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Migrant Mother

Nhs Hospital Management By Overseas Firms 'discussed'

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Senior officials discussed handing the management of up to 20 English NHS hospitals to overseas companies, emails released by the government indicate.

Talks included plans to hand over one hospital at a time due to "political restraints", the Observer reports.

It comes as Lib Dem peer Shirley Williams said she has "huge concerns" over the NHS reform plans.

Health Secretary Andrew Lansley says claims the government aims to privatise the NHS are "ludicrous scaremongering".

The emails were released after a Freedom of Information request by non-profit investigations organisation Spinwatch.

They are reported to show that consulting firm McKinsey was acting as a broker between the Department of Health and "international players" for contracts worth hundreds of millions of pounds.

One email talks about "interest in new solution for 10-20 hospitals but starting from a mindset of one at a time with various political constraints".

The Department of Health said it was not unusual to hold meetings with external organisations and that NHS staff and assets would always remain wholly owned by the NHS.

The government is in the process of trying to overhaul the way the NHS in England works, giving GPs and other clinicians much more responsibility for spending and encouraging greater competition with the private sector.

The controversial plans have been labelled some of the most radical in the history of the health service.

Legal duty

Mr Lansley said: "The reality is that we're giving more power and choice to patients over how they get treated, keeping waiting times low and cutting bureaucracy so more cash gets to the front line.

"We will not allow these lies to block the progress we want to achieve for patients."

The government's plans were put on hold in the spring after criticisms from MPs and health unions. A series of concessions to the Health and Social Care Bill were proposed and MPs will debate the legislation this week.

Meanwhile, Lady Williams said the battle over bill was "far from over" and the reforms "need not mean upheaval and disintegration".

Writing in the Observer, she said: "The central issue is whether, if the bill is passed without further amendment, there will be any legal duty... to provide and secure a comprehensive health service for the people of England, free at the point of need - the heart of what the NHS is all about."

She added: "I am not against a private element in the NHS, which may bring innovation and good practice, provided it is within the framework of a public service - complementary but not wrecking.

"But why have they been bewitched by a flawed US system?"

Her comments follow renewed demonstrations against the reforms this weekend by health workers across England.

Candlelit vigils and protests were held in areas including London, Reading, Cambridge, Norwich, Sunderland, Manchester, Brighton, Leeds and Portsmouth.

Christina McAnea, head of health at the union Unison, said: "People are rightly proud of an NHS that puts patient need before private profit, and voting through this Bill will be the end of the NHS as we know it."

BBC

The Observer

Read the comments, people will go nuts about this!

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BBC

The Observer

Read the comments, people will go nuts about this!

Good to hear someone in authority might be thinking outside the box.

'Cos as of now, NHS bureaucracy is a terminally sick joke and needs to be swept away. And the idea of just handing it on a plate to some unpleasant bunch like Shirko lacks appeal.

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I remember a few years back a big German bank decided to outsource its entire back office to India. 6,000 jobs were outsourced to India, and the Indian firm replaced them with just 1,200 Indians.

The overheads are just too insane in the UK, so much so that its not even possible to do a lot of functions. For example an economist noted why does a pack of gum sell for £1.10 in the UK, but something like £0.12 cents in China. They are made in the same factory.

Just the office rents in London to house a few thousand managers is astronomical.

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Who cares as long the NHS is managed better. Not sure why this a story of any interest? Let people go nuts. Surely it is more important that it is managed well, what has geography got to do with it.

The NHS is so badly managed it's not even funny. Most of the extra money poured in over the last 10 years seems to have gone on fattening salaries rather than patient care. Now everyone is worried about the money going to private sector profit?

The NHS has no clear objectives and there is no clear idea of what exactly it is meant to do or not. A good start would be clarifying this.

If I were the government I would not even bother changing or reforming one bit of it. Just leave it to be massively inefficient with no clear objectives. I would urge them to drop all reform, expand the budget by inflation every year and leave it to rot.

There is no way of having a rational debate about what could be improved. Why even bother?

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As long as the foreign companies get rid of the MASSIVE inefficiency within the NHS ... I'm all for it :)

Hopefully they will fire all of the lazy workers who surf the internet for half of their working day ... and the ones who arrive at work over an hour late.

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You don't get market efficiency by letting Government officials award contracts to crony capitalists.

In fact, the history of healthcare commissioning is one of failure. This is no surprise. Commissioned markets are nothing like free markets (as described by Adam Smith). The purchaser is not the consumer and has interests that often run completely counter to the interests of the consumer.

The management inefficiency in the NHS is a direct result of the market structure - incentives are mostly tied to a bewildering array of targets set by multiple central quangos. So foreign firms won't be a panacea if the structure remains the same.

I'll give an example. There has been a collapse in hospital nursing standards over the last 10 - 20 years. The current incentive structure would motivate senior managers to reduce staff: patient ratios, reduce staff skill mix and reduce patient in-patient stay. All these policies will actually cause a further deterioration in nursing care.

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You don't get market efficiency by letting Government officials award contracts to crony capitalists.

In fact, the history of healthcare commissioning is one of failure. This is no surprise. Commissioned markets are nothing like free markets (as described by Adam Smith). The purchaser is not the consumer and has interests that often run completely counter to the interests of the consumer.

The management inefficiency in the NHS is a direct result of the market structure - incentives are mostly tied to a bewildering array of targets set by multiple central quangos. So foreign firms won't be a panacea if the structure remains the same.

I'll give an example. There has been a collapse in hospital nursing standards over the last 10 - 20 years. The current incentive structure would motivate senior managers to reduce staff: patient ratios, reduce staff skill mix and reduce patient in-patient stay. All these policies will actually cause a further deterioration in nursing care.

Per head of population the NHS is actually quite a low cost health care provider compared with most western foreign counter parts (mainly due to resource rationing) so I dont expect any of the mooted efficiencies or savings from overseas expertise will ever appear. More numb nuts ideology and troughing opportunities for politicians chums from a Coalition government that is every much as bankrupt of any new ideas as its Nu Lab predecessors. Obviously all we need to do is carry on outsourcing because its has been such a huge success for the UK PLC to date.The only thing you will be seeing is how much money these firms can extract from the taxpayer for delivering less. As you rightly point out the incentives for improvement are directed at the wrong people (ie the management) rather than the people who actually do the work in the hospitals.

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Per head of population the NHS is actually quite a low cost health care provider compared with most western foreign counter parts (mainly due to resource rationing) so I dont expect any of the mooted efficiencies or savings from overseas expertise will ever appear. More numb nuts ideology and troughing opportunities for politicians chums from a Coalition government that is every much as bankrupt of any new ideas as its Nu Lab predecessors. Obviously all we need to do is carry on outsourcing because its has been such a huge success for the UK PLC to date.The only thing you will be seeing is how much money these firms can extract from the taxpayer for delivering less. As you rightly point out the incentives for improvement are directed at the wrong people (ie the management) rather than the people who actually do the work in the hospitals.

Yep, there are certainly inefficiencies in the NHS but it is low cost for the UK and UK companies so there are no guarantees that it will improve. The USA spends more than double the UK as a percentage of GDP but they dont get double the level of service and provision its either very inefficient there or someone (usual suspects, doctors/insurance companies/outsourcers) is extracting alot of money from the system.

Health expenditure (2009 figures) - UK 7.5% of GDP, USA 16%. of GDP, Germany 10.9%etc

http://economix.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/07/08/us-health-spending-breaks-from-the-pack/

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I'm not convinced it would make much difference with the nurses whether you had masters level nurses, or girls just out of high school caring for patients.

First off sadly, but true, by the time you are in the hospital for a prolonged stay its most likely game over. 40% of lifetime medical spending is in the last 2 weeks of the average person's life.

Secondly if you are in such a precarious state of health that it makes a big difference whether you are in the hospital or at home recovering.. again your time has to be close to an end.

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Yep, there are certainly inefficiencies in the NHS but it is low cost for the UK and UK companies so there are no guarantees that it will improve. The USA spends more than double the UK as a percentage of GDP but they dont get double the level of service and provision its either very inefficient there or someone (usual suspects, doctors/insurance companies/outsourcers) is extracting alot of money from the system.

Health expenditure (2009 figures) - UK 7.5% of GDP, USA 16%. of GDP, Germany 10.9%etc

http://economix.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/07/08/us-health-spending-breaks-from-the-pack/

http://image.guardian.co.uk/sys-files/Guardian/documents/2011/08/07/JRSMpaperPritWall.pdf

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I don't know we haven't onshored Indian doctors & get rid of the ridiculous salaries the current lot get. If we are going down the onshoring/outsourcing route why stop at Computing? Let's all benefit from it. We can get first-class doctors from Mumbai at a fraction of a cost of this lot. It's a brave new world so let's all benefit from it.

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I don't know we haven't onshored Indian doctors & get rid of the ridiculous salaries the current lot get. If we are going down the onshoring/outsourcing route why stop at Computing? Let's all benefit from it. We can get first-class doctors from Mumbai at a fraction of a cost of this lot. It's a brave new world so let's all benefit from it.

You've never been seriously ill have you? Never had to depend on anyone making the right decision to save your life have you? I have, and quite frankly was relieved that I has a newly UK qualified junior doctor involved in my care. Made the right decisions her senior non-UK trained Consultant failed to do.

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You don't get market efficiency by letting Government officials award contracts to crony capitalists.

In fact, the history of healthcare commissioning is one of failure. This is no surprise. Commissioned markets are nothing like free markets (as described by Adam Smith). The purchaser is not the consumer and has interests that often run completely counter to the interests of the consumer.

Then you'll welcome the news that at least someone appears not to be wedded to ever more of the same.

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Then you'll welcome the news that at least someone appears not to be wedded to ever more of the same.

Why on earth would anyone welcome those plans?

Heath care like railways, water utilities, roads, 100% do not respond to free market principles in a way that drives down costs and inefficiencies. This is perfectly obvious from looking at the US system as well as an examination of health care from first principles.

If it is privatized which those plans seems to suggest is the goal we will end up with slightly better outcomes, but with a much much more costly system where vast amounts of tax payers money is creamed off by private corporations.

Railway privatization MK II? no thanks.

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You've never been seriously ill have you? Never had to depend on anyone making the right decision to save your life have you? I have, and quite frankly was relieved that I has a newly UK qualified junior doctor involved in my care. Made the right decisions her senior non-UK trained Consultant failed to do.

good post, i recently required NHS care (serious) and cant say enough good things about the staff and care provided. One of the few services that I am more than happy to be taxed for...

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I'm always amused at the mental gymnastics employed by the "free marketers" who feel obliged to criticise a state-run system that operates without competition yet produces similar outcomes at a fraction of the cost of the market driven alternatives used in the rest of the world.

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I'm always amused at the mental gymnastics employed by the "free marketers" who feel obliged to criticise a state-run system that operates without competition yet produces similar outcomes at a fraction of the cost of the market driven alternatives used in the rest of the world.

The plot against the NHS

Three major changes in the NHS were required. First, the taboo on private provision of NHS clinical services had to be overcome, and a bridgehead created for the private sector in the NHS. Second, NHS organisations had to be converted into real businesses, not the make-believe businesses of the so-called internal market. Third, the ties between the NHS workforce and the NHS had to be weakened, so that enough NHS staff would be ready to transfer to private sector employment as private providers took over more and more NHS work. Milburn initiated all three of these changes.

But one question can't be entirely omitted from even this brief account: how could the NHS be abolished as a public service without a debate and without the public knowing? The answer is really the story of what has become of democracy in the neoliberal age, condensed into a single case. Spin, of course, has played a big part – secrecy, misrepresentation, manipulation of statistics, lies and the suppression of criticism. But even more important has been a radical change in the nature of government: in effect, the state itself has been privatised.

'Problem' (bogus), Reaction (useful idiots), 'Solution' (The aim).

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I'm always amused at the mental gymnastics employed by the "free marketers" who feel obliged to criticise a state-run system that operates without competition yet produces similar outcomes at a fraction of the cost of the market driven alternatives used in the rest of the world.

Because the very existence is evidence that markets do not provide all the answers.

Ironically, it's much the same as the way that Communist regimes had to make sure that their citizens could not travel to the west.

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I'm always amused at the mental gymnastics employed by the "free marketers" who feel obliged to criticise a state-run system that operates without competition yet produces similar outcomes at a fraction of the cost of the market driven alternatives used in the rest of the world.

It does nothing of the kind.

It's a lottery. If your lucky it provides good care. If you're unlucky it provides nothing at all in your hour of need, but you still have to pay for it.

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Why on earth would anyone welcome those plans?

Heath care like railways, water utilities, roads, 100% do not respond to free market principles in a way that drives down costs and inefficiencies. This is perfectly obvious from looking at the US system as well as an examination of health care from first principles.

If it is privatized which those plans seems to suggest is the goal we will end up with slightly better outcomes, but with a much much more costly system where vast amounts of tax payers money is creamed off by private corporations.

Railway privatization MK II? no thanks.

Yes.

Basically, what it boils down to is that I definitely do not trust government and I definitely do not trust private corporations.

I think most people in this world are with me on this. :)

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It does nothing of the kind.

It's a lottery. If your lucky it provides good care. If you're unlucky it provides nothing at all in your hour of need, but you still have to pay for it.

If it provides nothing in your hour of need, you pay privately, just like with any other public healthcare service failure. US private healthcare users pay more both for their private care, and their subsidisation of Medicare and Medicaid.

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It does nothing of the kind.

It's a lottery. If your lucky it provides good care. If you're unlucky it provides nothing at all in your hour of need, but you still have to pay for it.

Hyperbolic ********. But even if it is a lottery, at least it means the average man on the street stands at least a chance of good care. If it was opened up to full privatisation like the US system the average man would have to pay through the nose for any level of care.

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Hyperbolic ********. But even if it is a lottery, at least it means the average man on the street stands at least a chance of good care. If it was opened up to full privatisation like the US system the average man would have to pay through the nose for any level of care.

NHS has been put in this position by the management shill layers, inserted over a decade ago, undermining it.

Rich and super rich not paying their fair whack back into society 'legalising' themselves into off-shoring, trusta-funder, tax avoiders - their legalised theft from society undermines the whole creating this vacuum in funds!

- makes them THE UK 'Parasites' - greedy to exploit cash from the UK population but pay minimal back in supporting the country that enriches them - immoral corrupt scum who should not be looked up to!

That includes the multi-million tax avoiding SP-icy Beckhams & others - 'chump' of the working mans game :P)

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  • 343 Brexit, House prices and Summer 2020

    1. 1. Including the effects Brexit, where do you think average UK house prices will be relative to now in June 2020?


      • down 5% +
      • down 2.5%
      • Even
      • up 2.5%
      • up 5%



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