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I was back home visiting the folks recently and met a friend and one of his relatives in Leeds , his relative had just moved to the UK from North India and was a well spoken young guy, he had been brought over on a work visa sponsored by his company " Red Hot" which is a chain of large buffet restaurants run by Indians across the north of England, it seems his deal was to be paid 3 quid an hour to work as a drinks waiter for which they would organize his visa so he could only work for this company, he was actually very happy with the deal and works 80 hours a week and stays in a company dorm which he has to pay for out of his 3 quid ... What I could not understand is how does this company get these visas, when they open a restaurant apparently they bring in 50 unskilled staff from india to work for half the min wage, As far as I can tell being a drinks waiter is totally unskilled so why would the UK import people to do this sort of work ? This sort of work used to be the sort of work students or unqualified school leavers would do, although for min wage rather than less ... ???

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In 6 months' time the politicians will claim that the new riots have nothing to do with disaffected youths. Britain really is broken. Kids are supposedly passing exams in record numbers yet they are unemployable! It's insane.

Schools should introduce an A-level in Emigration Studies. It's about the only useful thing you can learn.

Why would anyone stay? If you are employable your wages will be stolen to pay for useless council employees, overpaid doctors, thieving politicians, the unemployed, the unemployable and boomer retirement. There is nothing to look forward to. If you do succeed for a few years it's likely your job will be outsourced or you will be restricted by some redtape. Private pensions will be raided again and the public pension will be unavailable to anyone leaving school now. The real austerity kicks in a decade from now. Cameron's idea of austerity is like a fluffy bunny compare to the real thing.

It's bizarre that most Britons aspire to buy overpriced houses in a country that is so clearly intent on self-destruction. It won't get better, so be kind to your kids and tell them to get the **** out, whilst they still can.

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The shortfall simply means that we can easily do everything that needs doing, and a fair chunk of extra stuff that doesn't but makes life more interesting. In a sensible world that would just mean that it could be spread a bit thinner so we all don't have to work as hard. Alas that this isn't a sensible world. Not having enough people to do all the work is the only thing that should be a problem.

I have an (admittedly hazy) memory from the 60s, when automation first started to get going, that there was a lot of earnest discussion from academics, pundits, Guardianistas etc about how, in the Brave New World everyone would only have to work about 20 hours a week. Much discussion about how they were going to fill their time, with a naive assumption that Culture (i.e. Art, museums, music, theatre etc) would have a major resurgence along with lots of happy community activities.

I think it was the management guru Charles Handy who much more accurately predicted that half the people would be paid twice as much for working three times as hard (I forget the precise ratio) and the rest would be left on the scrapheap.

Edited by cartimandua51
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The shortfall simply means that we can easily do everything that needs doing, and a fair chunk of extra stuff that doesn't but makes life more interesting. In a sensible world that would just mean that it could be spread a bit thinner so we all don't have to work as hard. Alas that this isn't a sensible world. Not having enough people to do all the work is the only thing that should be a problem.

Yep

if this was a sensible world we would not be making the current workforce work longer before they retire further retricting the chances of the young to get a job when they leave school. ;)

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if a bulgarian can save £10,000's of pounds a year like youre suggesting , by working hard and doing overtime, then a brit can also save £10,000's of pounds a year working hard and doing overtime. they may not be able to buy a house in the UK but its still a lot of money.

if the bulgarian could save enough money in a few years to buy a house in bulgaria, then the brit could save the same amount of money as well - thats not exactly being on the breadline - thats called working hard and saving your money rather than spending it all - just like many brits already do.

also migrant workers coming here are harder working - just like mirgrant brits going oversees will be harder working than the locals in the country which they go to.

Not if your central bank is hell bent on devaluing those savings - the bulgarian could work a minimal number of years in the knowledge that there will be a tangible benefit - putting up with lvign 10 to a house, on a farm in a caravan, in the factory itself in dorms. Not so the native. Say £30,000 could get the bulgarian enough money for a plot of land and a good lump of materials to build a house - it couldn't even buy a third of a plot in the UK. There is a lot of difference committing 10-15 years living and working in those conditions to 3-5 years, a whole world of difference.

Edited by OnlyMe
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I was back home visiting the folks recently and met a friend and one of his relatives in Leeds , his relative had just moved to the UK from North India and was a well spoken young guy, he had been brought over on a work visa sponsored by his company " Red Hot" which is a chain of large buffet restaurants run by Indians across the north of England, it seems his deal was to be paid 3 quid an hour to work as a drinks waiter for which they would organize his visa so he could only work for this company, he was actually very happy with the deal and works 80 hours a week and stays in a company dorm which he has to pay for out of his 3 quid ... What I could not understand is how does this company get these visas, when they open a restaurant apparently they bring in 50 unskilled staff from india to work for half the min wage, As far as I can tell being a drinks waiter is totally unskilled so why would the UK import people to do this sort of work ? This sort of work used to be the sort of work students or unqualified school leavers would do, although for min wage rather than less ... ???

The reason?

Your governemnt are lying to you.

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I do think there is some mileage in the 'lazy' Brit / hard working immigrant. Speaking to a group of 17/18 year olds a couple of days ago the enormous sense of entitlement and arrogance shone through. Basically they have been indoctrinated since birth that they are special, that they have rights with little responsibility, that a lifetime of nice houses and cars and a fancy job will come along (just as it did with their boomer parents) with very little effort needed on their part. All a bit sad really. One lad I know had specced up a new mini he fancied, knew all the bits he was going to add, cost was £25k! Didn't have a job mind and had only got three E's and a D in his A levels. Seems to spend more time on Facebook than revising.

Then on the other hand you have migrants coming in who are willing to do three part time jobs, live three to a room and live a relatively austere lifestyle.

A no-brainer really on who to employ.

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Why would anyone stay? If you are employable your wages will be stolen to pay for useless council employees, overpaid doctors, thieving politicians, the unemployed, the unemployable and boomer retirement.

This has been the plan all along. Going on the wage comparison threads and numbers being mentioned, there seems to be still plenty of people earning loads of taxable dosh to pay for it all.

This won't stop, and the tax paid by middle/high earners will get worse and worse until the inevitable happens and all the middle/high earners themselves are displaced from the workforce.

Only then will our esteemed leaders and their neolib economic lobbyists actually realise that they’ve dropped a huge b0ll0ck from the start.

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Here's the VI ******** test you can apply - if it were a skill issue we'd expect high numbers of immigrant workers from places like germany, sweden, netherlands, etc. Nations which are know for having highly skilled workforces. But then there is about bugger all evidence of this - i.e. it's ********.

Thus the ******** reasons the VI's spout is just to hide that they are deliberately choosing cheaper labour, and an attempt to con the people into believing otherwise.

+1

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if a bulgarian can save £10,000's of pounds a year like youre suggesting , by working hard and doing overtime, then a brit can also save £10,000's of pounds a year working hard and doing overtime. they may not be able to buy a house in the UK but its still a lot of money.

if the bulgarian could save enough money in a few years to buy a house in bulgaria, then the brit could save the same amount of money as well - thats not exactly being on the breadline - thats called working hard and saving your money rather than spending it all - just like many brits already do.

also migrant workers coming here are harder working - just like mirgrant brits going oversees will be harder working than the locals in the country which they go to.

That's the crux.

£10,000, £100,000, a million, it's all just bits of paper.

The only thing that matters is what you can do with it.

The point being that the Bulgarian can save enough money to buy a decent chunk of a house; the brit can't.

Guess who's going to be more motivated to go to work in the morning?

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Yep

if this was a sensible world we would not be making the current workforce work longer before they retire further retricting the chances of the young to get a job when they leave school. ;)

Yes to that too, even though I'm not sure whether that was agreement or sarcasm (attack at retiring on pensions that shouldn't be enough but relying on the next lot to pay them). It's economics making things grossly inefficient and difficult when it should be the opposite. The only limits should be the real, practical ones, i.e. growing enough food, access to enough raw materials, enough energy to work them etc. If economics, finances etc. aren't working to make efficient use of all of those then the very idea is flawed. Don't ask me what the better alternative is, though. It's the point at which communists justify simply controlling everything centrally, which doesn't have a terribly succesful track record.

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I do think there is some mileage in the 'lazy' Brit / hard working immigrant. Speaking to a group of 17/18 year olds a couple of days ago the enormous sense of entitlement and arrogance shone through. Basically they have been indoctrinated since birth that they are special, that they have rights with little responsibility, that a lifetime of nice houses and cars and a fancy job will come along (just as it did with their boomer parents) with very little effort needed on their part. All a bit sad really. One lad I know had specced up a new mini he fancied, knew all the bits he was going to add, cost was £25k! Didn't have a job mind and had only got three E's and a D in his A levels. Seems to spend more time on Facebook than revising.

Then on the other hand you have migrants coming in who are willing to do three part time jobs, live three to a room and live a relatively austere lifestyle.

A no-brainer really on who to employ.

Not sure its all that straightforward. My mother came here in the 60s and worked a number of jobs, finally ending up in nursing which she has done for forty years now, and is still working in her 70s! I suspect the truth is that you worked because that's what you did. What's the point of emigrating to another country and not working, unless you are being supported by your family? I know plenty of native British people who work every day God sends in this country. I think it comes down to whether you have a work ethic or not. I have been unemployed and better off on benefits, but its never occurred to me not to look for work.

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I do think there is some mileage in the 'lazy' Brit / hard working immigrant. Speaking to a group of 17/18 year olds a couple of days ago the enormous sense of entitlement and arrogance shone through. Basically they have been indoctrinated since birth that they are special, that they have rights with little responsibility, that a lifetime of nice houses and cars and a fancy job will come along (just as it did with their boomer parents) with very little effort needed on their part. All a bit sad really. One lad I know had specced up a new mini he fancied, knew all the bits he was going to add, cost was £25k! Didn't have a job mind and had only got three E's and a D in his A levels. Seems to spend more time on Facebook than revising.

Then on the other hand you have migrants coming in who are willing to do three part time jobs, live three to a room and live a relatively austere lifestyle.

A no-brainer really on who to employ.

There's a really serious flaw here, most businesses depend on a functioning economy, and people spending their money.

When all the "lazy" Brits are on benefits, and all the very worthwhile "hard working" immigrants have the jobs who is going to buy stuff to support businesses?, not only that the benefits bill will cripples the country.

Both spend most of their cash on food in places like Asda and the immigrants with the jobs send the rest home.

In such an environment Government borrowing soars, businesses fold and half the high streets in most towns will be empty, and the businesses that manage to survive see profits fall, also the banks would come under pressure due to the rising tide of defaults due to UK residents loosing their jobs to cheaper foreign labour, which would probably give us statistics like this:

9,072

number of new debt problems dealt with by CAB each working day (as at March 2011)

1,578 people

made redundant daily

807,000

unemployed for > 12 month

£55,803

average household debt

£20.71m

daily write-offs of loans by banks & building societies

every 14 minutes

a property is repossessed

every 4.36 minutes

someone will be declared insolvent or bankrupt

£251,500,000

daily increase in Government national debt (PSDN

http://www.creditaction.org.uk/helpful-resources/debt-statistics.html

Thank God this nightmare scenario is purely hypothetical :lol:

As a country we should aspire to more than being the worlds cheapest sweatshop

Edited by madpenguin
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There's a really serious flaw here, most businesses depend on a functioning economy, and people spending their money.

Somebody stuck a somebody else's problem field over it though.... it usually wears off once one is made redundant....

Still short termism is the British way.... I'm sure we can just print more money to paper over the cracks quite literally.

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There's a really serious flaw here, most businesses depend on a functioning economy, and people spending their money.

As a country we should aspire to more than being the worlds cheapest sweatshop

Btw http://www.thelightsinthetunnel.com/ Martin Ford describes this exact problem but from a technical point of view.

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if a bulgarian can save £10,000's of pounds a year like youre suggesting , by working hard and doing overtime, then a brit can also save £10,000's of pounds a year working hard and doing overtime. they may not be able to buy a house in the UK but its still a lot of money.

if the bulgarian could save enough money in a few years to buy a house in bulgaria, then the brit could save the same amount of money as well - thats not exactly being on the breadline - thats called working hard and saving your money rather than spending it all - just like many brits already do.

also migrant workers coming here are harder working - just like mirgrant brits going oversees will be harder working than the locals in the country which they go to.

Ah, the voice of sanity. There are lazy people all over the world, those that tend to leave their countries do so because, generally, they are driven. So +1 from me.

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Academic link to research to back this little gem of an assertion up please.

Not required. And not really possible either. Doubt there is an accurate way you can measure hard work for many jobs.

Just look at the employers. Lots here employ Polish because they know they are more likely to work hard. Why do you think many farms employ travelling Brits in Oz and NZ to pick fruits in scorching heat ? Because we are known for our skills in it :lol:

Nah - because they know we will work hard due to the situation.

The overall situation is a fairly complex matter. However people who go abroad to work are likely to put more effort into it and therefore more likely to get the job. Pretty simple.

Lost of young Brits in the UK are simply lazy and lots of foreigners who come here are simply not. Who would you employ ? Whether they should be 'allowed' to come here or not is another debate. Clearly related of course though.

That's the crux.

£10,000, £100,000, a million, it's all just bits of paper.

The only thing that matters is what you can do with it.

The point being that the Bulgarian can save enough money to buy a decent chunk of a house; the brit can't.

Guess who's going to be more motivated to go to work in the morning?

Nonsense IMO. There are a huge number of young in this country who are just lazy and not interested in any sort of hard work. To deny this is to deny the simple truth IMO. Blame it on the fact they can stilll work hard and get money - but wont be able to buy a house ? Fair enough up to a point - however why dont these youngsters save up a wee bit then head off to Canada, Oz or NZ and work there ? Answer me why ? Motivation is not an issue. Opportunity is not an issue - open to al under the age of 30. Lots of very good money to be earned in these places and lots of fun to be had.

Yet many of the young do not bother doing this. Laziness. Pure and simple. Would rather sit on facebook all day and whinge about how tough they have it. Lame. Lame in the extreme. They need to get a grip and go out and take advantage of the opportunities available to them. If they don't ? ZERO sympathy from me.

The mast majority could be having a blast working in a ski resort in Canada or a beach in Oz in 3 months time. If they decide to sit on their **** instead ? Up to them. However they deserve zero sympathy IMO.

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Ah, the voice of sanity. There are lazy people all over the world, those that tend to leave their countries do so because, generally, they are driven. So +1 from me.

Exactly. And we all know this. So why when people say something like 'Plenty of lazy youngsters in the UK today' - do so many try and deny this simple fact and make excuses for them ?!

Very strange. The entire immigration argument is an easy get out IMO. These same 20 year olds with apparently no opportunities can head off to Oz next month if they want !! Yet they complain about Poles coming here and taking 'Their job in Tesco'.

Pathetic. Get off your **** and go and do something.

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Load of ******** tbh. Over the past year >75% of new jobs created have gone to non-uk born. Its not simply minimum wage earners who have been replaced but individuals at a variety of levels above and beyond that. Simply put, they can get foreign workers at a lower cost per unit 'skill' due to the ability of these workers to cost arbitrage when returning to their home nations. UK workers cannot compete on this basis and are priced out.

Here's the VI ******** test you can apply - if it were a skill issue we'd expect high numbers of immigrant workers from places like germany, sweden, netherlands, etc. Nations which are know for having highly skilled workforces. But then there is about bugger all evidence of this - i.e. it's ********.

Thus the ******** reasons the VI's spout is just to hide that they are deliberately choosing cheaper labour, and an attempt to con the people into believing otherwise.

+

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Somebody stuck a somebody else's problem field over it though.... it usually wears off once one is made redundant....

Still short termism is the British way.... I'm sure we can just print more money to paper over the cracks quite literally.

TBH I think there's a limit to what they can print, and with the markets so jumpy I think we're almost there, printing more money means the pound falls and confidence in the UK's ability to pay falls further (and not having a good export market not even a weak currency helps as the higher costs for importing stuff currently far outweigh this)

Myself I think some sort of catastrophic economic collapse in the UK is pretty well inevitable at this stage, I'm not saying a mad Max scenario, more like the US's 1930's type misery, there has to come a point where the benefits/health bill becomes unsustainable especially with Government borrowing gradually becoming more expensive.

I seriously hope I'm wrong :unsure:

Edited by madpenguin
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Yep

if this was a sensible world we would not be making the current workforce work longer before they retire further retricting the chances of the young to get a job when they leave school. ;)

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-14644613

The proportion of 18 to 24-year-olds in England not in employment, education or training (Neet) has risen to 18.4%, official figures suggest.

The figure from the Department for Education is the highest for the second quarter since 2006, and is up from 16.3% last year.

Nearly a million (979,000) 16 to 24-year-olds were Neet between April and June this year, the figures show.

The government said it was boosting apprenticeships and 16 to 18 education.

Neets figures fluctuate during the academic year, peaking in the third quarter as school, college and university courses end.

But this year's 18 to 24 figures are the highest for the second quarter since comparable data was first published in 2006; the previous was 17.6% in 2008.

The figure is even higher for 19 to 24-year-olds, with 19.1% considered Neet.

The data is published for England only by the Department for Education, derived from the quarterly Labour Force Survey.

The proportion of young people in England aged 16 to 18 who are considered Neet has continued to fall, however, amid a government drive to encourage more young people to stay on in education or training.

'Brutal impact'

It dropped to 9.8% in the quarter to June, down from 10.2% at the same point in 2010, and 11.9% the previous year.

The figures come as record numbers - an estimated 220,000 - are expected to fail to get UK university places.

And last week, figures from the Office for National Statistics showed that youth unemployment in the UK - the proportion of 16 to 24-year-olds not in work - had also risen, from 20% to 20.2% in the quarter to June.

The Prince's Trust youth charity said it was "deeply concerned" that the Neets figures were rising again.

"We know that unemployment can have a brutal impact on young people, with thousands suffering from mental health problems, feelings of self-loathing and panic attacks," a spokesman said.

A government spokesman said the number of young people not in education, employment or training "has been too high for too long".

Adult apprenticeships

The fall in the number of 16 to 18-year-old Neets was an encouraging sign, and the government would set out a strategy for post-16 participation in education later this year, the spokesman said.

The government will have supported 250,000 more adult apprenticeship places than under Labour's plans and has launched a Work Programme offering personalised support and training to help unemployed young people, the spokesman added.

But critics point out that the government has cut back services such as the Connexions careers service network, the Future Jobs Fund - which created jobs for workless 18 to 24-year-olds - and the Aim Higher programme's work to encourage disadvantaged young people into higher education.

* Department for Education

over 20% if you count those who are in training and university etc.

Edited by awaytogo
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