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My Recent Business Trip To China


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The same threat the bankers employed to extort their bailout interestingly enough.

Of that 70K how much is going to a BTL landlord I wonder?- probably most of it.

But you misunderstand my point- I don't disagree that the lives these people lead are shite and I don't disagree that trying to alter that situation is a good thing. But pretending that we can somehow 'reform' the benefits system in isolation from the wider economic reality is just a fig leaf for chav bashing- it changes nothing except to increase the likelyhood of further alienation.

Humans are an adaptable species and it's correct to point out that a lot of people have 'adapted' to a life on benefits. Now you come along with your 70k bill, shove it under their noses and say ' You can't expect me to keep on paying this for ever' which is a fair point, but what happens next? Do you cut them off,is that going to work? Do you offer them a job- are there any they can do? What about training- is there any?

Talking about 'reforming' the benefits system without having a viable alternative to offer is pointless- all this achieves is to stir up a latent resentment, creating more, not less, problems.

The truth is we have pissed all over these people- flooded their areas with east europeans, offshored their jobs, made them the butt of every grotesque form of mockery and contempt- we even have a special name for them-'chavs'.

And then we sit around scratching our backsides and asking 'why are these people so alienated and hostile?" :lol:

Great post.

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One thing that blew me away was the 5 star Chimelong Hotel http://www.chimelonghotelguangzhou.com/index.htm , it had a zoo, theme park, shopping centre and an enclosure of rare white tigers inside the hotel next to the 5 star restaurant.

The most expensive room was £8000 a night.

There's a reason that enclosure was near the restaurant.

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Except when told that he will have to work a 11 hours day and 7 days a week (with 3 days off in a month), and live in the domitory then he will perhaps say "I may as well go on the dole.".

Is that how German workers live?

It is possible to compete with the Chinese without mimicking them.

Of course it does require an educated, efficient, highly motivated workforce.

1247127613.jpg

p4pb4298739.jpg

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Is that how German workers live?

It is possible to compete with the Chinese without mimicking them.

Of course it does require an educated, efficient, highly motivated workforce.

1247127613.jpg

p4pb4298739.jpg

I love the bottom photo.

Just about sums up this country and where we're heading

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If the UK focussed all it's workforce in supplying the basics, food, water shelter, energy etc, the cost of living would come down and we'd be a much happier country and probably debt free. We can cut out all the public sector red tape, regulations, media, IT, sending everyone to university, etc.

Sure the country would be a much simpler place to live (sorry no free WIFI at coffee bars), and we'd all be sitting at each other's homes playing cards rather than going out late night shopping.

It won't happen because scarcity = profit (scarcity in the basics), and debt is the bankers asset (and the bankers are king). The UK recovery back to the boomer generation benchmark level - It won't happen in my lifetime.

Edited by Money Spinner
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Is that how German workers live?

It is possible to compete with the Chinese without mimicking them.

Of course it does require an educated, efficient, highly motivated workforce.

But it will be possible for the Chinese to compete with the Germany by mimicking the German, and then work twice as hard.

German workers are pretty decipline, for example, VW worker were only allowed to go to the loo at very specific time to ensure the production line runs at full efficiency.

Think the Chinese BYD is going to be interesting.

Even the Germany knows that when they export to China, they are creating a new competitors (as Chinese always demand transfer of technology).

There are going to be few things that the German can make that the Chinese cannot make at half the price in a decade or so.

Edited by easybetman
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The same threat the bankers employed to extort their bailout interestingly enough.

Of that 70K how much is going to a BTL landlord I wonder?- probably most of it.

But you misunderstand my point- I don't disagree that the lives these people lead are shite and I don't disagree that trying to alter that situation is a good thing. But pretending that we can somehow 'reform' the benefits system in isolation from the wider economic reality is just a fig leaf for chav bashing- it changes nothing except to increase the likelyhood of further alienation.

Humans are an adaptable species and it's correct to point out that a lot of people have 'adapted' to a life on benefits. Now you come along with your 70k bill, shove it under their noses and say ' You can't expect me to keep on paying this for ever' which is a fair point, but what happens next? Do you cut them off,is that going to work? Do you offer them a job- are there any they can do? What about training- is there any?

Talking about 'reforming' the benefits system without having a viable alternative to offer is pointless- all this achieves is to stir up a latent resentment, creating more, not less, problems.

The truth is we have pissed all over these people- flooded their areas with east europeans, offshored their jobs, made them the butt of every grotesque form of mockery and contempt- we even have a special name for them-'chavs'.

And then we sit around scratching our backsides and asking 'why are these people so alienated and hostile?" :lol:

I used to get outraged at some of the daft welfare deals I occasionally come across. To people who live in the world of reward for effort it is completely alien. But it makes sense to me now because I see it is a form of Keynesian stimulus in order to juice the GDP figures.

For example, a couple of weeks ago a White House spokesman stated that increasing unemployment benefits will create jobs. The logic is the money that you ply poor people with will instantly make its way back into the economy and businesses will expand proportionately and begin hiring. It makes perfect sense, but only if you consider GDP figures as a legitimate measure of economic activity.

Whenever people complain about excessive welfare on this forum, others always object that the bankers got away with even worse. True, but they are two sides of the same coin. The people who brought us the bail out are the same people who have been pumping debt, state employment and welfare.

It's all in pursuit of an economic ideology. The problem is essentially political, and it can only really be solved by the squeezed middle.

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Personally I can live with Britains muddled governance or its lack of ruthless business efficiency as these have long been a feature of our national life. What I find depressing is the way our innovative capacity and our skill at improvisation have been eroded by a culture of top down process driven micro managed mediocrity imposed from the top. It is this stifling crushing of the human spirit at every level which makes the UK such a bummer to live in at the moment.

Edited by stormymonday_2011
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Yes you did, you were asked indirectly...

All those cheap things in shops, you didn't have to buy them you could have bought elsewhere instead. You know like the Koreans and Japanese do. Japanese resisted non Japanese rice for nearly two decades, such that they couldn't give the stuff away. Koreans don't touch anything made in Japan. Japanese never buy anything made by Koreans.

French people drive french cars. Germans German cars.

But nope you kept on buying them therefore you voted for it alright.

I don't buy that argument- it's like saying that kids who eat junk food today are signing up to a heart attack 50 years later- when in reality they don't have the knowledge or information to make an informed decision.

With the honourable exception of James Goldsmith I can't think of a single political figure even to this day who was or is prepared to question the globalisation orthodoxy- it was and is presented as always a good thing- the downside is never mentioned.

Goldsmith predicted that the uncontrolled capital flows and wage/ regulatory arbitrage represented by the laissez-faire model of globalisation would destroy our societies- that it would only benefit the rich at the expense of everyone else- and we are now living in the world he predicted- mass unemployment that is permanent and a gradual erosion of living standards and personal liberties that we once took for granted.

Embedded in the 'reform the benefits' agenda is a deeper understanding- that the future for the majority is one of working longer and longer for less and less in a more impoverished environment- and the removal of alternatives to this outcome is the first step in inducting the masses into their new role as surfs in the brave new world of the super rich.

The benefits system, perversely, represents the last line of defence the people we call 'chavs' possess against total exploitation by the pigmen in their quest for ever greater profits- Which is why it must be 'reformed'- not to help those trapped within it, but to allow the collapse of living standards deemed necessary by the millionaires and billionaires who run the planet.

And before anyone cheers too loudly at the ultimate routing of the chavs it's worth bearing in mind that when a structure collapses at the bottom, the levels above are very likely to eventually follow them down.

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And before anyone cheers too loudly at the ultimate routing of the chavs it's worth bearing in mind that when a structure collapses at the bottom, the levels above are very likely to eventually follow them down.

Then its hunting time, like the film Hard Target but with so many more targets ;):P

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I think this is what concerns me more than anything and possibly led me to feel the way I did about my trip. We all sit here on our high horses and go on about China's media being controlled, but sometimes I do wonder about ours.

I travel extensively with work all over the world and I can't really explain why I ended up feeling why I did. I've been to many far flung and backwards places but this was just a real eye opener. Maybe deep down the decline of this country is affecting me more than I think it is (my Canadian GF does go on about it everyday as well :rolleyes: )

Hah hah. Try getting ill in china, you know, too sick to work. Check out the marvelous social security system that will stop you starving to death (or not….).

Then, once you have done that, try getting old and retiring in China. See how the bountiful state keeps you healthy by ensuring you do not put on weight.

Your post is a joke. Not sure if you realise how nasty the average person’s life is in china but if you think you understand the place you are sorely mistaken.

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Hah hah. Try getting ill in china, you know, too sick to work. Check out the marvelous social security system that will stop you starving to death (or not….).

Yes, JSA sort of exists in China, there are restrictions though, in that you have to move back to the place you were born. It isn't a huge amount but enough to live on. Its been this way for about 8 or 9 years now.

Secondly health care was socialised about 7 years ago. A national standardised health scheme which costs a token amount (it was something low like $40 or $50 US) allows you to have your health care costs paid.... if you decide to go to the Uber Bupa hospital the state only pays upto 50% of your bill. If you go to a local clinic = state covers it. If you go to a middle of the road hospital 75% is paid for.

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Want to know why the Chinese are on the ascend and the UK is sinking below the waves? Compare and contrast the leadership education and experience:

  • Hu Jintao Education: Qinghua University, hydraulic engineering.
  • Wu Bangguo Education: Electrical engineering, Tsinghua University.
  • Wen Jiabao Education: Beijing Institute of Geology
  • Jia Qinglin Education: Hebei University of Technology. Engineering/heavy industry
  • Li Changchun Education: Electrical Engineering degree from Harbin University.
  • David Cameron Education: Philosophy, Politics and Economics
  • George Osborne Education: Degree in Modern History
  • Nick Clegg Education “studied” social anthropology
  • William Hauge Education: Philosophy, Politics and Economics

Basically the UK has an introspective elite who study themselves whilst the Chinese a led by people who know how to actually build & create things.

Ironically, it appears that Liam Fox UK is the only one who has done anything useful, and he is put in charge on the Ministry of Shooting Brown People.

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If the UK focussed all it's workforce in supplying the basics, food, water shelter, energy etc, the cost of living would come down and we'd be a much happier country and probably debt free. We can cut out all the public sector red tape, regulations, media, IT, sending everyone to university, etc.

Sure the country would be a much simpler place to live (sorry no free WIFI at coffee bars), and we'd all be sitting at each other's homes playing cards rather than going out late night shopping.

It won't happen because scarcity = profit (scarcity in the basics), and debt is the bankers asset (and the bankers are king). The UK recovery back to the boomer generation benchmark level - It won't happen in my lifetime.

It would be much better if things could be like that again.... there are other safe countries that live the simple life where the leaders and those in control care as much for their subjects and their well being as they do for themselves ....what has gone wrong is the PTB have been allowed to get away with a little theft, this has encouraged them to try and get away with a bit more, until it has got to the stage where the amount of free personal gains and perks becomes all part of the job, the dishonest are then looked up to so more have aspired to be like them.....take an inch then want a mile. :(

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If the UK focussed all it's workforce in supplying the basics, food, water shelter, energy etc, the cost of living would come down and we'd be a much happier country and probably debt free. We can cut out all the public sector red tape, regulations, media, IT, sending everyone to university, etc.

Sure the country would be a much simpler place to live (sorry no free WIFI at coffee bars), and we'd all be sitting at each other's homes playing cards rather than going out late night shopping.

It won't happen because scarcity = profit (scarcity in the basics), and debt is the bankers asset (and the bankers are king). The UK recovery back to the boomer generation benchmark level - It won't happen in my lifetime.

The society you describe fits 1950s Britain when surprisingly people seemed to have more capacity to enjoy themselves spontaneously than now. The ad hoc family parties I attended as a child knock spots of any of the vastly more lavish and formal bun fights I have been to in recent decades.

Edited by stormymonday_2011
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The society you describe fits 1950s Britain when surprisingly people seemed to have more capacity to enjoy themselves spontaneously than now. The ad hoc family parties I attended as a child knock spots of any of the vastly more lavish and formal bun fights I have been to in recent decades.

:lol: as a child I was excited and happy to get a pencil and a rubber in the pass the parcel present at a school friends birthday party....not now, it seems to have generated into a competition between the mothers on who can spend the most and offer the most lavish party for their baby......I will spare you the details of what now goes in the take home party bag. ;)

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I like the post for it's integrity, but I'll say in my travels, I stopped comparing the various economic and social differences between countries.

You can't really compare social standards due to historical facts, ie you can't change people, history makes our entire social structure where-as in China, history means nothing. Shit, I'm observing again...

Great post though mate

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  • David Cameron Education: Philosophy, Politics and Economics 1st class honours from Oxford.

  • George Osborne Education: Degree in Modern History from University of Oxford

  • Nick Clegg Education “studied” social anthropology at Cambridge University followed by Masters degrees at the University of Minnesota and the College of Europe

  • William Hague Education: Philosophy, Politics and Economics 1st class honours, Oxford

At least be consistent. You listed the Chinese leader's universities but not ours - why?

I agree we need more engineers and scientists (as one myself) in leadership positions but have a horrible feeling it's all a bit too late to make any constructive changes...

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Ken,

In view of the David Li thread (David being chinese) and you being a Risk Engineer I thought you might appreciate this nugget:

From Jurassic Park:

JurassicPark125.jpeg

MALCOLM

Don't you see the danger, John, inherent in what you're

doing here? Genetic power is the most awesome force

ever seen on this planet. But you wield it like a kid

who's found his dad's gun.

GENNARO

If I may.... It is hardly appropriate

to start hurling

Excuse me, excuse me I'll tell you.

MALCOLM (cont'd)

The problem with scientific power you've used is it

didn't require any discipline to attain it. You read

what others had done and you took the next step. You

didn't earn the knowledge yourselves, so you don't take

the responsibility for it. You stood on the shoulders

of geniuses to accomplish something as fast as you

could, and before you knew what you had, you patented

it, packages it, slapped in on a plastic lunch box, and

now you want to sell it.

HAMMOND

You don't give us our due credit. Our scientists have

done things no one could ever do before.

MALCOLM

Your scientists were so preoccupied with whether or not

they could that they didn't stop to think if they

should. Science can create pesticides, but it can't

tell us not to use them. Science can make a nuclear

reactor, but it can't tell us not to build it!

HAMMOND

But this is nature! Why not give an extinct species a

second chance?! I mean, Condors. Condors are on the

verge of extinction - - if I'd created a flock of them

on the island, you wouldn't be saying any of this!

(or)

have anything to say at all!

MALCOLM

Hold on - - this is no species that was obliterated by

deforestation or the building of a dam. Dinosaurs had

their shot. Nature selected them for extinction.

HAMMOND

I don't understand this Luddite attitude, especially

from a scientist. How could we stand in the light of

discovery and not act?

MALCOLM

What's so great about discovery? It's a violent,

penetrative act that scars what it explores. What you

call discovery I call the rape of the natural world!

Edited by nmarks
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In view of the David Li thread (David being chinese) and you being a Risk Engineer I thought you might appreciate this nugget:

The worst thing about Jurassic Park was that Jeff Goldblum didn't get eaten.

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Interesting post but way too pessimistic

Actually outlook for UK is quite positive. You are right to identify that UK cannot and will not catchup with china in mass manufacturing but we have a number of key strengths that other European countries do not. We are especially strong in business and financial services which is much wider than just banking - think asset management, insurance, accounting, legal services, tax services, architecture, strategy consulting, m&a advisory, project finance, film finance, currency exchange etc etc - we are leading players in all of the above. Also we are very strong in the creative industries - film, TV, advertising, branding, marketing, PR, publishing, design, fashion, computer games, etc and finally we have some huge strengths in engineering - think Rolls Royce, Aston Martin, BAe systems, UK Space industry, F1, jaguar land rover , ARM, Autonomy etc I also think we have potential strength in Education but probably don't exploit it enough - think of the global brand power of Oxbridge, Eton, Harrow etc.

These high end services and industries are exactly the type for which there will be increasingly in demand as the world economy gets more global and richer and where we can maintain sustainable advantage that's not just based on cost. Making cheap shoes or coal mining or basic shipbuilding will always go to where labor is cheapest so we would be mad to try and compete in those industries.

The main problem is that these industries can usefully employ about 15% of the population and only need highly educated, numerate people - mass education in this country is an incredibly low standard covered up by decades of grade inflation. In my view that's the biggest problem we need to fix as a nation.

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Interesting post but way too pessimistic

Actually outlook for UK is quite positive. You are right to identify that UK cannot and will not catchup with china in mass manufacturing but we have a number of key strengths that other European countries do not. We are especially strong in business and financial services which is much wider than just banking - think asset management, insurance, accounting, legal services, tax services, architecture, strategy consulting, m&a advisory, project finance, film finance, currency exchange etc etc - we are leading players in all of the above. Also we are very strong in the creative industries - film, TV, advertising, branding, marketing, PR, publishing, design, fashion, computer games, etc and finally we have some huge strengths in engineering - think Rolls Royce, Aston Martin, BAe systems, UK Space industry, F1, jaguar land rover , ARM, Autonomy etc I also think we have potential strength in Education but probably don't exploit it enough - think of the global brand power of Oxbridge, Eton, Harrow etc.

These high end services and industries are exactly the type for which there will be increasingly in demand as the world economy gets more global and richer and where we can maintain sustainable advantage that's not just based on cost. Making cheap shoes or coal mining or basic shipbuilding will always go to where labor is cheapest so we would be mad to try and compete in those industries.

The main problem is that these industries can usefully employ about 15% of the population and only need highly educated, numerate people - mass education in this country is an incredibly low standard covered up by decades of grade inflation. In my view that's the biggest problem we need to fix as a nation.

Shhh, your not allowed to go against the HPC group think view that wealth can only be produced by people toiling away in factories making things out of stuff dug up from the ground ;)

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  • 440 Brexit, House prices and Summer 2020

    1. 1. Including the effects Brexit, where do you think average UK house prices will be relative to now in June 2020?


      • down 5% +
      • down 2.5%
      • Even
      • up 2.5%
      • up 5%



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