AvidFan Posted September 6, 2011 Share Posted September 6, 2011 http://touch.forexpros.com/news/forex-news/british-mp-calls-for-foreign-currencies-to-be-made-legal-in-uk-223236 British MP calls for foreign currencies to be made legal in UK 2011-09-05 17:41:52 GMT A British MP is to urge parliament to make a basket of foreign currencies legal tender in the UK.Conservative MP Douglas Carswell is to introduce his Bill next week, when Parliament returns from its summer recess. He said it would allow consumers to shop around for the best currency deal - perhaps via a smartphone application - when buying goods in shops or online. Mr Carswell told the BBC News website: "The government should not have a monopoly to decide what currency there is to spend. It would be perfectly possible for people to shop around." He argues that making a basket of currencies legal tender would deter the government from further quantitative easing - or "printing money" - which effectively reduces its value. He said that successive British governments had devalued the pound "in order to transfer wealth from the people to the government", and allowing citizens to shop around for currency would hand power back to them. "If we believe in competition and choice then this is what we should be doing. Is there any good reason why would not do it?" said the Harwich MP. "If people are allowed to decide what music they listen to, why not give them control over the really important things like what currency they use to plan their financial future." He accepts that government ministers and the Bank of England would be highly reluctant to relinquish control of the nation's currency, but insists he is serious about the proposal. Neil Mellor, a currency strategist at Bank of New York Mellon, said Mr Carswell's plan would have to be executed on a massive scale for it to have any impact on the economy. "It doesn't sound like something that would be taken too seriously at the Bank of England, but we will have to see," he told the BBC News website. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
interestrateripoff Posted September 6, 2011 Share Posted September 6, 2011 An interesting development, it would certainly make tax returns interesting would HMRC just ask for the valuable currency in payment? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShedDweller Posted September 6, 2011 Share Posted September 6, 2011 An interesting development, it would certainly make tax returns interesting would HMRC just ask for the valuable currency in payment? No they take an average from the exchange rate over the year. I earn mostly in Euros and the Inland Revenue give an average rate for the year and you pay that in sterling .. due to the constantly falling nature of the pound I don't change anything until the last second. The situation in the UK is totally mad. There are laws that stop "Euro Creep" so that for retail sales the only currency you can accept is Sterling. In Poland or the Czech Republic you can pay in Euros in places like petrol stations. but not in England (I'm not sure about northern Ireland). But I guess if we did allow that it would just show how shafted we are getting .. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
easy2012 Posted September 6, 2011 Share Posted September 6, 2011 http://touch.forexpros.com/news/forex-news/british-mp-calls-for-foreign-currencies-to-be-made-legal-in-uk-223236 British MP calls for foreign currencies to be made legal in UK 2011-09-05 17:41:52 GMT Foreign currencies are already legal in the UK... it is just up to the shops if they want to accept it. Free market also means that people are free to decide which currencies they want to accept and passing a legislation to force people to accept foreign currencies isn't right either. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aa3 Posted September 6, 2011 Share Posted September 6, 2011 Currencies are very interesting things. They need to be limited in supply so they retain their value. At the same time they need to be easy to get so that everyone can exchange with them. I might put my wares for sale in British Pounds. But if your average person can't get many £ to spend, then I am not going to get many customers. My friend was telling me about online currencies that people are tryign to start. People aren't even sure how they would work, but we know we need money to trade with each other. Most Brits are starving for Pounds right now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Traktion Posted September 6, 2011 Share Posted September 6, 2011 Foreign currencies are already legal in the UK... it is just up to the shops if they want to accept it. Free market also means that people are free to decide which currencies they want to accept and passing a legislation to force people to accept foreign currencies isn't right either. They are not legal tender though, ie. you can be forced to compensate another in sterling by the courts. Changing what was legal tender would allow the courts to offer you a series of ways to extinguish a debt. By extension, this would mean you could pay your taxes in non-sterling currency. I would hope (expect?) gold and silver by weight would be considered too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Traktion Posted September 6, 2011 Share Posted September 6, 2011 (edited) I think this is actually a rather interesting development too. Douglas Carswell (who is mostly pro free market and sympathetic with the Austrian school) also put forward a bill to make banks define whether deposits were loans to the bank or savings, but the establishment (read: the bankers who are in bed with the politicians) haven't rushed to back the changes. I find it very interesting that smart phones were mentioned too, as I and others have been suggesting this will make such things easy for years on here. It's so easy to make a digital transaction via a smart phone, that you wouldn't have to worry about having endless different notes and change in your wallet, in order for it to be feasible. With Bitcoins as a transit currency, you don't even need the banks involved at all*. Competing currencies are long overdue. See Hayek in my signature for a good read on why. * Which is why I expect them to protest and then their mouth piece (the government) to agree, saying it would 'destabilise the economy' or some such rubbish. Edited September 6, 2011 by Traktion Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Traktion Posted September 6, 2011 Share Posted September 6, 2011 An interesting development, it would certainly make tax returns interesting would HMRC just ask for the valuable currency in payment? They would have to accept the equivalent value in any currency. If they refused to, the law would force them to, by rights of the alternatives being legal tender. If there were many currencies, all with equal legal status, then they wouldn't have any right to ask for one over another. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leicestersq Posted September 6, 2011 Share Posted September 6, 2011 They are not legal tender though, ie. you can be forced to compensate another in sterling by the courts. Changing what was legal tender would allow the courts to offer you a series of ways to extinguish a debt. By extension, this would mean you could pay your taxes in non-sterling currency. I would hope (expect?) gold and silver by weight would be considered too. Making a foreign currency, one that can be printed at the whim of a mad politician, legal tender in the UK? Is he really that crazy? No problem with people accepting foreign currency as payment if that is acceptable to both parties. But as a sovereign nation you must have just one reference currency that you control the issue of, or no currency at all. I wouldnt wish to choose the latter option. It is the option that normally gets thrust upon you through economic mismanagement. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Injin Posted September 6, 2011 Share Posted September 6, 2011 Making a foreign currency, one that can be printed at the whim of a mad politician, legal tender in the UK? Is he really that crazy? Why not? Everyone is free to choose to accept the mad money of their choice. it#'s not like people are unaware of money printing politicians. No problem with people accepting foreign currency as payment if that is acceptable to both parties. But as a sovereign nation you must have just one reference currency that you control the issue of, or no currency at all. I wouldnt wish to choose the latter option. It is the option that normally gets thrust upon you through economic mismanagement. Not so. There were sovereign states under an international market chosen gold standard. Modern legal tender laws only came in after the engineered crash of that system. Obviously such a system of competition would constrain the BoE and the commercial banks in their rape of the public so it won't be allowed. The theory is sound though. Imagine if mervyns call for giving the banks £200bn was met with a population wide dumping of sterling? Means bank bailouts become impossible. Tony Blair wants to water the currency down and go to Iraq? Forget a million on the streets, everyone switches to swissies and theres no war. Given the banksters want to kill at whim and steal for fun no chance. But it's the right sort of move for everyone else. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MongerOfDoom Posted September 6, 2011 Share Posted September 6, 2011 http://touch.forexpr...al-in-uk-223236 British MP calls for foreign currencies to be made legal in UK 2011-09-05 17:41:52 GMT I think he has a screw loose. I am pretty sure it is already possible to pay for things in foreign currency in places frequented by tourists, and there is nothing at all to stop you i) using a credit card denominated in foreign currency, or ii) pay off a Sterling denominated card using foreign currency. Clearly, there is no chance at all that this will be implemented if for no other reason then because the interest on notes in issue would accrue to someone other than the BoE. That leaves the question of why he bothers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leicestersq Posted September 6, 2011 Share Posted September 6, 2011 Why not? Everyone is free to choose to accept the mad money of their choice. it#'s not like people are unaware of money printing politicians. Not so. There were sovereign states under an international market chosen gold standard. Modern legal tender laws only came in after the engineered crash of that system. Obviously such a system of competition would constrain the BoE and the commercial banks in their rape of the public so it won't be allowed. The theory is sound though. Imagine if mervyns call for giving the banks £200bn was met with a population wide dumping of sterling? Means bank bailouts become impossible. Tony Blair wants to water the currency down and go to Iraq? Forget a million on the streets, everyone switches to swissies and theres no war. Given the banksters want to kill at whim and steal for fun no chance. But it's the right sort of move for everyone else. You seem confused here Injin. "Everyone is free to choose to accept the mad money of their choice." - Yes, I think I said that, its legal tender which means you have to take it whether you like it or not. "Imagine if mervyns call for giving the banks £200bn was met with a population wide dumping of sterling?" - Even if a currency is legal tender it cannot escape the laws of supply and demand. The value of the pound fell, partly as a result of that QE. "everyone switches to swissies and theres no war." - Sure, as long as both parties agree, you can do that now. What is wrong is that one side becomes OBLIGED to take Swiss Francs to settle a debt. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Injin Posted September 6, 2011 Share Posted September 6, 2011 You seem confused here Injin. "Everyone is free to choose to accept the mad money of their choice." - Yes, I think I said that, its legal tender which means you have to take it whether you like it or not. Ah, you misunderstand what legal tender means. Legal tender is the money accepted by courts, for licences and fines and for taxes. You can still refuse it for purchases if you want. No shop has to give you goods, no person has to work for you. "Imagine if mervyns call for giving the banks £200bn was met with a population wide dumping of sterling?" - Even if a currency is legal tender it cannot escape the laws of supply and demand. The value of the pound fell, partly as a result of that QE. It'd fall a hell of a lot more if no one had to acquire them to pay taxes, licences and fines. If mervyn suggested £200bn of bailout and the response was everyone handing their sterling back, he'd have to not bother. it's called market discipline. "everyone switches to swissies and theres no war." - Sure, as long as both parties agree, you can do that now. What is wrong is that one side becomes OBLIGED to take Swiss Francs to settle a debt. You don't have to get into debt. And if it's wrong to be forced to take swissies, it must be wrong to be forced to take sterling. So lets remove the legal tender law entirely. But in the meantime this is a good halfway house. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R K Posted September 6, 2011 Share Posted September 6, 2011 Interesting development. Similar to my suggestion for smart technology enabled variable local 'sterling' currencies. It's bonkers Merv and his chums setting rates and a nation wide price for the currency as a whole, when they could just as easily be set at a meta level by locality and/or transaction or any other form. The eussro of course being an even more extreme version of this failed model. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leicestersq Posted September 6, 2011 Share Posted September 6, 2011 Ah, you misunderstand what legal tender means. Legal tender is the money accepted by courts, for licences and fines and for taxes. You can still refuse it for purchases if you want. No shop has to give you goods, no person has to work for you. I think I understand what it means. No one has to trade with you, but you have to have some method to repay your debts, and to denominate those debts. It'd fall a hell of a lot more if no one had to acquire them to pay taxes, licences and fines. If mervyn suggested £200bn of bailout and the response was everyone handing their sterling back, he'd have to not bother. it's called market discipline. Yes that is true. Fiat money is only worth something, because you are obliged to pay your taxes in them. This is why the nations that issues Fiat money, must make it legal tender and demand it for payment of tax. You don't have to get into debt. And if it's wrong to be forced to take swissies, it must be wrong to be forced to take sterling. You have to have some way of repaying your debts, whether the lender likes it or not. You have to have legal tender. Otherwise crooked lenders might say, "Ah well, I wanted gold last week, but the value of it has gone down you see and it isnt worth as much, so please can I have silver instead". Legal tender stops that nonsense. Also, you have to have one currency used by government or else the Fiat issued by government will quickly become worthless. So lets remove the legal tender law entirely. Well yes, I had thought that what you really meant was to remove Sterling as legal tender, rather than what this guy appears to be calling for, which is to make other currencies legal tender. I cant agree with that either, I just dont see how anything would work organisationally if there was no legal tender currency to be used as a marker. How could you denominate or define what the debt that needs to be settled was? But in the meantime this is a good halfway house. We will disagree on that. It would be interesting to see another country try it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Traktion Posted September 6, 2011 Share Posted September 6, 2011 I think he has a screw loose. I am pretty sure it is already possible to pay for things in foreign currency in places frequented by tourists, and there is nothing at all to stop you i) using a credit card denominated in foreign currency, or ii) pay off a Sterling denominated card using foreign currency. Clearly, there is no chance at all that this will be implemented if for no other reason then because the interest on notes in issue would accrue to someone other than the BoE. That leaves the question of why he bothers. It's not legal tender though, ie. can be used to extinguish debts (including those to the tax man) in a court of law. Currently, the courts can insist that you pay in Sterling, giving a forced demand for it, playing into the hands of those who are monopolising it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Traktion Posted September 6, 2011 Share Posted September 6, 2011 Interesting development. Similar to my suggestion for smart technology enabled variable local 'sterling' currencies. It's bonkers Merv and his chums setting rates and a nation wide price for the currency as a whole, when they could just as easily be set at a meta level by locality and/or transaction or any other form. The eussro of course being an even more extreme version of this failed model. It doesn't stop there either. Monopolising a currency, means the holders can extract rent from it, because it is needed to extinguish debts in a court of law. There is no reason to maintain legal tender laws - the courts can request equivalents easily enough. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leicestersq Posted September 6, 2011 Share Posted September 6, 2011 It doesn't stop there either. Monopolising a currency, means the holders can extract rent from it, because it is needed to extinguish debts in a court of law. There is no reason to maintain legal tender laws - the courts can request equivalents easily enough. Without a legal tender, then what becomes the equivalent? You have to have a standard yardstick to define those equivalents, which you can only do by having a legal tender. And as monies are fungible, then why not just stick with said legal tender? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Injin Posted September 6, 2011 Share Posted September 6, 2011 I think I understand what it means. No one has to trade with you, but you have to have some method to repay your debts, and to denominate those debts. No you don't. Yes that is true. Fiat money is only worth something, because you are obliged to pay your taxes in them. This is why the nations that issues Fiat money, must make it legal tender and demand it for payment of tax. Yes, or use a money that actualyl has value, chosen by the market. (Such as gold, silver, cake, whatever.) There is no need fo rthe government to decide what money is, the government can simply steal whatever the market chooses instead. You have to have some way of repaying your debts, whether the lender likes it or not. You have to have legal tender. Otherwise crooked lenders might say, "Ah well, I wanted gold last week, but the value of it has gone down you see and it isnt worth as much, so please can I have silver instead". Legal tender stops that nonsense. So does having a contract for gold that doesn't go through and there the matter ends. No reason debts get repaid at all. it's perfectly possible for debts to simply go unpaid. This is properly the risk of the lender. if they majke a bad bet, they lose and that's fine. The idea that debt persists beyond the point where matters obviously have overtaken conception si completely lunacy, time for it to go. Also, you have to have one currency used by government or else the Fiat issued by government will quickly become worthless. So what? Well yes, I had thought that what you really meant was to remove Sterling as legal tender, rather than what this guy appears to be calling for, which is to make other currencies legal tender. I cant agree with that either, I just dont see how anything would work organisationally if there was no legal tender currency to be used as a marker. How could you denominate or define what the debt that needs to be settled was? Market forces. We will disagree on that. It would be interesting to see another country try it. No chance. Banksters need fiat because without it they are all working at Maccie D's! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Injin Posted September 6, 2011 Share Posted September 6, 2011 Without a legal tender, then what becomes the equivalent? You have to have a standard yardstick to define those equivalents, which you can only do by having a legal tender. And as monies are fungible, then why not just stick with said legal tender? Absolutely no need for a standard yardstick. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Injin Posted September 6, 2011 Share Posted September 6, 2011 It doesn't stop there either. Monopolising a currency, means the holders can extract rent from it, because it is needed to extinguish debts in a court of law. There is no reason to maintain legal tender laws - the courts can request equivalents easily enough. They don't even have to do that. "Bob promised me 16 oz of gold and didn't pay" "More fool you, we'll publish that Bob failed to pay and you can't pick a good loanee. Bye." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MongerOfDoom Posted September 6, 2011 Share Posted September 6, 2011 It's not legal tender though, ie. can be used to extinguish debts (including those to the tax man) in a court of law. Currently, the courts can insist that you pay in Sterling, giving a forced demand for it, playing into the hands of those who are monopolising it. No. The demand happened when you borrowed it (or incurred the tax liability). I am pretty sure you can only be forced to pay Sterling debts in Sterling. Do you want your employer to be able to pay you in whatever currency they like best, perhaps that commonly used in the Ukraine? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leicestersq Posted September 6, 2011 Share Posted September 6, 2011 Absolutely no need for a standard yardstick. Very difficult to account for anything if you dont have one. Impossible if you are running a large government. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Injin Posted September 6, 2011 Share Posted September 6, 2011 No. The demand happened when you borrowed it (or incurred the tax liability). I am pretty sure you can only be forced to pay Sterling debts in Sterling. Do you want your employer to be able to pay you in whatever currency they like best, perhaps that commonly used in the Ukraine? Easily rectified by paying up front for stuff in escrow. Tbh the more I think about it, the better this suggestions gets. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Injin Posted September 6, 2011 Share Posted September 6, 2011 Very difficult to account for anything if you dont have one. Impossible if you are running a large government. Absolutely no need to have a large government. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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