Inventories And Deposit Problems

[sleepwello'nights]

I sent the LL an email this morning asking for communication to be in writing or through the agent and I got an exceptionally vitriolic reply back tonight. He used phrases like "you can't afford my time (for the work he did cleaning up the damp damage and cutting down trees in the garden)". He said that it was as well for me that I didn't answer his calls. He also refused point blank to provide evidence to support his claims against our deposit.

I've found that when someone is as defensive as your landlord then they know they do not have a good case. Particularly when they lose their objectivity and become emotional and irrational.

Download the claim forms and initiate the dispute.

[Eos]

Download the claim forms and initiate the dispute.

I can't... the TDS won't look at it until 20 working days have passed (its only 13 today)... but I will as soon as its day 21!

[sleepwello'nights]

Coincidentally I received this e-mail today:

24th August 2011

news round up from my|deposits

Dispute tips

With summer being the busiest time of year at my|deposits for disputes over the deposit, we’ve provided some key points on what you need to do if faced with a dispute with a tenant.

If you need to withhold part or all of the deposit from your tenant you must provide evidence to support your claim. But please only send us your evidence when we request you to do so.

What kind of evidence do you need?

The Tenancy Agreement: First and foremost, you must submit the AST agreement to help establish the obligations between you and your tenant.

The Inventory: Ensure you have a comprehensive inventory that is signed by the tenant when they move in. Make sure any photos or videos are dated, and clearly point out any damage if relying on photos as evidence in a dispute.

Check-in and check-out: Attend the property when the tenant is moving in and moving out and inspect it together. This way, you can usually come to an agreement over the deposit return at final inspection.

Relevant Evidence: Only submit evidence relevant to the claim. For example, if claiming for property damage, don’t submit an unpaid utility bill.

Invoices, receipts or rental account statements: Submit invoices or receipts for any repair work that you’re claiming for. If the claim involves rent arrears, provide detailed accounts showing unpaid rent.

Expect Fair Wear and Tear: Finally, don’t make deductions for minor damage that should be expected in any normal use of the property.

For more comprehensive guidelines, view our Guide to Deposits Disputes and Damages and our Wear and Tear Guide.

Follow all our latest news on Twitter - @mydeposits, or by joining our Facebook page.

Until next month,

Eddie Hooker,

Chief Executive Officer, mydeposits

[Eos]

Thanks for this.

I never signed the check-in inventory and I didn't even see it for the first 13 months.

The LL didn't attend the check-out inventory, although I did. Bizarrely the inventory clerk said we shouldn't have any problems with getting our deposit back as she closed the front door at the end of the check out inventory. Then we got a claim of £900+.

There's no claim over the garden, so why is the LL mentioning the time he spent on it in the email (and implying that this is part of the £400 cleaning charge? I don't get it.

He is saying that he was too busy getting the house ready for the next tenant to collect evidence to back up his claim. Would that hold water with a tribunal?

[zebbedee]

Would that hold water with a tribunal?

No

[Eos]

A few more days have gone by and nothing more from the letting agent, including the undisputed part of my deposit (nearly £2k). I asked in writing twice when I will get it back and the emails have been ignored. So i called this morning and asked again. The agent I spoke to said she'd let me know this afternoon and I reminded her that it should have been repaid immediately according to the TDS, so it s a week late already. I suggested that maybe she should think about actually getting it paid.

(It will be crazy to have to go to the TDS to get even the undisputed portion repaid to me!)

Meanwhile the agency proudly include a message about how they just one some good agency award on their on-hold "musac".

[Eos]

The landlord's claim just jumped by 60% (no explanation or detail about what the extra money is for)

[Tiger Woods?]

The landlord's claim just jumped by 60% (no explanation or detail about what the extra money is for)

Desperation - he is trying to bluff you. The fact that this keeps changing is also evidence in your favour, i.e. he is making it up as he goes along.

Just reading the rest of the thread. I've had similar run ins in the past, so now I photograph and document everything as well as providing a CD of pictures with the returned inventory and note the fact on the inventory itself (so it can't be "lost"). I obviously keep a copy for my records. It seems to be common practice among certain agents seem to use the sloppy check-in, hyper-acute check out process. I now do a hyper-acute check-in myself.

The worst case of check-out abuse I ran into was the check-out agent altering the form I had signed in her car after I had signed it. In light of this, I now put lines through every blank space and at the end of any comments, initial them and note the fact where I sign the form, to prevent pages being replaced with new ones. Paranoid I know, but since I have started doing these things no LL has tried it on.

A 10 year old carpet has reached the end of its lifetime. He cannot claim for this.

[Jason]

Any more news Eos?

If you never signed the check in inventory why don't you dispute all of the deposit, and any claims just say "it was like that when I moved in". They cannot prove otherwise, as you never agreed to the check in inventory.

[Eos]

It is over five weeks since the tenancy ended, three weeks since they sent me the first claim, two weeks since it went up 60%. I have asked in writing several times for something to substantiate the claims and my request has been ignored every time. In turn the agent has written three times asking for a counter offer and/ or a meeting at his office where he can explain the landlord's claims and then get me to make a counter offer. I keep saying the offer is £0, now justify your claim.

Anyway, after no contact for a fortnight from the agency's side, they finally sprang into action last night (maybe because I sent an email quoting the Property Ombudsman code of conduct yesterday morning). But still they keep ignoring my request for something to validate the landlord's claim and they keep asking me to make a counter offer. Finally the agent wrote today that if I won't make a counter-offer, then he'll refer the matter to the TDS and tell them that I refused. he made it sound like a threat.

I replied that i was tired of going round in circles and that as far as I am concerned the claim is false so either give me all my money back within a week, or I will refer the matter to the TDS myself.

(and the agent can't/ won't tell me why the landlord increased the claim by 60%).

So, a week from now, I'll be looking for advice on how to complete the TDS forms (if anyone has any experience?)

[Eos]

I got an email today from the agent to say that the landlord's have reduced their claim by 40% (no explanation) and that they will soon give the agent receipts and estimates to back up their claims. Then the agent is going to refer the matter to the dispute service on the landlord's behalf.

I will wait until I've got the money back - should be by Thursday - so that I know how much to put down on the TDS claim form (unless the agent does it first)

[zebbedee]

I got an email today from the agent to say that the landlord's have reduced their claim by 40% (no explanation) and that they will soon give the agent receipts and estimates to back up their claims. Then the agent is going to refer the matter to the dispute service on the landlord's behalf.

I will wait until I've got the money back - should be by Thursday - so that I know how much to put down on the TDS claim form (unless the agent does it first)

Is that they've reduced it to 60% of original or they realised that an out of thin air increase strongly suggests they were simply at it and have brought it from 1->1.6->0.96 solely for the claim to match at start and end, keep any written (email) evidence of thier attempt at intimidating you with spurious claims, the despute service will have seen it all before.

[Eos]

i hope you are right, Zebedee! Well the agent didn't pay back the extra undisputed money yesterday, as promised, so unless I get it back today, I am going to have to raise a dispute with the TDS even to get the undisputed money refunded!

[Eos]

I got a very interesting email from the person who had the tenancy before me over the weekend. (We got to know each other after I moved to the area and into the house that she had just moved out of). She tells me that the house had damp problems whilst she lived there and then it was flooded about a year before we moved in. About half the LL's claim against my deposit is for damp which he says I must have caused by breathing!

I asked for a damp inspection and he wouldn't do it, so now I know why.

The other half of the email goes into territory which would be of interest to the inland revenue and I am fairly certain that the landlord would not want the tax man to see his ex-tenant's description of what she'd witnessed.

I had the dispute service papers all printed out and ready to be posted to the TDS this morning, but now I am wondering what to do? Show this to the letting agent first and give the landlord one last chance to end this all or just send the whole lot to the TDS this morning, including a copy of the email with the tax evasion allegations and wait for all hell to break loose?

[zebbedee]

I got a very interesting email from the person who had the tenancy before me over the weekend. (We got to know each other after I moved to the area and into the house that she had just moved out of). She tells me that the house had damp problems whilst she lived there and then it was flooded about a year before we moved in. About half the LL's claim against my deposit is for damp which he says I must have caused by breathing!

I asked for a damp inspection and he wouldn't do it, so now I know why.

The other half of the email goes into territory which would be of interest to the inland revenue and I am fairly certain that the landlord would not want the tax man to see his ex-tenant's description of what she'd witnessed.

I had the dispute service papers all printed out and ready to be posted to the TDS this morning, but now I am wondering what to do? Show this to the letting agent first and give the landlord one last chance to end this all or just send the whole lot to the TDS this morning, including a copy of the email with the tax evasion allegations and wait for all hell to break loose?

Check with her what she'd be happy for you to do and be sure that the allegations are true. Looks like you now have evidence that the LL knew there was a problem with damp and that they have done nothing. Did he make deductions from her deposit for the same items he's trying to screw you for-maybe the police would be interested in an attempted fraud if that were the case. If she's happy for you to use the email send it to the tds explaining its source, why give him more of a chance, he's trying to fleece you. IMHO

[Brave New World]

Hi Eos and all others.

Very interesting thread given my own experiences of moving out of a rented house after 3.5 years of living there.

After 6 months she moved it from being managed to direct with here – apart from the place being stone cold with poor insulation and a dodgy roof and needing damp proof causing we lived there happily and took care of it. Even spending the whole day following us moving cleaning it all to get it spotless.

After the work around by the Rent it out Instead landlady and numerous ‘Did you do this??’ accusatory comments (given that she has visited the house many times during the 3 years) of which included a ceiling her husband had but his foot part way through when doing the diy lagging, a broken tray in the fridge that was already cracked on our initial inventory and a mark on the top of the toilet seat........”did you drop something on this?”..........”nah dropped plenty of things through it” and ludicrously accusing us of touching the paint up in the living room when she had done it a few years before!

Anyway, she has tried to sting us for a new carpet. She had said they got a professional cleaner out (on a bank holiday with 2 days notice!!) so asked for a receipt from it and didn’t get one and it went from £78 to £35 all of a sudden. She said the stain could not come out so we need to pay for a new carpet.

Despite claiming it was fake tan, which i know it wasn’t – more of a combo of a few drinks next to the sofa. The stain is a slight orange tint to it and measures approx 20cm by 15cm and tones back into the dark beige carpet. To me this is wear and tear albeit with us admitting our ‘damage’ but to ask for a totally new carpet is quite confusing really.

The carpet is 5 years old and despite her saying it was a good quality carpet (was no more than average) she wants £280 out of a bill of £350 like for like replacement.

With this she has then tried to use the above things a umbrage saying i am not making you pay them but you must pay the carpet.

We are willing to pay for the wet vac but what are your learned opinions guys??? Just feel like renters are basically a back up fund to bail out amateur letters and it is particularly annoying as we have paid the price of dealing direct, waiting for tradesman to come round during the 3 year period so they can quote on things, always paying on time etc etc but then you get shafted!

[Tiger Woods?]

I got a very interesting email from the person who had the tenancy before me over the weekend. (We got to know each other after I moved to the area and into the house that she had just moved out of). She tells me that the house had damp problems whilst she lived there and then it was flooded about a year before we moved in. About half the LL's claim against my deposit is for damp which he says I must have caused by breathing!

I asked for a damp inspection and he wouldn't do it, so now I know why.

The other half of the email goes into territory which would be of interest to the inland revenue and I am fairly certain that the landlord would not want the tax man to see his ex-tenant's description of what she'd witnessed.

I had the dispute service papers all printed out and ready to be posted to the TDS this morning, but now I am wondering what to do? Show this to the letting agent first and give the landlord one last chance to end this all or just send the whole lot to the TDS this morning, including a copy of the email with the tax evasion allegations and wait for all hell to break loose?

I'd stop dealing with these jokers and go to the TDS. You've given them enough opportunities to do the right thing.

I'd be careful about the tax evasion stuff - bit like blackmail to me and would likely not put you in a favorable light...of course you could always pass it onto the HMRC anonymous tip-off line after this has all settled. I would see if you could get a signed statement from the previous tenant about the damp though.

[Eos]

the agent is now offering to stump up some money if the landlord and I will compromise. (they say its too much work and they want ti settled). They aren't stating an amount though but the landlord would get it in any case.

the truth is they haven't done any work so far apart from forward on the landlord's claims and return the undisputed money. I think they've sent me about ten emails, most of which are only a couple of sentences. But next week when I send the case to the TDS, then they WILL have work to do, and lots of it. they haven't even given me one invoice, estimate or receipt for all the work that the landlord claims he had to do.

I don't want to pay anything because the claim is false, so why should I pay my ex-landlord money when I can PROVE that he is lying about half the claim and the other half is wear and tear? In fact, I don't want the agency to give him money either but obviously I can't stop them.

But I guess that if I don't offer something, then i will look unreasonable to the ICE?

[zebbedee]

the agent is now offering to stump up some money if the landlord and I will compromise. (they say its too much work and they want ti settled). They aren't stating an amount though but the landlord would get it in any case.

the truth is they haven't done any work so far apart from forward on the landlord's claims and return the undisputed money. I think they've sent me about ten emails, most of which are only a couple of sentences. But next week when I send the case to the TDS, then they WILL have work to do, and lots of it. they haven't even given me one invoice, estimate or receipt for all the work that the landlord claims he had to do.

I don't want to pay anything because the claim is false, so why should I pay my ex-landlord money when I can PROVE that he is lying about half the claim and the other half is wear and tear? In fact, I don't want the agency to give him money either but obviously I can't stop them.

But I guess that if I don't offer something, then i will look unreasonable to the ICE?

IANAL

But if "I can PROVE that he is lying about half the claim and the other half is wear and tear?" how could you look unreasonable. Reasonable doesn't mean allowing money to be stolen from you.

[sleepwello'nights]

I got a very interesting email from the person who had the tenancy before me over the weekend. (We got to know each other after I moved to the area and into the house that she had just moved out of). She tells me that the house had damp problems whilst she lived there and then it was flooded about a year before we moved in. About half the LL's claim against my deposit is for damp which he says I must have caused by breathing!

I asked for a damp inspection and he wouldn't do it, so now I know why.

The other half of the email goes into territory which would be of interest to the inland revenue and I am fairly certain that the landlord would not want the tax man to see his ex-tenant's description of what she'd witnessed.

I had the dispute service papers all printed out and ready to be posted to the TDS this morning, but now I am wondering what to do? Show this to the letting agent first and give the landlord one last chance to end this all or just send the whole lot to the TDS this morning, including a copy of the email with the tax evasion allegations and wait for all hell to break loose?

Why don't you stop faffing around and start the TDS dispute process. You can ask the previous tenant to make a witness statement on your behalf, it will strengthen your case although I don't think its necessary. The allegations that may be of interest to HMRC are irrelevant to your claim and are hearsay anyway. The previous tenant could raise them but not you. The onus is on the landlord to prove that you did not return the property in the condition it was at the start of the tenancy, fair wear and tear excepted. All you have to do is tell TDS that you disagree with the deductions.

Once the claim is started you can always withdraw it if the landlord returns the disputed amount of the deposit.

[Eos]

I was going to start the TDS last Monday (having given a deadline of last weekend to give all the money back to me). I downloaded the forms and filled them out and got all the documents together. Then I noticed my husband needs to sign too but he's out of the country all week. He's back tomorrow night though, so I will post them on Saturday, unless it gets resolved before then.

An hour ago, I thought there was no chance of a resolution whatsoever.

However, now I actually think it might get resolved before then as I've had an email from the landlord this evening and he's pretty much backing down and now denying all knowledge of the claims. Apparently life is too short...

(PS I was also strongly considering going to the police too to see if I could interest them in the lies-to-obtain-money aspect i.e. attempted fraud.)

[zebbedee]

I was going to start the TDS last Monday (having given a deadline of last weekend to give all the money back to me). I downloaded the forms and filled them out and got all the documents together. Then I noticed my husband needs to sign too but he's out of the country all week. He's back tomorrow night though, so I will post them on Saturday, unless it gets resolved before then.

An hour ago, I thought there was no chance of a resolution whatsoever.

However, now I actually think it might get resolved before then as I've had an email from the landlord this evening and he's pretty much backing down and now denying all knowledge of the claims. Apparently life is too short...

(PS I was also strongly considering going to the police too to see if I could interest them in the lies-to-obtain-money aspect i.e. attempted fraud.)

I you haven't had your money back submit the claims anyway, this may be the LL trying to stall but include it with the claims stuff as it shows there is no reason to withhold the money unless the caveat "without prejudice" is included its an agreement to settle the dispute.

[Eos]

I got an email from the agent on Friday saying they'd been told to make a full repayment of my money and to expect it in my account that day.

Of course, it did not turn up (because the agency are slow even when they need to be quick) but I'll give them to Monday before I start getting upset again.

TBH I never thought the ex-landlord would settle. I sent an email last week saying I intended to contact the police about fraud (and I believed I could prove it). Personally I do not think the police would have been interested (I'd have tried though) but if the police did start investigating then at last my ex-landlord had something to lose by making false claims.

I think that's the problem with the current system... the landlords can make stuff up and they are only back where they started if the TDS finds against them. They have no downside risk.

[abroad]

Good result in the end but why did you not take the advice offered, you seemed very reticent to start the TDS process and were told multiple times to just do that.....