this.

[BillyBodger]

There is nothing new about globalisation.

Humans have been trading for thousands of years, and trading internationally for hundreds.

Trading is not a zero sum game, ie all the parties involved benefit.

These arguments were dissected 250 years ago by Adam Smith.

Sure the value of our currency may fall, we may need to endure higher interest rates to reduce inflation, but overall its a win-win game.

Along with the current HPC, this is another reason to be very optimistic about the future.

BandWagon,

I agree with your assumption that its a win game but doesn't this apply to the medium to long term. In the short term which could last a decade or more a lot of jobs and wealth could be lost here.

Eventually it will balance out in perfect capitalist centered world, that's just like water always finding it's natural lowest point.

[the_duke_of_hazzard]

they will rise to our level eventually. then we compete. this is how it has been with many european counties on the past. i dont think it will kill us off. one thing that helps are the huge logistics and transport costs from china and the other middle world countries. they wont stay on 11p wages forever.

though now is not good time to sink your savings into a huge overpriced uk house.

Wages in these places (eg Bangalore) double every 18 months.

In the 80s booms there was a vogue for outsourcing - though not necessarily abroad (it may have been Europe then) - followed by a vague for in-housing when the costs were realised and the recession came, which made the workforce more competitive.

We're a bit spoiled at the moment. That will change when we tighten our belts a bit. Unless GB p1sses it up the public sector wall.

All hail Ken Clark!

edit: Clark(e)

Edited October 6, 2005 by the_duke_of_hazzard

[George]

they will rise to our level eventually. then we compete. this is how it has been with many european counties on the past. i dont think it will kill us off. one thing that helps are the huge logistics and transport costs from china and the other middle world countries. they wont stay on 11p wages forever.

No. 1 billion plus people all willing to work for a ball of rice. Plus don't forget how much more they spend on R &D (minturisation etc). In England we spend it on R & B and speed garage and things like that.

Edited October 6, 2005 by George

[muppet1]

This is the true begining of the global market/economy, the cheap labour countries with mass work forces are going to take over.

Forget about UK average wages of £25,000 aprox, that's going to come down dramatically, the writing's on the wall.

Before the global market becomes balanced and equal there's going to be massive storms. We the west are going to be the big losers this time.

The above is only my personal opinion so feel free to express your own.

You need seemingly endless amounts of cheap oil to ship goods/people around in a Global Economy.

What's going to happen when it runs out??

[boom_and_bust]

This is the true begining of the global market/economy, the cheap labour countries with mass work forces are going to take over.

Forget about UK average wages of £25,000 aprox, that's going to come down dramatically, the writing's on the wall.

Before the global market becomes balanced and equal there's going to be massive storms. We the west are going to be the big losers this time.

The above is only my personal opinion so feel free to express your own.

Hi,

I think western nations will evolve. There may be a little pain but ultimately, it will move on. Renewable energy is here already, it's just the economics of convenience at the moment. The arrival of hybrid, hydrogen and cell fuel engines is well developed now in Germany and America. The french are making breakthroughs every year in their hydrogen fusion laboratory plant. Hydrogen powered aircraft are off the drawing board. We are getting more effecient at using petrol and gas, hydro and tidal power projects are working around the world. I think the transition will be in place, it may not be orderly but I follow these things closely. Maybe not Blighty, but the US, Canada, Germany and France have their act together on this, on high technology and renewables. They are in place. The transition may be bumpy but not apocalyptic, I think. Still, what do I know. I am sure there will still be HPC 20, 50, 100 years from now. That is one certainty.

[Gwailo]

This is the true begining of the global market/economy, the cheap labour countries with mass work forces are going to take over.

Forget about UK average wages of £25,000 aprox, that's going to come down dramatically, the writing's on the wall.

Before the global market becomes balanced and equal there's going to be massive storms. We the west are going to be the big losers this time.

The above is only my personal opinion so feel free to express your own.

The Writing is On the Wall........and its in Chinese.........and there is No Translation!

Get used to it!

[Michael]

The key difference between the emergence of China as an economic power and that of Japan and south korea is the size of the population.........In Japan and South Korea wages went up very quickly, eroding their labour cost advantage.................yet in China even after 2 decades of rapid growth manual workers' wages are still only $100 (£60) a month................with hundreds of millions of peasants still waiting to come into the industrial zones to escape a subsistence existence on the land...........

[BoredTrainBuilder]

The french are making breakthroughs every year in their hydrogen fusion laboratory plant.

That's amazing because it's not built yet. And it will be the world's plant which will be located in France.

Unless GB p1sses it up the public sector wall.

Like this you mean . . .

Thousands of hospital porters, cleaners and other contract staff will get big pay increases as a result of a deal brokered yesterday by Patricia Hewitt, the health secretary, to bring an end to the two-tier workforce in the NHS in England.

She said about 35,000 employees of health service contractors will get pay increases worth up to 25%. From April, their basic minimum will go up to £5.88 an hour, matching the terms available to staff directly employed by the NHS.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk_news/story/0,...1586643,00.html

Ah, that's better.

[Card]

Hi,

I think western nations will evolve. There may be a little pain but ultimately, it will move on. Renewable energy is here already, it's just the economics of convenience at the moment. The arrival of hybrid, hydrogen and cell fuel engines is well developed now in Germany and America. The french are making breakthroughs every year in their hydrogen fusion laboratory plant. Hydrogen powered aircraft are off the drawing board. We are getting more effecient at using petrol and gas, hydro and tidal power projects are working around the world. I think the transition will be in place, it may not be orderly but I follow these things closely. Maybe not Blighty, but the US, Canada, Germany and France have their act together on this, on high technology and renewables. They are in place. The transition may be bumpy but not apocalyptic, I think. Still, what do I know. I am sure there will still be HPC 20, 50, 100 years from now. That is one certainty.

HYDROGEN

Do you know anything about Hydrogen / Fuel Cells ?

Hydrogen is an energy SINK not an energy SOURCE. It is a possible replacement for liquid fuels BUT has to be prepared using electrolysis. The process of creating the finished hydrogen fuel requires more energy input than you get output.

(Has anyone mentioned the INCREDIBLE cost of cells?)

It's fine but requires an energy source to begin with. It is not an alternative, it is just a more effiecient finished fuel than electricity itself for transport.

FUSION

ITER (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ITER) will begin this year in France... It will be 2015 before experiments will begin. It won't produce ANY commercial energy.

It is a bloody long way off yet I'm afraid.

ALTERNATIVES

We currently generate about a sixth of one percent of our global energy using the whole basket of real alternative sources. The majority of this is wind power.

Edited October 7, 2005 by Card