Jump to content
House Price Crash Forum

More Companies To Hire Migrant Workers Than School Leavers


 Share

Recommended Posts

Tbh, I'm finding the mass generalization of people on the dole and/or school leavers by some as 'lazy or fag smoking, cider drinking louts' insulting.

I think that there is a lot of generalisation going on in this thread, too.

"All doleys are lazy"

"There's no hope of ever finding a job"

etc...

The reality out there is more subtle.

There are people who are bone idle lazy.

There are people who will work for pennies, because they are proud/naive/enjoy their jobs.

There are people who have figured out that it's in their financial interest to avoid work.

There are people who cannot find a job for love nor money.

As a parting thought: youth unemployment in Spain is now around 50% (hence the indignados). I can't believe that 50% of Spaniards are bone-idle; that's just daft. The reality is more as Formerly Unemployed Youth presented it: we (the population of the 1st world) don't need to work 40h a week to meet our basic needs. So if part of the population is working 40h, then another part will never work, no matter how hard they might wish to.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Replies 118
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

I just asked because I'm trying to start something with exactly that amount of capital (and it's not a trifling amount of money by any means). Everything that I need costs three figures. You don't have many of those to go at before the cash runs dry.

Good luck. And yes of course it will go pretty fast if not successful. May as well try though. Why not.

The travelling points made in this post does have it's merits - as I was about 2 weeks away from booking a flight out of Europe to go travelling as I spent nearly a year looking for a job and putting aside what I could from my dole money to put towards potential ideas/plans. Thankfully I got a call just as I was ready to pack it all in.

But some of you with your posts seem like your in cloud cuckoo/perfect land. I see some posters on one thread on here saying why move to Australia and the likes and leave the one thing you've got here (support network) then when it comes to struggling to find a job you're advocating going all gung-ho and leaving that one thing in your life.

Yep. Because when you do this you find you NEED a job. And you are in a different country and you dont have that support network so you go to further lengths than you would normally do. Trust me. Been there, done that. And so have numeorus other people I know.

I think you may be making a good point about many people though. Don't want to go to another country as I will lose my 'support network'. Maybe that is one of these people's problems ? Can't they survive with that support ? They are in competition for jobs and the like with others who can. Just who is likely to 'win' ?

When I first started work several years ago before the recession even hit I was struggling for a job - any job, on the occasions I got through to an interview I lost out due to 'lack of experience'

When I applied for manual work - basic grungy work but better than nothing - I didn't even get to interview stage for these due to being 'over qualified'. (Although being a bit wiser in the world I'll remove all my qualifications from my CV should I ever have to apply for these again.) Eventually I did land a job, minimal pay topped up by the tax man till I got that 'experience' then sacked them off and stepped up the ladder. But the start of it all? Soul destroying.

And the Mr Pole argument is flawed - whoever put that nugget out earlier, that £10,000 spending power when translated back to Poland is huge but we'll ignore that because it happens to be convenient to forget that.

Tbh, I'm finding the mass generalization of people on the dole and/or school leavers by some as 'lazy or fag smoking, cider drinking louts' insulting.

Myself and others are just saying lots of people fall into this category today. Not all - but possibly more than ever. Down to many a reason. Main ones probably being the 'I'm worth it culture' and the benefits culture.

Watch any of the numerous documentaries trying to get young 'hopeless' people into work - and it is all laid out bare for all to see.

Some do well and they just needed a helping hand. Some are complete wastes of space and may as well be put down. There are a LOT in the second category, and I imagine anyone working in a job/benefits centre would agree.

If anyone sees this differently to me they must live in a different country. IMO anyway.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The travelling points made in this post does have it's merits - as I was about 2 weeks away from booking a flight out of Europe to go travelling as I spent nearly a year looking for a job and putting aside what I could from my dole money to put towards potential ideas/plans. Thankfully I got a call just as I was ready to pack it all in.

But some of you with your posts seem like your in cloud cuckoo/perfect land. I see some posters on one thread on here saying why move to Australia and the likes and leave the one thing you've got here (support network) then when it comes to struggling to find a job you're advocating going all gung-ho and leaving that one thing in your life.

When I first started work several years ago before the recession even hit I was struggling for a job - any job, on the occasions I got through to an interview I lost out due to 'lack of experience'

When I applied for manual work - basic grungy work but better than nothing - I didn't even get to interview stage for these due to being 'over qualified'. (Although being a bit wiser in the world I'll remove all my qualifications from my CV should I ever have to apply for these again.) Eventually I did land a job, minimal pay topped up by the tax man till I got that 'experience' then sacked them off and stepped up the ladder. But the start of it all? Soul destroying.

And the Mr Pole argument is flawed - whoever put that nugget out earlier, that £10,000 spending power when translated back to Poland is huge but we'll ignore that because it happens to be convenient to forget that.

Tbh, I'm finding the mass generalization of people on the dole and/or school leavers by some as 'lazy or fag smoking, cider drinking louts' insulting.

Its because they are part of the neo-liberal ultra-right globalization crowd. They simply cannot accept that these negative consequences arise from their world-view. So they block it out and find some excuse - it can't be their world-view that is the cause it has to be something else - such as the vast majority of our youth are lazy. It'd be nice if they could overcome their pre-conceived ideological bias but i doubt they will ever accept that it is not laziness, they are too bound up in their world view to do otherwise.

For example lets look at the spending uk vs poland spending power example. Its simple basic unarguable economics that if a job effectively provides 3K discretionary spending to one individual and 12K to another, then the 12K individual will be massively more motivated to seek out and work in that job. Yet laughably we have people such as ccc and mp123 saying that the 3K individual has to be lazy, it can't be due to the relative incentives each receives. What astounds me even more is that both ccc and mp123 seem to have some understanding of economics, and thus of incentives, and yet seem incapable of applying it to the immigrant vs uk worker scenario. To the extent that mp123 tells us to 'forget about purchasing power parity' as if economic incentives don't matter - which is just laughable. Mp123 if they don't matter then perhaps you could voluntarily give away your wealth/income until your living on the breadline, because well it doesn't matter does it? Though strangely enough i'm expecting mp123 to be very reluctant to part with his wealth/income, even though of course, it doesn't matter.

Edited by alexw
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Its because they are part of the neo-liberal ultra-right globalization crowd. They simply cannot accept that these negative consequences arise from their world-view. So they block it out and find some excuse - it can't be their world-view that is the cause it has to be something else - such as the vast majority of our youth are lazy. It'd be nice if they could overcome their pre-conceived ideological bias but i doubt they will ever accept that it is not laziness, they are too bound up in their world view to do otherwise.

For example lets look at the spending uk vs poland spending power example. Its simple basic unarguable economics that if a job effectively provides 3K discretionary spending to one individual and 12K to another, then the 12K individual will be massively more motivated to seek out and work in that job. Yet laughably we have people such as ccc and mp123 saying that the 3K individual has to be lazy, it can't be due to the relative incentives each receives. What astounds me even more is that both ccc and mp123 seem to have some understanding of economics, and thus of incentives, and yet seem incapable of applying it to the immigrant vs uk worker scenario. To the extent that mp123 tells us to 'forget about purchasing power parity' as if economic incentives don't matter - which is just laughable. Mp123 if they don't matter then perhaps you could voluntarily give away your wealth/income until your living on the breadline, because well it doesn't matter does it? Though strangely enough i'm expecting mp123 to be very reluctant to part with his wealth/income, even though of course, it doesn't matter.

The really funny part is that the core idea of neo liberal economics is self interest- yet these are the very people most often whining about the reluctance of the poor to take a job when it's not in their self interest to do so

Why- speaking from a neo liberal perspective- would they do that? :lol:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Its because they are part of the neo-liberal ultra-right globalization crowd. They simply cannot accept that these negative consequences arise from their world-view. So they block it out and find some excuse - it can't be their world-view that is the cause it has to be something else - such as the vast majority of our youth are lazy. It'd be nice if they could overcome their pre-conceived ideological bias but i doubt they will ever accept that it is not laziness, they are too bound up in their world view to do otherwise.

For example lets look at the spending uk vs poland spending power example. Its simple basic unarguable economics that if a job effectively provides 3K discretionary spending to one individual and 12K to another, then the 12K individual will be massively more motivated to seek out and work in that job. Yet laughably we have people such as ccc and mp123 saying that the 3K individual has to be lazy, it can't be due to the relative incentives each receives. What astounds me even more is that both ccc and mp123 seem to have some understanding of economics, and thus of incentives, and yet seem incapable of applying it to the immigrant vs uk worker scenario. To the extent that mp123 tells us to 'forget about purchasing power parity' as if economic incentives don't matter - which is just laughable. Mp123 if they don't matter then perhaps you could voluntarily give away your wealth/income until your living on the breadline, because well it doesn't matter does it? Though strangely enough i'm expecting mp123 to be very reluctant to part with his wealth/income, even though of course, it doesn't matter.

Not me. I realise there are seriously ******ed up things going on on the World today. However that doesn't mean that 20 year old Dave from Bolton has ZERO opportunities. Because he does.

That is all I am saying. Some people seem to take issue with that. I just do not understand why.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Its because they are part of the neo-liberal ultra-right globalization crowd. They simply cannot accept that these negative consequences arise from their world-view. So they block it out and find some excuse - it can't be their world-view that is the cause it has to be something else - such as the vast majority of our youth are lazy. It'd be nice if they could overcome their pre-conceived ideological bias but i doubt they will ever accept that it is not laziness, they are too bound up in their world view to do otherwise.

For example lets look at the spending uk vs poland spending power example. Its simple basic unarguable economics that if a job effectively provides 3K discretionary spending to one individual and 12K to another, then the 12K individual will be massively more motivated to seek out and work in that job. Yet laughably we have people such as ccc and mp123 saying that the 3K individual has to be lazy, it can't be due to the relative incentives each receives. What astounds me even more is that both ccc and mp123 seem to have some understanding of economics, and thus of incentives, and yet seem incapable of applying it to the immigrant vs uk worker scenario. To the extent that mp123 tells us to 'forget about purchasing power parity' as if economic incentives don't matter - which is just laughable. Mp123 if they don't matter then perhaps you could voluntarily give away your wealth/income until your living on the breadline, because well it doesn't matter does it? Though strangely enough i'm expecting mp123 to be very reluctant to part with his wealth/income, even though of course, it doesn't matter.

many of you are missing the point. whatever job you do, you have little excuse to put in a half assed effort into it.

were not talking about poles or whatever working like superman, were talking about people employing them because they do the job they are supposed to do. nothing more, nothing less.

you have a job to do. you do it properly.

if you dont like a job because of its pay - no problem. you can look for a job that has better pay , move on, no one is tying you down. but whilst youre employed what reason does anyone have for not doing what your supposed to do.

part of the problem is that doing nothing is a valid option. if your choice is to live on benefits, or work hard and only earn a tiny bit more - i can see why people wouldnt want to work - thats not in dispute.

but thats a totally seperate issue as to why companies hire migrant workers. companies employ people that will get the job done, it doesnt matter who it is. migrant or non migrant the company doesnt care. businesses are not social enterprises. its about competition.

Edited by mfp123
Link to comment
Share on other sites

many of you are missing the point. whatever job you do, you have little excuse to put in a half assed effort into it.

were not talking about poles or whatever working like superman, were talking about people employing them because they do the job they are supposed to do. nothing more, nothing less.

you have a job to do. you do it properly.

if you dont like a job because of its pay - no problem. you can look for a job that has better pay , move on, no one is tying you down. but whilst youre employed what reason does anyone have for not doing what your supposed to do.

part of the problem is that doing nothing is a valid option. if your choice is to live on benefits, or work hard and only earn a tiny bit more - i can see why people wouldnt want to work - thats not in dispute.

but thats a totally seperate issue as to why companies hire migrant workers. companies employ people that will get the job done, it doesnt matter who it is. migrant or non migrant the company doesnt care. businesses are not social enterprises. its about competition.

On the contrary, these issues are inextricably intertwined. One of the main reason migrant workers are hired in preference to "natives" is because they aren't eligible for benefits - as soon as the East Europeans realise that they can go on the dole and "earn" as much money, do you think that they will stick at their jobs? Do you think that their work ethic is that strong?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On the contrary, these issues are inextricably intertwined. One of the main reason migrant workers are hired in preference to "natives" is because they aren't eligible for benefits - as soon as the East Europeans realise that they can go on the dole and "earn" as much money, do you think that they will stick at their jobs? Do you think that their work ethic is that strong?

it does not matter why someones work ethic is strong, only that it is strong.

it is not the job of companies to create a standard of living for people, drive social care, sort out societies problems. jobs dont just "exist" and as though people have a right to do these job and a career plan mapped out for you. somehow, somewhere that job has been created. all a company wants is that job to get done. who, how, why, they dont care that much about it.

if someone says i come from a hard working background and im motivated to work hard, and another says i come for a more privileged background and am not motivated to work hard - the company will not "take into account" the situation of the 2nd person more than the first. they will employ whoever does the job best.

theyre not going to come round and say to the more privileged person, well youve had it easy and clearly its my responsibility manage your life and sort out your career path for you.

even in the interview stage people are trying to deduce how hard youre going to work, what drives you, how motivated you are etc.. but they are not social workers there to sort your life out for you, they are trying to work out who is best for the business. if youre not going to be motivated thats not their problem - they will choose someone who is motivated.

saying i have a good reason not to be motivated, or indeed less motivated as people are pointing out - but i still want the job, its not going to happen. companies dont care, they have a business to run.

Edited by mfp123
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Not me. I realise there are seriously ******ed up things going on on the World today. However that doesn't mean that 20 year old Dave from Bolton has ZERO opportunities. Because he does.

That is all I am saying. Some people seem to take issue with that. I just do not understand why.

He has opportunities. But he will have to be outstandingly motivated, cunning and manipulative to get by in a complex, dog-eat-dog, dynamic world. He will have to have high levels of confidence, determination, excellent natural human communication skills, have ample brain power and wit. He will have to compete with people from all over the world from Asia to America.

This is, of course what he needs if he wants to secure a well paid job (so he can afford to buy a house and raise a family).

Whereas back a few decades ago all he would have needed were a pair of hands.

On the contrary, these issues are inextricably intertwined. One of the main reason migrant workers are hired in preference to "natives" is because they aren't eligible for benefits - as soon as the East Europeans realise that they can go on the dole and "earn" as much money, do you think that they will stick at their jobs? Do you think that their work ethic is that strong?

Definitely- its work or starve for them. That would soon get the native Brits working.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

it does not matter why someones work ethic is strong, only that it is strong.

it is not the job of companies to create a standard of living for people, drive social care, sort out societies problems. jobs dont just "exist" and as though people have a right to do these job and a career plan mapped out for you. somehow, somewhere that job has been created. all a company wants is that job to get done. who, how, why, they dont care that much about it.

if someone says i come from a hard working background and im motivated to work hard, and another says i come for a more privileged background and am not motivated to work hard - the company will not "take into account" the situation of the 2nd person more than the first. they will employ whoever does the job best.

theyre not going to come round and say to the more privileged person, well youve had it easy and clearly its my responsibility manage your life and sort out your career path for you.

even in the interview stage people are trying to deduce how hard youre going to work, what drives you, how motivated you are etc.. but they are not social workers there to sort your life out for you, they are trying to work out who is best for the business. if youre not going to be motivated thats not their problem - they will choose someone who is motivated.

saying i have a good reason not to be motivated, or indeed less motivated as people are pointing out - but i still want the job, its not going to happen. companies dont care, they have a business to run.

I agree that businesses are behaving logically.

However, what is good for them individually, is bad for them collectively - while the Poles are busy picking vegetables/darning socks/cleaning toilets, the "natives" are sat at home, collecting benefit cheques that have to be paid... by taxing more heavily the companies!

There is a framework of law which defines the rules of the game that the company have to play by. In this case, the rules are leading to an undesirable outcome. It's not the companies' fault... it's the law that needs changing.

However, first there needs to be awareness that the current situation is not desirable, or indeed sustainable.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Yes- and saving most of their disposable income rather than spending their money on tat in the shops- and before you know it your job is gone as demand collapses. :lol:

That's your "tat" too! :huh:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I agree that businesses are behaving logically.

However, what is good for them individually, is bad for them collectively - while the Poles are busy picking vegetables/darning socks/cleaning toilets, the "natives" are sat at home, collecting benefit cheques that have to be paid... by taxing more heavily the companies!

There is a framework of law which defines the rules of the game that the company have to play by. In this case, the rules are leading to an undesirable outcome. It's not the companies' fault... it's the law that needs changing.

However, first there needs to be awareness that the current situation is not desirable, or indeed sustainable.

Agreed. One thing we must concede to though DL is the hypocrisy of globalisation. We can't complain (justifiably imo) about migrant workers and their unfair purchasing power on the one hand but watch TV on our Chinese 99" plasma on the other, while the 22 year old nubile Polish cleaner hoovers our floor. Personally I'd give up the latter two if it meant more fairness in working practices.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I often wonder what Winston Churchill a very militant Capitalist and a rampant anti Socialist would have made of this.

Not quoting verbatim but I remember a speech of his which he spoke about the responsibilities of Employers.

They should run their Companies to increase their profits year on year to reward their Shareholders.

Reward and pay their Employees a good living wage.

Increase their growth to create more Employment within their Companies.

If they fail in this they do not deserve to be Employers.

Well the rest is History. :D

Link to comment
Share on other sites

it does not matter why someones work ethic is strong, only that it is strong.

it is not the job of companies to create a standard of living for people, drive social care, sort out societies problems. jobs dont just "exist" and as though people have a right to do these job and a career plan mapped out for you. somehow, somewhere that job has been created. all a company wants is that job to get done. who, how, why, they dont care that much about it.

They inherit responsibility for the results when they have spent millions lobbying for the right to undertake the mass hiring of migrant labour. Via that lobbying they are a major source of the problem. All you hear s the bleating about skills shortages, for the last couple of decades many businesses have abdicated nearly all responsibility for training their staff, that is why when the job gets done so often in this country the job is done badly and the staff don't care much about it.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

He has opportunities. But he will have to be outstandingly motivated, cunning and manipulative to get by in a complex, dog-eat-dog, dynamic world. He will have to have high levels of confidence, determination, excellent natural human communication skills, have ample brain power and wit. He will have to compete with people from all over the world from Asia to America.

This is, of course what he needs if he wants to secure a well paid job (so he can afford to buy a house and raise a family).

Whereas back a few decades ago all he would have needed were a pair of hands.

Definitely- its work or starve for them. That would soon get the native Brits working.

No. Any monkey from the UK - and I include me in this equation - can save up a little cash and head off to another country to give something else a go.

You are looking at this too much from the point of view of buying a house and all. Why not just think about saving a bit of cash and having a laugh ?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

No. Any monkey from the UK - and I include me in this equation - can save up a little cash and head off to another country to give something else a go.

You are looking at this too much from the point of view of buying a house and all. Why not just think about saving a bit of cash and having a laugh ?

People have roots, they are tied to their families, communities and nation state.

Family ties and caring responsibilities are higher up the list of priority than achieving the highest wage you can.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

People have roots, they are tied to their families, communities and nation state.

Family ties and caring responsibilities are higher up the list of priority than achieving the highest wage you can.

well that is fine - however they must accept the consequences of this - many do not and expect everything to just work out for them - and when it doesnt ? They want to blame anything else but themselves

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...
 Share

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.





×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

We have placed cookies on your device to help make this website better. You can adjust your cookie settings, otherwise we'll assume you're okay to continue.