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Stop Dithering. Only Full Integration Can Save Europe

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http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2011/sep/07/only-full-integration-save-europe

After many months of muddling through – but not getting at the systemic roots of the economic, fiscal and financial crisis – Europe is at the tipping point. If it continues any longer with the status quo of dithering instead of decisiveness, the eurozone will break up and its national economies will weaken. Only by moving forward towards full integration – now – can Europe save itself.

So far, as the former Spanish prime minister Felipe González has put it, Europe's leaders have been "acting as fireman", putting out one fire after the next but not putting in place a system to prevent the next outbreak. Extend and pretend; pray and delay; kick the can down the street. These are not real and stable solutions but futile Band-Aids. Along with persistent partisan gridlock and the clear slippage of the recovery in the US, Europe's crisis of governance is dragging down the entire global economy. Stall speed is yielding to contraction and double-dip risk.

It is by now clear that short-term financial stability in Europe can only be purchased with a credible long-term strategy to complete a political and fiscal union. The incoming head of the European Central Bank, Mario Draghi, has rightly argued that Europe urgently needs to "make a quantum step up in economic and political integration". How do we get from here to there?

Clear steps, some outlined this week by the Council for the Future of Europe, include the following.

In the short-term further market contagion needs to be avoided. Rapid implementation of July's decision to allow the established stabilisation mechanisms to intervene is of critical importance. In addition, the size of these mechanisms must be expanded to avoid a self-fulfilling run on Italian and Spanish debt while their economic policies take time to restore market confidence. Thus, by 2012 – not 2013, as previously planned – these mechanisms should be transformed into a permanent, fully fledged European fund.

More NWO, one world government, one central bank, we have to chip your children like wayward pets for your own goodetc etc at the link.

In the future it will seem completely incredible you could advocate the slavery of several billion people just to keep a deranged idea alive in this way.

With a bit of luck, of course.

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In the future it will seem completely incredible you could advocate the slavery of several billion people just to keep a deranged idea alive in this way.

With a bit of luck, of course.

Come on, it's only about 360 million.. :P

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http://www.guardian....ion-save-europe

In the future it will seem completely incredible you could advocate the slavery of several billion people just to keep a deranged idea alive in this way.

With a bit of luck, of course.

It's quite incredible isn't it. It's a bit like "QE1 and QE2 didn't work. It'll work if we make QE3 much bigger". Quite a bizarre logic to it all. And I say this as someone who was very much pro-Euro but now stand corrected.

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Come on, it's only about 360 million.. :P

For now. :P

The article is still completely incredible. Can you imagine if they just published "We want your sons and daughters to be slaves so that madcap ideas about finance don't die on their **** and you are evil if you oppose us." Which is basically what has been written if you remove all the jargon.

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despite being raised in Italy he doesn't seem to get European politics - he is proposing the stage be set for a European civil war, smashing

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I'm not sure why they bothered piddling around in the first place.

If you are going to have a united Europe, have a united Europe. If not, then just disband the whole thing and go back to individual countries with individual currencies.

When you do things by half measures they usually end up going wrong. All the fear mongering about slipping into a totalitarian world government.. the US may have its own problems, but its hardly the worst place in the world to live. I don't see why a united Europe would necessarily be any worse. It depends on what the people will vote for and put up with.

Edited by libspero

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Has Roubini changed his tune? He used to be one of the 'good guys,' talking sense about the mess and its causes once upon a time. Now it's much more of the same and more control (herding cats).

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Has Roubini changed his tune? He used to be one of the 'good guys,' talking sense about the mess and its causes once upon a time. Now it's much more of the same and more control (herding cats).

I think Roubini has many angles depending on who he's talking too.

Integration won't save the Euro there is too much debt.

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They won't stop until every child is born into complete debt bondage, taxes are near suffocation point and rules and regulations stipulate nearly every aspect of your life. Ofc, by that time, the corporates and the bankers will have removed what little element of democracy which remains.

What's not to like?! :lol:

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I'm not sure why they bothered piddling around in the first place.

Nobody wants it except the elite. So they frog boil to get their way.

But still nobody wants it.

If you are going to have a united Europe, have a united Europe. If not, then just disband the whole thing and go back to individual countries with individual currencies.

When you do things by half measures they usually end up going wrong. All the fear mongering about slipping into a totalitarian world government.. the US may have its own problems, but its hardly the worst place in the world to live. I don't see why a united Europe would necessarily be any worse. It depends on what the people will vote for and put up with.

The US?

What on earth are you talking about......

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The US?

What on earth are you talking about......

The united American states.

How is a united Europe worse than a united America?

My point is that when the US is not a particularly terrible place on the whole world scale.. why should a united Europe be any different?

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Merkin: "If the euro collapses, so does Europe. Germany's future is inseparable from Europe's future."

They're going to kick Greece out in the same way a debt collector swings his baseball bat to keep his other customers in line, then force through closer fiscal union on the drip.

You can rail against it as much as you wish (and I would recommend you do), but that's what's happening.

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The united American states.

How is a united Europe worse than a united America?

My point is that when the US is not a particularly terrible place on the whole world scale.. why should a united Europe be any different?

Ah, you are ignoring direction and speed.

And not asking

"Compared to what else?"

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They're going to kick Greece out in the same way a debt collector swings his baseball bat to keep his other customers in line, then force through closer fiscal union on the drip.

You can rail against it as much as you wish (and I would recommend you do), but that's what's happening.

I don't think they can.

They have to integrate greece AND break it's legs for this to work. Kneecap finance has to get paid, not just shatter kneecaps.

A painful "out" will be chosen if it's on the table. The choice has to be presented as payment and knees or payment and broken knees to work.

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They're going to kick Greece out in the same way a debt collector swings his baseball bat to keep his other customers in line, then force through closer fiscal union on the drip.

You can rail against it as much as you wish (and I would recommend you do), but that's what's happening.

Surely the Greeks would be happy to get out and fold on their debts?

Doesn't sound like much of a punishment. The hard route would be for them to have to cough up while still in the EU, or for Merkel to try to give hand-outs from Germany to cover their debts..

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For now. :P

The article is still completely incredible. Can you imagine if they just published "We want your sons and daughters to be slaves so that madcap ideas about finance don't die on their **** and you are evil if you oppose us." Which is basically what has been written if you remove all the jargon.

Yes but it's always been clear that a fiscal union with common tax and spend policies, and also for that matter consistency in the application of all the single market policies, was a requirement of a proper single currency. Most people agree that the Euro is a political and not an economic construct; it was, in my view, a nonsense from day one.

The problem is that many do not want a fiscal union and it is not at all clear that this would be introduced by most Eurozone countries and I think the dreaded democratic deficit is beginning to rear it's head; and I'm not at all sure the bureaucratic elites are going to be able to finesse this around as they have invariably done before.

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Pick some (any) counties without central governance.

Show me one you'd like to live in..

Again, false comparative.

Would you prefer to live in the US with the freedoms of the 1980's or the modern one where you get your nuts groped for catching a long distance bus?

You are still ignoring speed and direction.

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Yes but it's always been clear that a fiscal union with common tax and spend policies, and also for that matter consistency in the application of all the single market policies, was a requirement of a proper single currency. Most people agree that the Euro is a political and not an economic construct; it was, in my view, a nonsense from day one.

The problem is that many do not want a fiscal union and it is not at all clear that this would be introduced by most Eurozone countries and I think the dreaded democratic deficit is beginning to rear it's head; and I'm not at all sure the bureaucratic elites are going to be able to finesse this around as they have invariably done before.

They obviously want it very badly, and I agree with the lack of ability to finesse the issue.

The only question then, is when do we see troops on the streets? Because they'll obviously do literally anything to make the EUSSR happen.

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Again, false comparative.

Would you prefer to live in the US with the freedoms of the 1980's or the modern one where you get your nuts groped for catching a long distance bus?

You are still ignoring speed and direction.

Ok then, I think we agree.

There is no specific issue with having a united Europe, simply in how we choose to run it.

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Ok then, I think we agree.

There is no specific issue with having a united Europe, simply in how we choose to run it.

I'm glad we agree that any united europe will become more and more totalitarian just as the US has.

Not too sure why you want to live under totalitarian regimes tho, can you give me a clue?

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I'm glad we agree that any united europe will become more and more totalitarian just as the US has.

Ok, then if we return to the idea that centralised governance necessarily results in a totalitarian state (whether large, small or other).. I return you to post No.19.

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  • 276 Brexit, House prices and Summer 2020

    1. 1. Including the effects Brexit, where do you think average UK house prices will be relative to now in June 2020?


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