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dryrot

Debt Forgiveness Given An Airing In Eire

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hi

from the good people at the wwwthepropertypin.com i link to:

http://www.independent.ie/opinion/analysis/those-who-bought-in-the-boom-are-victims-not-fools-2853786.html

"hose who bought in the boom are victims, not fools - Debt forgiveness for homeowners in negative equity is not only fair, it is in everyone's interest, writes Marc Coleman"

"This approach is being hampered by a stupid misguided morality, however. It's a morality that goes something like this: those with excessive residential mortgage debt made their own bed and should lie on it. For investors, the argument might have some truth (even here, it is still counter-productive)."

[..]

"Firstly, credit conditions must normalise, so that the considerable demographic power of the economy can be harnessed, allowing young people with jobs to start borrowing. As well as confidence, this will restore multiple bidding and that will help towards arriving at a sustainable equilibrium for house prices. It will also boost exchequer revenues.

Secondly, we need a credible debt-forgiveness strategy: The fact that much residential mortgage debt was caused not by "moral hazard" but by systematic policy failure is now being grasped in Spain and the US."

I'll leave the rest for y'all to grind your teeth over... :)

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hi

from the good people at the wwwthepropertypin.com i link to:

http://www.independent.ie/opinion/analysis/those-who-bought-in-the-boom-are-victims-not-fools-2853786.html

"hose who bought in the boom are victims, not fools - Debt forgiveness for homeowners in negative equity is not only fair, it is in everyone's interest, writes Marc Coleman"

"This approach is being hampered by a stupid misguided morality, however. It's a morality that goes something like this: those with excessive residential mortgage debt made their own bed and should lie on it. For investors, the argument might have some truth (even here, it is still counter-productive)."

[..]

"Firstly, credit conditions must normalise, so that the considerable demographic power of the economy can be harnessed, allowing young people with jobs to start borrowing. As well as confidence, this will restore multiple bidding and that will help towards arriving at a sustainable equilibrium for house prices. It will also boost exchequer revenues.

Secondly, we need a credible debt-forgiveness strategy: The fact that much residential mortgage debt was caused not by "moral hazard" but by systematic policy failure is now being grasped in Spain and the US."

I'll leave the rest for y'all to grind your teeth over... :)

I need bookie forgiveness....if I go to William hill and make a loosing bet I should get my bet back. I'll be happy to make another bet so long as I win.

They need to bring back debtors prisons....EDIT: the debtors prisons can be right next door to the bankers prisons.

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In the ROI you can easily be put in prison for debt-- there was a couple of cases of Credit Union debt that ended up with people in prison for a few thousand when the bankers and developers got away with billions.

I hear you can also be knee-capped. :o

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I need bookie forgiveness....if I go to William hill and make a loosing bet I should get my bet back. I'll be happy to make another bet so long as I win.

They need to bring back debtors prisons....EDIT: the debtors prisons can be right next door to the bankers prisons.

The problem with advocating debtors prisons as a solution to these issues is pretty simple - all the debts were racked up using fraud and should be cancelled.

By rights, no one is in debt at all.

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The problem with advocating debtors prisons as a solution to these issues is pretty simple - all the debts were racked up using fraud and should be cancelled.

By rights, no one is in debt at all.

That's fine, as long as they also give up what they received as a result of such fraud.

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That's fine, as long as they also give up what they received as a result of such fraud.

Because of the way the fraud is performed, there is absolutely no need for that.

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That all sounds lovely, except the Irish can then kiss goodbye to functioning mortgage Market for the next twenty years. What bank would lend at more than 50% LTV when their loan books can vanish in a puff of retrospective legislation. It's a sign of how much the economy on both sides of the Irish sea has been consumed by the house price moloch that mortgage debt, once some of the safest of all, is as risky to lenders as 40% APR credit cards.

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I'm going to regret this, but 'huh?'

The debtors didn't promise the sellers of homes anything, the banks did.

They thought they could make those promises good by lying to the buyers to get them into debt.

In effect, sellers of homes have swapped their houses for magic beans. While this is foolish, that's no reason to force those who were defrauded at the other end to have to act as if the debts are valid because they are not. Nor does it entitle them to their houses back either.

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FFS!!! I'm getting feckin close to giving up on a fiscally responsible lifestyle and be as well just join the IndebtedBailed OutAtEveryTurnWithTheResponsiblesMoney brigade.Do these fekin eejits not realise that debt forgiveness also means creditors punishment-no moral hazard there nor lesson to be learnt by the solvent!!!!

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FFS!!! I'm getting feckin close to giving up on a fiscally responsible lifestyle and be as well just join the IndebtedBailed OutAtEveryTurnWithTheResponsiblesMoney brigade.Do these fekin eejits not realise that debt forgiveness also means creditors punishment-no moral hazard there nor lesson to be learnt by the solvent!!!!

Pro tip - don't give banksters your money then moan they cause credit bubbles and you lose your shirt.

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Pro tip - don't give banksters your money then moan they cause credit bubbles and you lose your shirt.

I wish I could work out how to put you on ignore but as I can't, just because you don't agree with the rules of football doesn't mean you won't be sent off for a foul.

And what is it with the assumptions you make of others? You know where my assets lie-yes?

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I wish I could work out how to put you on ignore but as I can't, just because you don't agree with the rules of football doesn't mean you won't be sent off for a foul.

And what is it with the assumptions you make of others? You know where my assets lie-yes?

The only way "the solvent" get punished in a debt forgiveness is if they have cash in a bank.

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FFS!!! I'm getting feckin close to giving up on a fiscally responsible lifestyle and be as well just join the IndebtedBailed OutAtEveryTurnWithTheResponsiblesMoney brigade.Do these fekin eejits not realise that debt forgiveness also means creditors punishment-no moral hazard there nor lesson to be learnt by the solvent!!!!

That's exactly the reaction they're looking for.

There will be no debt forgiveness in Ireland, but talk of it encourages the prudent to abandon their reservations.

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The only way "the solvent" get punished in a debt forgiveness is if they have cash in a bank.

What, you don't think the hyperinflationary consequences might be a problem for day to day living? As far as your bold statements re the nature of money, fiat and fractional reserve are the rules that we have to play by. They in and of themselves are not the problem (although other systems may be better that is neither here nor there) rather one team has the referee in its pocket and does not need to adhere to the rules of the game.

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I'll leave the rest for y'all to grind your teeth over... :)

Expect an invoice from my dentist shortly.

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The problem with advocating debtors prisons as a solution to these issues is pretty simple - all the debts were racked up using fraud and should be cancelled.

I think this is the big, moral issue. Most people - who don't read HPC or are not politically aware - simply got on the perceived 'ladder' under the prevailing conditions at the going rates . . . as no doubt did their parents.

The majority did not set out to fuel a property ponzi, make predatory liar loans, nor were even capable of overdeveloping and 'bubbling for bonuses'.

Some kind of debt forgiveness has to be given to unwind the current situation. As noted in Spain, thousands of empty homes, plus thousands of newly-made-homeless people in debt, doesn't make for any kind of functioning society.

Since the banks have been well compensated for their write downs, it's only fair to show the same consideration to the other side of the balance sheet.

If housing is allowed to return to affordable, pre-Ponzi norms, then the non-feckless should have no grievance.

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I think this is the big, moral issue. Most people - who don't read HPC or are not politically aware - simply got on the perceived 'ladder' under the prevailing conditions at the going rates . . . as no doubt did their parents.

The majority did not set out to fuel a property ponzi, make predatory liar loans, nor were even capable of overdeveloping and 'bubbling for bonuses'.

Some kind of debt forgiveness has to be given to unwind the current situation. As noted in Spain, thousands of empty homes, plus thousands of newly-made-homeless people in debt, doesn't make for any kind of functioning society.

Since the banks have been well compensated for their write downs, it's only fair to show the same consideration to the other side of the balance sheet.

If housing is allowed to return to affordable, pre-Ponzi norms, then the non-feckless should have no grievance.

THeres the thing, right there.

The feckless are actually the savers, those cretins who have been giving banksters money hand over fist for them to leverage to the moon and back. Prudent is defined by the wise by result, not by symbology.

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"whose who bought in the boom are victims, not fools

Does that go for any boom?

I lost a few hundred quid in shares at the turn of the century.

I may have even overpaid for a television once.

Ahh, thats right, Home'owners' are a special case.

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That's fine, as long as they also give up what they received as a result of such fraud.

+1

although some on here seem to think 2 wrongs (or mutual wrongs) equals a right, but neither side in a wrongdoing should end up a winner, story end of

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The debtors didn't promise the sellers of homes anything, the banks did.

They thought they could make those promises good by lying to the buyers to get them into debt.

In effect, sellers of homes have swapped their houses for magic beans. While this is foolish, that's no reason to force those who were defrauded at the other end to have to act as if the debts are valid because they are not. Nor does it entitle them to their houses back either.

This is all very well but the people with the guns and big sticks have allied themselves with the people lending the money..........

Try and get a widespread repayment strike/campaign civil disobedience thing going and you would be in the clink quicker than an aggressive shopper in Tottenham High Road.......

I have no doubt whatsoever that if such points of view were ever to become popular and enter the mainstream then those at the head of such movements would be removed very quickly and very quietly...

We have seen in the last few weeks how vindictive the State can be when the very fabric of its power is in the least threatened....

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Debt forgiveness is all well and good but no lessons are being learnt. Resetting the system is pointless if the same old racket is simply going to start back up again with a different selection of players. Housing needs to stop being an investment full stop and any gains made from it taxed at 100%. Trouble is off course most countries don't actually have a real functioning economy and most of the wealth is coming from running ponzi schemes such as housing, take that away and they're screwed.

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Pro tip - don't give banksters your money then moan they cause credit bubbles and you lose your shirt.

PMSL +1

They are going to keep this merry go round go on for years until they have sucked all the wealth from us, anyone with savings is

going to get taken out slowly, if you've got cash savings spend it, stop paying into their pension schemes get out, if your under 40 and think their going to payout when your what..70, 72, maybe 75. This is not going to go totally tits up overnight. Get your savings out of their system.

Usual caveat.

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Some people on this thread do not seem to know that 99% of jobs in this country require you to have a bank account in place in order to be paid.

Now of course - perhaps all this money should be immediately taken out and deposited elsewhere outside the system ? However it is all made very difficult for everyone to do. And it does enter the system anyway - no matter how fast you can remove it. Perhaps this is all part of the design ?

However let us not pretend we can all just remove the banks from the equation and everything will be ok. That is a rather naive assumption IMO.

And no - I don't have another solution.

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  • 334 Brexit, House prices and Summer 2020

    1. 1. Including the effects Brexit, where do you think average UK house prices will be relative to now in June 2020?


      • down 5% +
      • down 2.5%
      • Even
      • up 2.5%
      • up 5%



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