Eric Pickles - Mansion Tax

[nmarks]

I don't know how many HPCers heard this. No-one has started a thread on it yet, perhaps the comments were made too early this morning, but HPCers should be aware that Eric Pickles was reported on TV this morning as having made comments regarding Vince Cable's plan to introduce a Mansion Tax.

I am quite sure most HPCers will find Pickles's comments an insult to the intelligence, but then again casual insult is a hallmark of his career. To be clear, Cable's plan involved raising additional tax revenue from properties valued at £1million or more.

Pickles apparently stated that he didn't want to penalise ordinary middle class families as property price rises weren't their fault. He also commented that as there were so few properties that would fit the common understanding definition of a what mansion is that introducting the tax would not be worth while. Pickles also felt that introducing such a tax would be unfair because of regional property price variations. Pickles also said that such families already contribute more to the UK than they take out.

Firstly, since when were people who owned properties worth more than £1million understood to fit the definition of 'ordinary'?

Secondly, being the beneficiary of price rises is not a matter of blame, it is a matter of fact. Pickles argument here is an argument for getting rid of all kinds of taxes, including Capital Gains Tax, Corporation Tax and Income Tax.

Thirdly, Pickles point about what is ordinarily defined as a mansion is a display of contempt. The name of the proposed tax is just that, a name.

Fourthly, council tax rates differ between different regions of the country and differ according to property value, so two of Pickles's arguments don't hold water.

Finally, on the point of what people give and receive with the UK; anyone who can afford to live in a £1million+ home can afford an accountant and afford to run offshore tax arrangements. Pickles, being the embodiment of contemptuous gluttony he is, should put his money where his colossal mouth is and prove that statement as you can be sure the ratio of tax paid to assets owned is much lower for the rich than it is for everyone else.

Edited August 20, 2011 by nmarks

[MrPin]

How big does a house need to be to be a "mansion"?

This lack of definition will make it unworkable!

[nmarks]

How big does a house need to be to be a "mansion"?

This lack of definition will make it unworkable!

For the sake of the legislation you could define it is as any property worth more than £1million. There, done.

[MrPin]

For the sake of the legislation you could define it is as any property worth more than £1million. There, done.

We will all be paying it in a few years then?

[jaspers]

What did you expect from the Party of inherited privilege?

[nmarks]

We will all be paying it in a few years then?

Possibly, if you believe the Daily Express.

But don't go slitting your wrists just yet; the Government has this amazing capacity to do things like review tax thresholds and change tax rates, so you'll be just fine and dandy in your trillion renmimbi studio flat.

[Kurt Barlow]

It seems to me that a Mansion tax is the only way to get some of the UK's resident Oligarchs to cough up some dough and if they don't the property accumulates a charge plus a punitive rate of interest.

As someone else said - Pickles & the Party of Privilege.

[jammo]

Great, a politician that's against tax! I for one am with Pickles - lets get rid of more of them. Don't want to penalise the ordinary man for living in a mansion - fair play. But also we can't go around penalising the poor chap for working, or driving, or letting the council exist, etc.

I'm with Pickles!

[nmarks]

Great, a politician that's against tax! I for one am with Pickles - lets get rid of more of them. Don't want to penalise the ordinary man for living in a mansion - fair play. But also we can't go around penalising the poor chap for working, or driving, or letting the council exist, etc.

I'm with Pickles!

Evidently, your intelligence is not insulted.

He'll have you for breakfast, with some fava beans and a nice chianti. And he might eat you too.

Edited August 20, 2011 by nmarks

[Kurt Barlow]

Great, a politician that's against tax! I for one am with Pickles - lets get rid of more of them. Don't want to penalise the ordinary man for living in a mansion - fair play. But also we can't go around penalising the poor chap for working, or driving, or letting the council exist, etc.

I'm with Pickles!

If your interest is the common man perhaps scrap band A council tax and recover through a mansion tax?

The practical answer to this is to levy progressibvely higher rates of COuncil tax on £1m / £2m / £3m + properties.

Edited August 20, 2011 by Kurt Barlow

[MrPin]

If your interest is the common man perhaps scrap band A council tax and recover through a mansion tax?

The practical answer to this is to levy progressibvely higher rates of COuncil tax on £1m / £2m / £3m + properties.

That is very practical! I can't see them going for it!

[tahoma]

.... Pickles also said that such families already contribute more to the UK than they take out.

This. It's true.

If more people were in this category, we would not be in this mess. Instead we have an embedded attitude of entitlement from those in receipt of OPM through various channels - be it dole or a public sector salary - which has become so... comfortable with the idea of living off others that it thinks it can now demand even more.

We have a very high marginal tax rate. States are supposed to support the people, not the other way round.

Getting tired of the soak-the-rich screetches now.

[nmarks]

This. It's true.

If more people were in this category, we would not be in this mess. Instead we have an embedded attitude of entitlement from those in receipt of OPM through various channels - be it dole or a public sector salary - which has become so... comfortable with the idea of living off others that it thinks it can now demand even more.

We have a very high marginal tax rate. States are supposed to support the people, not the other way round.

Getting tired of the soak-the-rich screetches now.

So naive.

As I said, anyone who can afford a £1million property can afford an accoutant and run their tax affairs offshore, Channel Islands, Isle of Man, Cayman, British Virgin Islands and so on.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/politics/article6936364.ece

[Butthead]

This. It's true.

It is true but that doesn't make a tax on high value property wrong.

A drop in other taxes, principally income tax, offset by a property tax and a cut in benefits/public sector payroll would be more than agreeable. I think Mr Pickles is trying to whip up grass roots Tory supporters with slightly misleading arguments about tax rates that will never apply to most.

[winkie]

Great, a politician that's against tax! I for one am with Pickles - lets get rid of more of them. Don't want to penalise the ordinary man for living in a mansion - fair play. But also we can't go around penalising the poor chap for working, or driving, or letting the council exist, etc.

I'm with Pickles!

I'm with kurt and pickles....what is good for the goose is also good for the gander.

It seems to me that a Mansion tax is the only way to get some of the UK's resident Oligarchs to cough up some dough and if they don't the property accumulates a charge plus a punitive rate of interest.

As someone else said - Pickles & the Party of Privilege.

[Self Employed Youth]

Council tax needs to be scrapped and replaced with a poll tax for workers.

Unemployed people should be exempt from paying it, to encourage the council to boost employment in the local area.

There should also be a land value tax, with an exemption for primary family dwellings up to a certain space standard (50-100 Sqm's per person for example).

[Kurt Barlow]

So naive.

As I said, anyone who can afford a £1million property can afford an accoutant and run their tax affairs offshore, Channel Islands, Isle of Man, Cayman, British Virgin Islands and so on.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/politics/article6936364.ece

Quite - we have all seen the tax declarations for multi millionaires who pay less income tax than your average school teacher. In contrast it is very difficult to conceal a property - especially those worth over a million quid.

[nmarks]

Council tax needs to be scrapped and replaced with a poll tax for workers.

Council Tax is based on the value of property assets individuals own. If you are going to scrap that, you would be lightening the burden on those who make a living from unearned income, or, to spell it out, you would be making the rich richer and the poor poorer.

There should also be a land value tax, with an exemption for primary family dwellings up to a certain space standard (50-100 Sqm's per person for example).

Why exempt primary dewllings? Billionaires like Abramovich would end up paying nothing. By adopting such an idea you would effectively be subsidizing the world's rich, but then again, what's new about that?

Edited August 20, 2011 by nmarks

[Kurt Barlow]

Here we go - perfect example of one rule for them and another for the rest of us;

Philip 'Slimer' Green - paid £1.2bn dividend to his wife in Monaco. Despite those earnings arising in the UK - no tax paid on it.

In contrast HMRC are always looking for an opportunity to tax my sub £100K earnings arising in Saudi Arabia despite the fact I spend less than 40 days a year in the UK.

[winkie]

Here we go - perfect example of one rule for them and another for the rest of us;

Philip 'Slimer' Green - paid £1.2bn dividend to his wife in Monaco. Despite those earnings arising in the UK - no tax paid on it.

In contrast HMRC are always looking for an opportunity to tax my sub £100K earnings arising in Saudi Arabia despite the fact I spend less than 40 days a year in the UK.

..if the PTB can't sort it, we can all do our little bit by shopping and spending our money with ethical companies...don't shop in greens shops.

[Kurt Barlow]

..if the PTB can't sort it, we can all do our little bit by shopping and spending our money with ethical companies...don't shop in greens shops.

Agreed.

That slimer is doing nothing but loading his companies up with debt to pay dividends to his alleged tax exile wife (who really resides in the UK). The guy is nothing more than a Private equity asset stripper and sending all the money abroad.

In contrast I actually procure many British goods and services and am shortly on a recruitment drive with UK people in mind.

[olliegog]

as council tax is levied on who lives in the property not necessarily who 'owns' it - those who rent a £1m 'value' house (HB or not) would have to pay the so-called 'mansion' council tax.

[MongerOfDoom]

I am quite sure most HPCers will find Pickles's comments an insult to the intelligence, but then again casual insult is a hallmark of his career. To be clear, Cable's plan involved raising additional tax revenue from properties valued at £1million or more.

Actually, i think he is perfectly sensible, and certainly not insulting. The two-sided LibDems on the other hand deserve all the derision they can get. Their plan started as an extra tax on homes costing over £1m. Then they noticed that it affected their voters, so it became double the tax on homes costing over £2m. That tells you all you need to know about them.

Firstly, since when were people who owned properties worth more than £1million understood to fit the definition of 'ordinary'?

I am afraid there is nothing uncommon about this. If you bought a house 40 years ago in the right area, you can very easily fall into that category and yet live very frugally because that is all you can afford. You could move, but just don't want to.

Secondly, being the beneficiary of price rises is not a matter of blame, it is a matter of fact. Pickles argument here is an argument for getting rid of all kinds of taxes, including Capital Gains Tax, Corporation Tax and Income Tax.

It would suit me just fine if someone were to tax housing because then I could buy somewhere reasonably exclusive that would correspond to my earning power and education. However, that in itself would not make it fair, and it is especially not an argument for a market-distorting smash'n'grab tax.

Thirdly, Pickles point about what is ordinarily defined as a mansion is a display of contempt. The name of the proposed tax is just that, a name.

Fourthly, council tax rates differ between different regions of the country and differ according to property value, so two of Pickles's arguments don't hold water.

Yes, but the difference between areas is very little. There is no problem I can see with taxing housing more, but a massive tax hit if someone decides your house is worth £1m and not £999999 is a pure idiocy. In particular, its value will easily be £50k+ less the next year once the tax is payable on it, so perhaps they will remove the tax the year after ...

Finally, on the point of what people give and receive with the UK; anyone who can afford to live in a £1million+ home can afford an accountant and afford to run offshore tax arrangements.

Errm, nonsense. You need to be paying at least 35k in tax on offshore income before even a free accountant could save you anything. Even then, you need non-dom status which is difficult to acquire if you don't have it already (though easier for women than men). This is vastly beyond the means of people who only have a £1m house.

[Mikhail Liebenstein]

Actually, i think he is perfectly sensible, and certainly not insulting. The two-sided LibDems on the other hand deserve all the derision they can get. Their plan started as an extra tax on homes costing over £1m. Then they noticed that it affected their voters, so it became double the tax on homes costing over £2m. That tells you all you need to know about them.

I am afraid there is nothing uncommon about this. If you bought a house 40 years ago in the right area, you can very easily fall into that category and yet live very frugally because that is all you can afford. You could move, but just don't want to.

It would suit me just fine if someone were to tax housing because then I could buy somewhere reasonably exclusive that would correspond to my earning power and education. However, that in itself would not make it fair, and it is especially not an argument for a market-distorting smash'n'grab tax.

Yes, but the difference between areas is very little. There is no problem I can see with taxing housing more, but a massive tax hit if someone decides your house is worth £1m and not £999999 is a pure idiocy. In particular, its value will easily be £50k+ less the next year once the tax is payable on it, so perhaps they will remove the tax the year after ...

Errm, nonsense. You need to be paying at least 35k in tax on offshore income before even a free accountant could save you anything. Even then, you need non-dom status which is difficult to acquire if you don't have it already (though easier for women than men). This is vastly beyond the means of people who only have a £1m house.

I tend to agree. £1m for house in the South East isn't a huge figure these days. My own house if pretty close to £1m which was got through a lot of hardwork and paying 40% tax all of the way and with a mortage. My neighbours who are older and who HPCers could be argued as less deserving having mainly gain through HPI and don't really have the income to pay such a tax.

The problem is the Bankers, Politician and Global Oligarchs would love you to think a family earning £500k gross a year is rich. In practice they are not rich, just very well off. Rich is Philip Green, George Soros etc and these are the guys who should see higher taxes rather than getting away with paying next to nothing.

[R K]

So naive.

As I said, anyone who can afford a £1million property can afford an accoutant and run their tax affairs offshore, Channel Islands, Isle of Man, Cayman, British Virgin Islands and so on.

http://www.timesonli...icle6936364.ece

Even Warren Buffet thinks the rich ought to pay more taxes.

Pickles is the bag man for a certain demography and let's face it, it ain't 95% of his constituents.

Surprised he didn't mention the laugher curve. Every other rich f*cker does.

Edit: It's from Pickles interview in the Telegraph. Astonishinlgy he conflates ordinary middle class Tories with anyone living in a £1m + house and earning £150k+. Breath-taking hubris from the "We're all in this together" party. You'd need to be earning c. £300,000 p.a. to be able to buy a £1m+ house. With people like Pickles running the country there's really little hope for 95% of the population. The libdems are little better by keeping these people in power. The biggest mistake they ever made and keep on making.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/property/8712661/Eric-Pickles-says-no-to-higher-property-taxes-for-middle-classes.html

Edited August 20, 2011 by Red Knight