More Companies To Hire Migrant Workers Than School Leavers

[Self Employed Youth]

+1 to the NEET figure today. I'm unemployed again.

The incentive to get back to work is now even lower than it was last year. However I hope to get another job quite soon, might have a start in 3 weeks, fingers crossed. I need a full time job, ideally one which offers overtime. Hopefully get a bit of cash/food/drink in hand work in the meantime.

I'm somewhat glad to have a few weeks on the dole, I'd been putting off going to the dentist due to the cost, so I can finally visit.

Why is the incentive to work now lower?

The housing association put my rent up again. 5.1% (Last Septembers RPI figure +0.5%), Wages/minimum wage hasn't risen with inflation, JSA hasn't risen with inflation, but housing benefit has. And public transport has risen above inflation.

Getting to work is now more expensive, and paying rent is more expensive. Lets not forget the increase in NI.

[ccc]

So did I.

And I think I am one !! Well - I think 90%+ of the population must be ?

[ccc]

+1 to the NEET figure today. I'm unemployed again.

The incentive to get back to work is now even lower than it was last year. However I hope to get another job quite soon, might have a start in 3 weeks, fingers crossed. I need a full time job, ideally one which offers overtime. Hopefully get a bit of cash/food/drink in hand work in the meantime.

I'm somewhat glad to have a few weeks on the dole, I'd been putting off going to the dentist due to the cost, so I can finally visit.

Why is the incentive to work now lower?

The housing association put my rent up again. 5.1% (Last Septembers RPI figure +0.5%), Wages/minimum wage hasn't risen with inflation, JSA hasn't risen with inflation, but housing benefit has. And public transport has risen above inflation.

Getting to work is now more expensive, and paying rent is more expensive. Lets not forget the increase in NI.

******ing hell. Do you think those in charge actually see the damage high property prices are doing ? And just dont care ? Or are they still oblivious to it all ?

I don't know. This Government seems to say some pretty reasonable things. Then again - words can mean sweet FA.

[Self Employed Youth]

And I think I am one !! Well - I think 90%+ of the population must be ?

Not even 70% of the working age population works.

Perhaps 90% of 79.3% of people working in the 18-24 demographic...

[ccc]

Not even 70% of the working age population works.

Perhaps 90% of 79.3% of people working in the 18-24 demographic...

My head hurts. But I think I know what you are saying. Maybe.

Most of those who work today are 'precariat' ?

Not sure if it only impacts those of the age bracket above.

[Self Employed Youth]

My head hurts. But I think I know what you are saying. Maybe.

Most of those who work today are 'precariat' ?

Not sure if it only impacts those of the age bracket above.

Plot % precariat vs age and you might get a graph somewhat resembling exponential decay.

Note this, at the food factory, 6months my labour as a proportion of labour needed in the production-distribution chain was the equivalent labour required to feed 2 humans for life at a rate of 2000 calories a day and assuming a life expectancy of 80.

Less than 1000 hours of labour can produce a house.

One year of national service for all (agricultural and homebuilding service), worked off at a rate of 40 hours per week, and all could eat and be housed. We could have a surplus of housing and food, and 0% employment.

And I'm supposed to work 2 -3 hours at minimum wage under the universal credit system in order to be able to buy a pint of flaming carlsberg in my local pub (if it is still open by the time UC is introduced next year).

[ccc]

Plot % precariat vs age and you might get a graph somewhat resembling exponential decay.

Note this, at the food factory, 6months my labour as a proportion of labour needed in the production-distribution chain was the equivalent labour required to feed 2 humans for life at a rate of 2000 calories a day and assuming a life expectancy of 80.

Less than 1000 hours of labour can produce a house.

One year of national service for all (agricultural and homebuilding service), worked off at a rate of 40 hours per week, and all could eat and be housed. We could have a surplus of housing and food, and 0% employment.

And I'm supposed to work 2 -3 hours at minimum wage under the universal credit system in order to be able to buy a pint of flaming carlsberg in my local pub (if it is still open by the time UC is introduced next year).

Well perhaps - I have no idea of the numbers stack up - but if so - how would people like not having all the fun stuff ?

[Self Employed Youth]

Well perhaps - I have no idea of the numbers stack up - but if so - how would people like not having all the fun stuff ?

Isn't that what you look for and devote your energy to when you have the basics

People can't stop working per se. But they needn't labour for a wage (for the duration of their working life) to provide the basics...

[pl1]

mfp123, on 24 August 2011 - 01:44 AM, said:if a bulgarian can save £10,000's of pounds a year like youre suggesting , by working hard and doing overtime, then a brit can also save £10,000's of pounds a year working hard and doing overtime. they may not be able to buy a house in the UK but its still a lot of money.

if the bulgarian could save enough money in a few years to buy a house in bulgaria, then the brit could save the same amount of money as well - thats not exactly being on the breadline - thats called working hard and saving your money rather than spending it all - just like many brits already do.

also migrant workers coming here are harder working - just like mirgrant brits going oversees will be harder working than the locals in the country which they go to.

That's the crux.

£10,000, £100,000, a million, it's all just bits of paper.

The only thing that matters is what you can do with it.

The point being that the Bulgarian can save enough money to buy a decent chunk of a house; the brit can't.

Guess who's going to be more motivated to go to work in the morning?

Well done Deep Lurker, I was going to spoonfeed it in a post that people don't work hard at manual jobs out of some altruistic integrity, but I couldn't be bothered.

Also, which country would a young British person (black or white) go to, to earn 3-4 times the UK rate mfp? Please enlighten us.Can you honestly not see the argument about purchasing power being a function of how hard someone will work?

[Tiger Woods?]

if a bulgarian can save £10,000's of pounds a year like youre suggesting , by working hard and doing overtime, then a brit can also save £10,000's of pounds a year working hard and doing overtime. they may not be able to buy a house in the UK but its still a lot of money.

if the bulgarian could save enough money in a few years to buy a house in bulgaria, then the brit could save the same amount of money as well - thats not exactly being on the breadline - thats called working hard and saving your money rather than spending it all - just like many brits already do.

The thing is, after a few years of saving, the Bulgarian has a house in his home country, the Brit doesn't even have a deposit. The Bulgarian will be motivated as he is making noticeable progress. The Brit will not. The circumstances are completely incomparable. It is easy to motivate yourself to work through adversity for a few years. It isn't for 2 decades.

[Riedquat]

I think you are basing your entire life experience and applying it to everyone else.

Do I want to move to New Zealand? No, not one single bit. My family, friends and life is here. Why should I move 3,000 miles away from it and slave in some banana plantation? Will that really make me happy?

Most people want a simple life. There will always be a small percentage of the population like you, willing to travel the world and jump at opportunities. But please don't apply you world views on everyone else and call everyone else "lazy" for not agreeing with you.

Nope, still sounds like lazy. Times are hard, and a lot of people have been screwed over by a few. That means that some people will have to go a long way out of their way and do things that they really would rather not have to do in order to get by. Those people are completely and utterly justified in being angry at the situation and demand changes, but at least they aren't looking at it, shrugging, and saying "Can't be arsed, I'll just sit around and scrounge instead." And for how many of them is it even about going to another country? How many of them would even consider bothering to look for work outside their town?

[wonderpup]

Some would say that means that those who choose not to work get too much handed to them.

It's true that those who choose not to work for less than they gain by not working are making a rational choice, and one entirely in accord with the current value system of self interested action.

The solution seems so simple- cut all benefits- one wonders why the authorities have not simply done it. Perhaps the problem is that if you take away the social safety net you radically alter the structure of society away from consumption and spending toward hoarding and saving- which would result in a huge collapse in demand for goods and services.

There is a symbiotic relationship between the welfare state and the consumer led economy that is seldom overtly recognised- but even the Chinese are in the process of building a basic safety net because they realise that without it they will never achieve the kind of internal consumption they need to wean themselves off dependency on western consumers.

So while cutting benefits seems an appealing and elegant solution (at least to those who fondly imagine that they will never need them) in reality our economic well being is intimately bound up with the existence of a welfare state that provides, if not the reality- then the illusion of 'social security', which in turn promotes the kind of large scale consumption and spending upon which most of our jobs depend.

Many of those who call loudest for the abolition of benefits would find themselves unemployed if their wish came true because the people who currently buy the products and services their companies make would stop buying and start saving.

[aa3]

Great point wunderpup. I've read some speeches by the highest leaders in China and they say openly they are trying to put in place better pensions, free health and welfare so that people do not save and hoard so much of their money.

As the Chinese leaders know the only way to drive their economy forward is the Chinese consumer, obviously they have taken exporting to westerners as far as it can go. (its also sort of interesting in the speeches I read they didn't even mention the moral reasons of providing a social safety net to help people.. it was purely to increase consumption).

If we did eliminate the social safety net, people would be forced from fear to save every penny just in case. And you can imagine what that would do to our already failing consumer economy.

Edited August 25, 2011 by aa3

[mfp123]

Well done Deep Lurker, I was going to spoonfeed it in a post that people don't work hard at manual jobs out of some altruistic integrity, but I couldn't be bothered.

Also, which country would a young British person (black or white) go to, to earn 3-4 times the UK rate mfp? Please enlighten us.Can you honestly not see the argument about purchasing power being a function of how hard someone will work?

does it matter whether they are motivated by the purchasing power parity, or the fact they they are emigrants i.e those that are driven, or the fact that maybe theyre trying to get by in a foreign country so work harder to do it (lots of brits work much harder doing manual jobs in australia etc. than they would in the Uk so that they can earn a living in another country).

ultimately they do work harder. my point was they are not earning or saving more than a brit. so if they can save any sort of money then the brit (and lots of brits do) can save money too. i.e they are not on the borderline between benefits/ being employed.

if working hard means you can save £5000/£10000, forget purchasing power parity, if working hard means you can bank £5000-£10000 a year as a brit, living in the UK, and you cant be bothered because its too much effort - thats no excuse whatsoever.

and indeed lots of people, in fact ill bet a vast majority of people work hard everyday without saving that much money. they might have have commitments or a family to support, thats what motivates them every day.

people work hard everyday in the UK to survive, almost everybody works out of necessity, not just to live a cushty life, they dont have that luxury, so to say people arent motivated to work, that tells me they have it too easy if theyre not bothered about getting or losing their job.

it is that attitude in thinking a job is there to give you a lifestyle, rather than a job allows you to survive, that is the problem.

Edited August 25, 2011 by mfp123

[madpenguin]

does it matter whether they are motivated by the purchasing power parity, or the fact they they are emigrants i.e those that are driven, or the fact that maybe theyre trying to get by in a foreign country so work harder to do it (lots of brits work much harder doing manual jobs in australia etc. than they would in the Uk so that they can earn a living in another country).

ultimately they do work harder. my point was they are not earning or saving more than a brit. so if they can save any sort of money then the brit (and lots of brits do) can save money too. i.e they are not on the borderline between benefits/ being employed.

if working hard means you can save £5000/£10000, forget purchasing power parity, if working hard means you can bank £5000-£10000 a year as a brit, living in the UK, and you cant be bothered because its too much effort - thats no excuse whatsoever.

Indeed it does matter a great deal about the immigrant workers motivation and what they do with their money, if it goes home then that's a net loss to the UK economy (In your scenario if every £5000/£10000 saved by a foreign worker goes back to Gdansk or Mumbai or whatever that money is not spent in the UK therefore the UK economy has that much less money spent within it ), if they come into the country under schemes such as Intra Company Transfer that is a Net loss to the country in tax terms (up to 20% less tax than a UK tax paying employee, per employee ICT entry to the UK runs at around 30,000 to 60,000 individuals a year for the last 5-6 years at least), if they work for much less than existing local workers then that is a net loss in tax, employment, and general drop in pay throughout that industry for the local resident population, which also results in less tax to the exchequer and less money spent in the UK economy, I could go on but I think you see what I'm getting at, we haven't even begun to discuss non tax paying workers in the "black economy" side of the equation.

I've known a number of Brits who have spent some years working in places like Bahrain and returned home wealthy (in that case mainly due to there being no tax) in one case a guy I knew bought a farm in Wales, this is the reason many immigrant workers are here, not because they are naturally hard working, but just because they have the incentive that when they return home they can live like kings on that 5-10k, meanwhile in the UK's wrecked economy the UK guy who has saved 5k can by no stretch of the imagination be called wealthy, and in fact next time they are out of work that 5k will quickly disappear just paying bills to survive.

Edited August 25, 2011 by madpenguin

[Guest eight]

Plot % precariat vs age and you might get a graph somewhat resembling exponential decay.

Note this, at the food factory, 6months my labour as a proportion of labour needed in the production-distribution chain was the equivalent labour required to feed 2 humans for life at a rate of 2000 calories a day and assuming a life expectancy of 80.

Less than 1000 hours of labour can produce a house.

One year of national service for all (agricultural and homebuilding service), worked off at a rate of 40 hours per week, and all could eat and be housed. We could have a surplus of housing and food, and 0% employment.

And I'm supposed to work 2 -3 hours at minimum wage under the universal credit system in order to be able to buy a pint of flaming carlsberg in my local pub (if it is still open by the time UC is introduced next year).

Formerly Unemployed Youth, are you the 21st century George Orwell or something? You should be novelising these experiences rather than giving them away for free on a public forum.

[PopGun]

Getting to work is now more expensive, and paying rent is more expensive. Lets not forget the increase in NI.

Basically, a very large demographic is being priced out of participating in the economy.

[PopGun]

After 10+ years of doing nothing nothing more strenuous than walking to the off-licence for 20 Benson + a 6 pack of Stella - best of luck to them.

They looked pretty active during the riots to me.

10+ years of smoking and drinking eh? They must of all have been early starters then.

But of course we all know career unemployment didn't exist before 1997!?!

Edited August 25, 2011 by PopGun

[madpenguin]

They looked pretty active during the riots to me.

There you go see motivation again, 30 mins work to get a flat screen tv, new stereo, beer and cigarettes, seems like a good deal

[Milton]

Sky News

Net migration to the UK has risen by more than 20% last year to 239,000, going against the Government's pledge to reduce it.

The increase, from 198,000 in 2009, has been fuelled by a fall in the number of people leaving the country, figures from the Office of National Statistics (ONS) have shown.

Ministers had pledged to bring net migration down to tens of thousands by 2015.

Studying in the UK is the most common reason for those arrving here - three out of four of the 228,000 who came to study were from outside the EU.

The statistics also reveal the number of people coming for a definite job was at its lowest in over six years, at 110,000.

Edited August 25, 2011 by Milton

[ccc]

does it matter whether they are motivated by the purchasing power parity, or the fact they they are emigrants i.e those that are driven, or the fact that maybe theyre trying to get by in a foreign country so work harder to do it (lots of brits work much harder doing manual jobs in australia etc. than they would in the Uk so that they can earn a living in another country).

ultimately they do work harder. my point was they are not earning or saving more than a brit. so if they can save any sort of money then the brit (and lots of brits do) can save money too. i.e they are not on the borderline between benefits/ being employed.

if working hard means you can save £5000/£10000, forget purchasing power parity, if working hard means you can bank £5000-£10000 a year as a brit, living in the UK, and you cant be bothered because its too much effort - thats no excuse whatsoever.

and indeed lots of people, in fact ill bet a vast majority of people work hard everyday without saving that much money. they might have have commitments or a family to support, thats what motivates them every day.

people work hard everyday in the UK to survive, almost everybody works out of necessity, not just to live a cushty life, they dont have that luxury, so to say people arent motivated to work, that tells me they have it too easy if theyre not bothered about getting or losing their job.

it is that attitude in thinking a job is there to give you a lifestyle, rather than a job allows you to survive, that is the problem.

Exactly. If Mr Pole can get 3 jobs and save that much in the UK in a year - then Mr Bolton can also. If they REALLY put the effort in. And with that 10k they could go and do something else with it. Who knows - ****** off and live like a bum for a year abroad. Start a wee business. Who knows - however there would be potential to do something with it. These people just do not want to see the potential as they cannot be arsed with putting the effort in. Simple as that. And as others have said in the UK we have many of these such people - much to do with the 'I'm worth it culture' and most definately the benefits culture.

I always hear that these Poles all ive 6 to a room to save money. So they have agreat benefit compared to the young Brits they are in competition for jobs with. Whilst that may be true for some - it is quite an exaggeration for most I imagine.

What I do not hear these same people saying is that many of these British youngsters still stay at home, many for minimal rent and many for ZERO rent. Does Mr Pole have that advantage ? Of course not. However this is a point that I never hear being made during these discussions.

Things are hard and a lot of people get ******ed over. No doubt about that. However I just do not understand the constant defending of so many people that just are lazy and nothing more. We all know them , we have all met them, we all see them every day - why then deny they exist ?!

The reasons behind is the interesting stuff. But to simply deny these people even exist is a great mystery to me.

[Guest eight]

Exactly. If Mr Pole can get 3 jobs and save that much in the UK in a year - then Mr Bolton can also. If they REALLY put the effort in. And with that 10k they could go and do something else with it. Who knows - ****** off and live like a bum for a year abroad. Start a wee business. Who knows - however there would be potential to do something with it. These people just do not want to see the potential as they cannot be arsed with putting the effort in. Simple as that. And as others have said in the UK we have many of these such people - much to do with the 'I'm worth it culture' and most definately the benefits culture.

Just out of interest, what sort of business could you start for £10K. Not many I'd wager. These days that amount of money buys you virtually nothing by way of capital equipment, advertising, or stock.

[ccc]

Just out of interest, what sort of business could you start for £10K. Not many I'd wager. These days that amount of money buys you virtually nothing by way of capital equipment, advertising, or stock.

I think you will find that many of hte most succesful people out there have started businesses with £10, never mind £10,000.

Not saying it is easy of course. Just pointing out it is possible.

Who knows ? Dog walking business if you have lots of experience with dogs ? Buy a semi decent van - get some snazzy work done on the side. Get loads of leaflets done. Get some basic dog equipment. Get out talking to anyone you can see with a dog. Spread the word. Speak to EVERYONE.

May well fail. Then again - it could just work. And easily done for £10k. Whether you start to making money or not is another question. However it could be set up and ready to go for 10k easy. And if it doesnt work ? LEsson learned, and a year of your life trying something different and learning about running a business. Nothing to lose from a starting point of precisley ZERO, is there ? And all these youngsters tell us they have preciseley zero so they cannot exactly argue with that - can they.

And that is just one example of the top of my head. An example that I think most of us agree could be started by most 20 year olds willing to put in serious effort and do numerous jobs over the next yar or two to save up the required cash.

I just get annoyed by people saying there are no opportunities out there. There are.

[Guest eight]

I think you will find that many of hte most succesful people out there have started businesses with £10, never mind £10,000.

I just asked because I'm trying to start something with exactly that amount of capital (and it's not a trifling amount of money by any means). Everything that I need costs three figures. You don't have many of those to go at before the cash runs dry.

[Gerinako]

The travelling points made in this post does have it's merits - as I was about 2 weeks away from booking a flight out of Europe to go travelling as I spent nearly a year looking for a job and putting aside what I could from my dole money to put towards potential ideas/plans. Thankfully I got a call just as I was ready to pack it all in.

But some of you with your posts seem like your in cloud cuckoo/perfect land. I see some posters on one thread on here saying why move to Australia and the likes and leave the one thing you've got here (support network) then when it comes to struggling to find a job you're advocating going all gung-ho and leaving that one thing in your life.

When I first started work several years ago before the recession even hit I was struggling for a job - any job, on the occasions I got through to an interview I lost out due to 'lack of experience'

When I applied for manual work - basic grungy work but better than nothing - I didn't even get to interview stage for these due to being 'over qualified'. (Although being a bit wiser in the world I'll remove all my qualifications from my CV should I ever have to apply for these again.) Eventually I did land a job, minimal pay topped up by the tax man till I got that 'experience' then sacked them off and stepped up the ladder. But the start of it all? Soul destroying.

And the Mr Pole argument is flawed - whoever put that nugget out earlier, that £10,000 spending power when translated back to Poland is huge but we'll ignore that because it happens to be convenient to forget that.

Tbh, I'm finding the mass generalization of people on the dole and/or school leavers by some as 'lazy or fag smoking, cider drinking louts' insulting.