Injin Posted August 10, 2011 Share Posted August 10, 2011 1. Not all concepts are physical or tangible. Counting numbers and first order logic are not 'real' - in the sense you can't go out and empirically study them. They are, however, important, relevant and consistent. And wrong. numbers are incorrect, flawed. Whne you have a concept which you can't find in nature, then concept is innacurate, not nature. 2. We are using the term money to mean two separate things. When I use the term "money" I *DEFINITELY* do not mean a physical token, and I think few people would interpret it that way. Money has to be a physical token as trades take place in reality. 3. Making things homogeneous is curious. It is essential for money, and similar standardisation has brought great benefits to engineering... though this is not without human cost... homogenization improves repeatability, but - perhaps - we need to ask if we want a homogeneous environment - or if people thrive on originality - even if that takes much more effort. I think this is key to the globalisation debate. Yes, but we could (if we realyl wanted to) match peopel up with the objects they actually own simply by being accurate with the paperwork. No effort is made to do this, and that tells the whole story. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leicestersq Posted August 10, 2011 Share Posted August 10, 2011 Yes, you can. You just take peoples promises of future labour and then say they are worth something - this is what a debt based system is all about By your own definition, there is nothing, so there cannot be anything to lend. I accept there is the future promise to repay, but if there is nothing, what do you forward in the first place? There has to be something, and therefore there cannot be nothing. Which is a fine admission there can be an economy without a debt based system of money. Yes, I remember telling you that before, and you vehemently argued against it. Money without debt is perfectly possible. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bloo Loo Posted August 10, 2011 Share Posted August 10, 2011 1. Not all concepts are physical or tangible. Counting numbers and first order logic are not 'real' - in the sense you can't go out and empirically study them. They are, however, important, relevant and consistent. 2. We are using the term money to mean two separate things. When I use the term "money" I *DEFINITELY* do not mean a physical token, and I think few people would interpret it that way. 3. Making things homogeneous is curious. It is essential for money, and similar standardisation has brought great benefits to engineering... though this is not without human cost... homogenization improves repeatability, but - perhaps - we need to ask if we want a homogeneous environment - or if people thrive on originality - even if that takes much more effort. I think this is key to the globalisation debate. infinity does not exist, except in the minds of humans. Likewise, much wealth ALSO does not exist, except in the minds of humans...this is where the money system comes unstuck at the moment, as people with special privileges are able to stock x and lend out x*3 or x*50 of what they say they have. When the lenders of money to these privileged few demand their own money back, the privilged few are caught out...see Credit Crunch 2007. reality is always in charge, even if people think that for a few moments, they are and reality is asleep. Others cite that the balance sheet PROVES the infallability of the system, but as we have seen much on a balance sheet is hope and blather. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Injin Posted August 10, 2011 Share Posted August 10, 2011 By your own definition, there is nothing, so there cannot be anything to lend. I accept there is the future promise to repay, but if there is nothing, what do you forward in the first place? There has to be something, and therefore there cannot be nothing. Nope, because you are trading promises to do things in the future. Me and you in a lift, I promises to cut your hair tommorrow in exchange for you tiling my kitchen the day after. We write this down and then sell the paperwork to someone else. Theres no item or object involved, just a pair of debts. Yes, I remember telling you that before, and you vehemently argued against it. Money without debt is perfectly possible. Link please. It's sceppy who thinks all money is debt, not me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leicestersq Posted August 10, 2011 Share Posted August 10, 2011 Nope, because you are trading promises to do things in the future. Me and you in a lift, I promises to cut your hair tommorrow in exchange for you tiling my kitchen the day after. We write this down and then sell the paperwork to someone else. Theres no item or object involved, just a pair of debts. And if there is nothing, then who would buy that debt, and what with? Until they do, that debt isnt money. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bloo Loo Posted August 10, 2011 Share Posted August 10, 2011 And if there is nothing, then who would buy that debt, and what with? Until they do, that debt isnt money. thats where the bankers come in with the oh so clever financial "instruments" and products and other alchemy, turning the very spark of life into gold. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Injin Posted August 10, 2011 Share Posted August 10, 2011 And if there is nothing, then who would buy that debt, and what with? Until they do, that debt isnt money. Anyone who believes that the promises are good - and they could in turn by it with their own promises. And ofc, someone else might trade their existing real world goods for those promises. Such as housing.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A.steve Posted August 10, 2011 Share Posted August 10, 2011 Likewise, much wealth ALSO does not exist, except in the minds of humans...this is where the money system comes unstuck at the moment, as people with special privileges are able to stock x and lend out x*3 or x*50 of what they say they have. Wealth can ONLY exist in the minds of humans. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Injin Posted August 10, 2011 Share Posted August 10, 2011 Wealth can ONLY exist in the minds of humans. Yes, but you can force your ideas of wealth onto others at gunpoint Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bloo Loo Posted August 10, 2011 Share Posted August 10, 2011 Wealth can ONLY exist in the minds of humans. Whilst this is true, it is a bit out of context to the question of money and its value, I fear . Real value would be the effort you would place to obtain a loaf of bread for example...the effort would depend on the strength of need at the time. and this would vary from individual to individual. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leicestersq Posted August 10, 2011 Share Posted August 10, 2011 Anyone who believes that the promises are good - and they could in turn by it with their own promises. And ofc, someone else might trade their existing real world goods for those promises. Such as housing.... Yes, but what would they exchange for said debt? And even your example is problematic. It doesnt become a debt until the first part of the obligation, the haircut tomorrow or whatever it was, is fulfilled. Until then it isnt really a debt as both sides could default and no one would owe anything, so there isnt really anything to sell anyway. And certainly nothing to buy it with. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Injin Posted August 10, 2011 Share Posted August 10, 2011 (edited) Yes, but what would they exchange for said debt? And even your example is problematic. It doesnt become a debt until the first part of the obligation, the haircut tomorrow or whatever it was, is fulfilled. Until then it isnt really a debt as both sides could default and no one would owe anything, so there isnt really anything to sell anyway. And certainly nothing to buy it with. Oh you can sell get out of jail free cards. As long as you credibly believe the taxman is going to take all your stuff away unless he acquires said cards, they'll have value. Edited August 10, 2011 by Injin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bloo Loo Posted August 10, 2011 Share Posted August 10, 2011 Oh you can sell get out of jail free cards. As long as you credibly believe the taxman is going to take all your stuff away unless he acquires said cards, they'll have value. now, THATS what I call leverage... the stuff of true diplomacy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R K Posted August 10, 2011 Share Posted August 10, 2011 We very nearly have that situation today. Short yields are nominally zero (but not quite). 30 yr govt. yields are nominally 3.6% All this 'debt' money is turning out to be more or less just 'dollars'. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leicestersq Posted August 10, 2011 Share Posted August 10, 2011 Oh you can sell get out of jail free cards. As long as you credibly believe the taxman is going to take all your stuff away unless he acquires said cards, they'll have value. There is nothing remember, certainly no get out of jail free cards. And nothing to tax, by your own definition. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Injin Posted August 10, 2011 Share Posted August 10, 2011 There is nothing remember, certainly no get out of jail free cards. And nothing to tax, by your own definition. You are being obtuse now. First you create debt, then you tax to create demand, then you put your new slaves to work. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
South Lorne Posted August 10, 2011 Share Posted August 10, 2011 If credit/debt was essentially nationalised and was without interest, could that work? Would it be a better system? The justification for mortgages and other consumer-based credit/debt eludes me - outside of short-term overdraft facilities - as does the justification for interest on credible business loans. ...with SVRs on mortgages so low versus inflation it's almost an interest free deal already ..at the expense of savers who are losing capital value and with little interest.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fraggle Posted August 10, 2011 Share Posted August 10, 2011 Money has to be a physical token as trades take place in reality. What are the physical attributes of money? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
South Lorne Posted August 10, 2011 Share Posted August 10, 2011 What are the physical attributes of money? ...none...barter is physical.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Injin Posted August 10, 2011 Share Posted August 10, 2011 What are the physical attributes of money? Depends on what the money is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fraggle Posted August 10, 2011 Share Posted August 10, 2011 Depends on what the money is. What I mean is, does all money have some physical attribute in common? (other than "it exists", that is) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Injin Posted August 10, 2011 Share Posted August 10, 2011 What I mean is, does all money have some physical attribute in common? (other than "it exists", that is) Yes, it has to. Otherwise how would you know what it is? The issue any issuing authroity has is in convincing people that some of the set are genuine and some of the set are not. Generally they do this with elaborate printing methods, franking and the like but as money has gone digitial they have replaced those methods with a big fat moronic bluff. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
South Lorne Posted August 10, 2011 Share Posted August 10, 2011 What I mean is, does all money have some physical attribute in common? (other than "it exists", that is) ..it's an agreed measurement of value between trading parties and it's value changes each minute depending on exchange rates, interest rates and inflation...physically it's worthless paper or metal.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fraggle Posted August 10, 2011 Share Posted August 10, 2011 Yes, it has to. Otherwise how would you know what it is? Marvellous...so what is it? This common physical attribute, I mean. The issue any issuing authroity has is in convincing people that some of the set are genuine and some of the set are not. What makes money genuine or not? If someone outside the authority makes a perfect replica of genuine money, is it genuine? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Injin Posted August 10, 2011 Share Posted August 10, 2011 Marvellous...so what is it? This common physical attribute, I mean. Depends on what the issuing authority picks if it's fiat money, or the most wanted preference of people if it's a free market. What makes money genuine or not? If someone outside the authority makes a perfect replica of genuine money, is it genuine? Yes, obviously. The issuing authority usually (violently) disagrees though. They just makes themselves look daft though in doing so. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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