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Bbc Panaroma Monday 5Th Sep - Nhs Cost Cutting

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http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b014gr72/Panorama_Gerry_and_the_GPs/

A few interesting points:

(1) We spend £100bn on NHS - why can't we have a few more CT scanner (get rid of a senior pen pusher and that is perfectly affordable)

(2) Procedures are ordered because it boost trust income (8min 30s) because the inter NHS payment system encourages activities

(3) Now ex Goldman Sach guys is in the business of private hospitals (16.46) and he said NHS cost £37bn 13 years ago, now £100bn.

(4) NHS needs managers who can manage the to achieve efficiencies

(5) With ageing population, NHS will be unsustainable and unaffordable (20.00)

(6) Two PCT merged and it cost £1bn (!) in redundancy payment

(7) Someone needs to make the tough and unpopular decision at center of NHS

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The management capture of the NHS has been shocking to witness in person. Whole swathes of individuals and private corporations have been creaming off huge amounts of money from the taxpayer. Most of the massive increase in NHS funding over the last ten years has gone not to frontline services but into the pockets of greedy capitalists

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The management capture of the NHS has been shocking to witness in person. Whole swathes of individuals and private corporations have been creaming off huge amounts of money from the taxpayer. Most of the massive increase in NHS funding over the last ten years has gone not to frontline services but into the pockets of greedy capitalists

:ph34r: pays the bills though... if people weren't cool with this they would vote against it.

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the f*ckwits highly paid (and high redundancy payments) return their money to private sector via purchases of Ipads for their kids and BTL for their vanity, the wealth gets back, pretty quickly, to everyone else, they are unutterably stupid in my experience

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The management capture of the NHS has been shocking to witness in person. Whole swathes of individuals and private corporations have been creaming off huge amounts of money from the taxpayer. Most of the massive increase in NHS funding over the last ten years has gone not to frontline services but into the pockets of greedy capitalists

ffs - greedy capitalists

everyone's greedy, socialists aren't 'pure' by any stretch

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I'm starting to think we ought to be a lot more China, with more of a command system accompanied by death by hanging for incompetent / corrupt /thieving managers and officials. The snag is they seem to have problems too, but just cover it all up. Here the thieving, ineptitude is barely concealed yet still carries on. We even reward it.

Edited by John Steed

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The NHS is a ponzi scheme like the rest of the UK.

The people at the top have gotten all the benefits and high pay and the people at the bottom are being struck off.

I've become very disillusioned and sometimes think about dropping out but I have dedicated a large chunk of my life to my training and love my job (but hate the NHS).

Things are much worse in england than in scotland (that may change). I could do another 50% increase work load if it was possible.

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I don't hate the NHS, I hate what these utter scum have done to it. The principles behind its foundation were admirable.

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the wonderful thing about the market is that it picks out the losers for you and makes them go bankrupt. you don't need to bother finding them and executing them.

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the wonderful thing about the market is that it picks out the losers for you and makes them go bankrupt. you don't need to bother finding them and executing them.

You are being ironic right?

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The NHS is a ponzi scheme like the rest of the UK.

The people at the top have gotten all the benefits and high pay and the people at the bottom are being struck off.

I've become very disillusioned and sometimes think about dropping out but I have dedicated a large chunk of my life to my training and love my job (but hate the NHS).

Things are much worse in england than in scotland (that may change). I could do another 50% increase work load if it was possible.

Yep, if you've not got a consultant post now, economics and workforce demographics mean you arent going to get one. One recently retired consultants post in our trust isn't going to be re-filled, with the workload spread out amongst the existing workforce.

I advise current trainees accordingly. DONT get on the training treadmill in the UK, it's taking you nowhere.

Edited by jaspers

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http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b014gr72/Panorama_Gerry_and_the_GPs/

A few interesting points:

(1) We spend £100bn on NHS - why can't we have a few more CT scanner (get rid of a senior pen pusher and that is perfectly affordable)

(2) Procedures are ordered because it boost trust income (8min 30s) because the inter NHS payment system encourages activities

(3) Now ex Goldman Sach guys is in the business of private hospitals (16.46) and he said NHS cost £37bn 13 years ago, now £100bn.

(4) NHS needs managers who can manage the to achieve efficiencies

(5) With ageing population, NHS will be unsustainable and unaffordable (20.00)

(6) Two PCT merged and it cost £1bn (!) in redundancy payment

(7) Someone needs to make the tough and unpopular decision at center of NHS

The part that I thought was most interesting was when Geoffrey Robinson spoke (ranted) about the way that government policy was using the private sector as a stick to attempt to beat the NHS into efficiency rather than trying to tackle the issues within the NHS head-on.

I can see why though. it saves the politicians from making the tough decisions if they can leave it up to the "free market". Unfortunately, a free market in healthcare isn't necessarily the best way of achieving better outcomes (or cost savings), and it certainly isn't what doctors or patients seem to want.

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(1) We spend £100bn on NHS - why can't we have a few more CT scanner (get rid of a senior pen pusher and that is perfectly affordable)(

Interesting point that. After trying to convince my GP I had a serious problem with my intestines after surgery in 2008 I paid £500 for a private CT Scan on my Abdomen. The results got things moving and today a Senior Surgeon told me that the £500 spent was the best investment I have made in my life. So for the second time in 2 months a camera put again in a very awkward place and snip snip as the Surgeon goes about his business very uncomfortable but necessary to prevent any nasty future problems. <_<

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Interesting point that. After trying to convince my GP I had a serious problem with my intestines after surgery in 2008 I paid £500 for a private CT Scan on my Abdomen. The results got things moving and today a Senior Surgeon told me that the £500 spent was the best investment I have made in my life. So for the second time in 2 months a camera put again in a very awkward place and snip snip as the Surgeon goes about his business very uncomfortable but necessary to prevent any nasty future problems. <_<

I would recommend narrowing down what you think your condition might be, studying the NICE clinical guidelines for that condition, find the care pathway, and make sure your symptoms match the bit of the algorithm that gets you the scan. GPs are the main gatekeepers, but they are fairly drone-like in their pathway obsession. Get past them and the consultants will help more.

This is technically not cheating, just preventing you becoming a statistic, and will ensure you get the most out of your taxes.

Don't do this for conditions with dangerous diagnostics though :P

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I'm starting to think we ought to be a lot more China, with more of a command system accompanied by death by hanging for incompetent / corrupt /thieving managers and officials. The snag is they seem to have problems too, but just cover it all up. Here the thieving, ineptitude is barely concealed yet still carries on. We even reward it.

Trust me it's much worse here. A country as big and as complex as China needs to be incredibly efficient. The reason China are so efficient is because the people at the top are very understanding about corruption and money itself is very intertwined in the culture so they take the use of it's expenditure very seriously.

Obviously the people at the top are creaming it off for themselves but I get the feeling they work very hard to stop lower levels of management creaming the system, which is the opposite of what we do here.

Honestly our country would be much better off with one dictator who had morals and wanted to run the country for the people, not for the rich. Then we pay the dictator 1 billion pounds a year salary so that no one on earth is rich enough to bribe him.

Ofcourse it will never happen, because most people are several layers of stupidity behind realising why this would be an effective government. I think the first step is a society who stands up for itself (rioting etc) and proper political debates about the real issues putting real pressure on government to put someone with morals in charge.

Right now the reason why the politicians at the top let the lower levels of government be corrupt is because they are also corrupt so don't want the potential for giving people motivation to see their own corruption or admit that there is even corruption at any level of government.

Tax is much lower in China, so are land prices. These are the two main reasons why China is flourishing and our country is tanking fast. Our leaders philosophy is to tax as much as possible and put land costs as high as possible as this keeps most people poor, China's philosophy is keep tax and land prices low so that people can still have a good quality of life while on a lower salary thus allowing the whole country to be stronger through means of production and manufacturing.

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The NHS is a ponzi scheme like the rest of the UK.

The people at the top have gotten all the benefits and high pay and the people at the bottom are being struck off.

I've become very disillusioned and sometimes think about dropping out but I have dedicated a large chunk of my life to my training and love my job (but hate the NHS).

Things are much worse in england than in scotland (that may change). I could do another 50% increase work load if it was possible.

Are you one of these middle managers? I wouldn't feel bad about doing the job, after all you are just trying to make a living for yourself. At the end of the day it's the ones that created the management system that are to blame. As long as you are fighting the good cause for the front line staff I will support your decision.

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Trust me it's much worse here. A country as big and as complex as China needs to be incredibly efficient. The reason China are so efficient is because the people at the top are very understanding about corruption and money itself is very intertwined in the culture so they take the use of it's expenditure very seriously.

Obviously the people at the top are creaming it off for themselves but I get the feeling they work very hard to stop lower levels of management creaming the system, which is the opposite of what we do here.

Honestly our country would be much better off with one dictator who had morals and wanted to run the country for the people, not for the rich. Then we pay the dictator 1 billion pounds a year salary so that no one on earth is rich enough to bribe him.

Ofcourse it will never happen, because most people are several layers of stupidity behind realising why this would be an effective government. I think the first step is a society who stands up for itself (rioting etc) and proper political debates about the real issues putting real pressure on government to put someone with morals in charge.

Right now the reason why the politicians at the top let the lower levels of government be corrupt is because they are also corrupt so don't want the potential for giving people motivation to see their own corruption or admit that there is even corruption at any level of government.

Tax is much lower in China, so are land prices. These are the two main reasons why China is flourishing and our country is tanking fast. Our leaders philosophy is to tax as much as possible and put land costs as high as possible as this keeps most people poor, China's philosophy is keep tax and land prices low so that people can still have a good quality of life while on a lower salary thus allowing the whole country to be stronger through means of production and manufacturing.

Are you being facetious, or are you smoking crack?

Just curious

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It is an inherent quality of "health provision" that the more you invest in providing services, the unhealthier the population will become(1). You would not be surprised if provision of more casinos created more gamblers. So creating more hospitals and surgeries will create more patients, or consumers of health care. Specifically more people will believe they are ill and in need of services. Normal human experiences such as unemployment, unhappiness, poverty, marital disharmony, old age, childbirth and death have been now certified as "illnesses" and vast amounts of money spent on treating them. The treatments cost money and have side effects that create other illnesses. The process diverts finance away from solving the underlying problems (like poverty and social dysfunction) into paying for a qualified medical elite and their managers. People who can't find work can be re-classified as sick, so instead of finding productive work they are transformed into health consumers to provide more work for the medical system. As a destructive by-product it saps peoples' will to help themselves or each other and makes them passive receivers of medical treatment. There is an inevitability that the costs will rise, along with the harm to society. The system doesn't need tweaking. It needs a wholesale rethink.

(1)Illich, Ivan (1974). Medical Nemesis. London: Calder & Boyars. ISBN 0714510963. OCLC 224760852.

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Are you being facetious, or are you smoking crack?

Just curious

So do you think democracy is working? Democracy is only effective with an intelligent and informed population, what we have in Britain and most countries is far from that.

I think China is a more efficient system of government than ours, forget about human rights and the morals of government and concentrating on the issue of efficiency and corruption alone I don't think anything right now can come close to China on that. Their income tax and cost of renting accomodation is very low, you can live reasonably well on just 300 pounds/ month in China.

I think you are letting your hatred of China affect your point of view. And I completely understand why as China has a huge number of problems which can lead a person to very much dislike the country however there are also a lot of good things about China. There is a whole 'good side' to China in terms of culture, governmence and people but the bad side is so overwhelming that it makes it hard to see the good that is left.

I strongly believe if life in China was not so high pressured in terms of long working hours that people would be much happier and this good side would flourish, sadly it will probably not happen in my lifetime.

Also I don't think you can blame the Chinese government for the long working hours culture, this is a symptom of too many people and not enough jobs but the government have done a great job to provide as many jobs as possible. If it was the British government running China, the country would be destroyed within a month.

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So do you think democracy is working? Democracy is only effective with an intelligent and informed population, what we have in Britain and most countries is far from that.

I think we are deviating from the topic but anyway...it is irrelevant whether democracy is deemed to be effective or not. People have the right to be involved in their governance.

I think China is a more efficient system of government than ours, forget about human rights and the morals of government and concentrating on the issue of efficiency and corruption alone I don't think anything right now can come close to China on that. Their income tax and cost of renting accomodation is very low, you can live reasonably well on just 300 pounds/ month in China.

I really don't understand that at all. What do you mean by efficient? China is horrifically corrupt. Are you saying it is less corrupt than the UK? Renting maybe cheap - what about buying? 300 pounds a month - what is the average wage?

I think you are letting your hatred of China affect your point of view. And I completely understand why as China has a huge number of problems which can lead a person to very much dislike the country however there are also a lot of good things about China. There is a whole 'good side' to China in terms of culture, governmence and people but the bad side is so overwhelming that it makes it hard to see the good that is left.

I don't hate China - I just don't understand what you are on about. I just think it is fecked long term.

I strongly believe if life in China was not so high pressured in terms of long working hours that people would be much happier and this good side would flourish, sadly it will probably not happen in my lifetime.

Quite possibly

Also I don't think you can blame the Chinese government for the long working hours culture, this is a symptom of too many people and not enough jobs but the government have done a great job to provide as many jobs as possible.

I don't get the idea that the long hours are necessary because there are too many people and not enough jobs. Surely you need long working hours if there are too many jobs and not enough people. Surely if there are too many people and not enough jobs hours should be shorter. Unless you are trying to argue that employers can squeeze employees as employees are scared of losing their jobs. Again this doesn't make sense in terms of an economy growing at 10% a year. There should be loads of jobs. I fail to see how the govt has done a great job of providing jobs. The govt has pursued an unsustainable merchantilist policy buoyed by manipulating their currency which has the effect of keeping the vast majority of their populace poor whilst the elite poison the air, the food and the water then take their ill gotten gains and bugger off out of the country. In the short term they have created jobs, in the long term they have stored up massive, massive problems.

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Are you one of these middle managers? I wouldn't feel bad about doing the job, after all you are just trying to make a living for yourself. At the end of the day it's the ones that created the management system that are to blame. As long as you are fighting the good cause for the front line staff I will support your decision.

^ this.

Don't hate me for nabbing a cushy job :ph34r:

Saving lives indirectly is still saving lives B) (... and deciding who is too expensive to save)

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  • 284 Brexit, House prices and Summer 2020

    1. 1. Including the effects Brexit, where do you think average UK house prices will be relative to now in June 2020?


      • down 5% +
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      • Even
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      • up 5%



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