winkie Posted August 9, 2011 Share Posted August 9, 2011 Thanks for your wise words and clever analysis. Have you lived in Tottenham for the last 10 years? Have you seen what is actually being cut from the services in the area? Have you witnessed with your own eyes services for young people disappear in the last 12 months? Or do you just watch Sky news and phone in radio programmes telling the police to get out the rubber bullets and the water cannons? That area has always been the same far longer than 10 years....but now networking technology has assisted them and the attention they crave....discipline starts at home, some of the homes have never seen discipline only negative attention where nobody cares...this continues throughout their schooling... their badge of honor comes from what most of us would see as criminal behavior....there are the leaders who have easily led foolish followers...these kids are bored, having no aspirations or quality role models in their lives...a few will see the light and realise they are on the road to their own destruction if it continues. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MinceBalls Posted August 9, 2011 Author Share Posted August 9, 2011 That area has always been the same far longer than 10 years....but now networking technology has assisted them and the attention they crave....discipline starts at home, some of the homes have never seen discipline only negative attention where nobody cares...this continues throughout their schooling... their badge of honor comes from what most of us would see as criminal behavior....there are the leaders who have easily led foolish followers...these kids are bored, having no aspirations or quality role models in their lives...a few will see the light and realise they are on the road to their own destruction if it continues. Yes, I agree with your and Kurt's observations. But you are describing what is and not why it has been allowed to happen over a generation or what can be done to solve the issues. I'm not saying I know the answers but cutting the services which directly fund youth organisations and children's services surely cant be the answer? And yes, I am fully aware of the problems in he area beyond 10 years, one would have to be stupid to not know the history of Broadwater Farm but live within 5 minutes of it for a decade! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
winkie Posted August 9, 2011 Share Posted August 9, 2011 If someone tells you you are stupid, useless, good for nothing, worthless....you begin to believe them and act as described...... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tuberider Posted August 9, 2011 Share Posted August 9, 2011 Thanks for your wise words and clever analysis. Have you lived in Tottenham for the last 10 years? Have you seen what is actually being cut from the services in the area? Have you witnessed with your own eyes services for young people disappear in the last 12 months? Or do you just watch Sky news and phone in radio programmes telling the police to get out the rubber bullets and the water cannons? I grew up in tottenham, finsbury park, edmonton, mostly council estates parents and sisters and friends all still there, althought they managed to move out to (marginally) better areas like ponders end/ enfield wash/ edmonton bush hill park borders. i was clever enough to escape. nobody can question my streetwise credentials, if it comes to a north london shithole dick-swinging contest As i said on another thread, the problem is the lack of family structure amongst blacks. They rarely marry or have monogamous relationships with one partner, lots of kids born to very young mothers from lots of different men. Mark Duggan, the scumbag who was shot by the police, himself had 4 kids from different women. No male role models other than what they see on tv in rap videos etc. No discipline or any kind of control from the parent (s). Seen it over and over, nobody can tell me different. The problem is generic and reaches into all the black communities worldwide, which is why they never get anywhere. Look at the USA, Africa, Europe, you name it. The few black communities who do progress, like the ghanaians, have very strong religious values and are very family oriented. It's not really my problem. it's their problem, a black problem. but they make it my problem. Fricking chinese, indians, vietnamese move in and within a generation they have business, educated their kids at the best uni's and own their own homes. A million poles in the UK, all poor and scratching a living at shit jobs, are they rioting ? Blacks have themselves to blame Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MinceBalls Posted August 9, 2011 Author Share Posted August 9, 2011 If someone tells you you are stupid, useless, good for nothing, worthless....you begin to believe them and act as described...... Agreed Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dryrot Posted August 9, 2011 Share Posted August 9, 2011 I grew up in tottenham, finsbury park, edmonton, mostly council estates parents and sisters and friends all still there, althought they managed to move out to (marginally) better areas like ponders end/ enfield wash/ edmonton bush hill park borders. i was clever enough to escape. nobody can question my streetwise credentials, if it comes to a north london shithole dick-swinging contest Liked the expression. Agree with the post, as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dryrot Posted August 9, 2011 Share Posted August 9, 2011 If someone tells you you are stupid, useless, good for nothing, worthless....you begin to believe them and act as described...... You are Shirley Williams and I claim my £5. At least we'll never run out of excuses... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest_when_* Posted August 9, 2011 Share Posted August 9, 2011 Hi all, I’ve been quiet for a while as selling and buying a property, having an 8 week old baby and trying to run a business have been keeping me busy! I thought I’d let you all know though that we completed the sale of our flat in Tottenham on Thursday (the day it all started) and got the keys to our new house in Broadstairs, Kent on the same day. Now I know some of you (including myself) believe that house prices are going to head south for a while yet (I still think we could see 20% or more come off) but there were a number of factors affecting my life that resulted in us purchasing as well as selling. One being that I have 2 young kids and want to settle long term in an area we like with good schools which is worth a bit of a hit for me if house prices go down – I will still have a better quality of life. We have been able to do this and move to our perfect family home without taking on too much mortgage (our LTV = 25%). Just by chance our completion date was set for Thursday and by sheer luck we have avoided the mess that the place is now in. I would have thought that prices in my area in Tottenham would have plunged 20% overnight and I am so relieved my family are not stuck in the middle of it owning an unsellable property. We decided to sell when I started to see a decline in an already poor area; children’s and youth services were being slashed and unemployment among 16-24 year old ethnic groups touched 50%. It looked to me like a disaster waiting to happen and I said to my partner in March that we have to get out before the place turns to sh1t. We could be the last people to complete on a sale out of Tottenham for a while! For what its worth, we put our flat up for sale in April and I decided to go with 5K UNDER what the estate agent suggested. Having looked at equiv properties in the area I was keen to price ours competitively against theirs and it appears it worked as we sold in 2 weeks. Putting it on for a relatively small amount less than what other similar properties are on for is the only way to shift your property quickly. This tactic has probably saved us tens of thousands as we have avoided all the cr@p that is now happening. It’s a shame that more people don’t understand basic market principles but it worked to our advantage so I can’t complain. In case anyone is wondering I still retain my NS&I indexed linked bonds and some gold. I sold out of my FTSE investments when it hit 5K on the way up as it looked like more stress than it was worth. If it goes below 4.5K I’ll probably start to re-invest in a tracker on a monthly basis. And there my story ends! Edit: spelling Perfect timing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kurt Barlow Posted August 9, 2011 Share Posted August 9, 2011 Yes, I agree with your and Kurt's observations. But you are describing what is and not why it has been allowed to happen over a generation or what can be done to solve the issues. I'm not saying I know the answers but cutting the services which directly fund youth organisations and children's services surely cant be the answer? And yes, I am fully aware of the problems in he area beyond 10 years, one would have to be stupid to not know the history of Broadwater Farm but live within 5 minutes of it for a decade! I was talking to my Dad last night. He was born in 43 and my Grandfather had a chemists shop in Green Lanes until 1978. Dad was saying the first generation in the 1950's / 60's were polite, well dressed, and often regular church goers. He remembers selling no end of sanitary towels to West Indians who would use them as face masks - due to the Smog What happened in between I don't know but the generation of today is not the same as the smiley cheery Enrolled Nurses and London transport workers who came here 50-60 years ago. Drugs, break down in nucleated families, loss of religous conviction, unemployment..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kurt Barlow Posted August 9, 2011 Share Posted August 9, 2011 I grew up in tottenham, finsbury park, edmonton, mostly council estates parents and sisters and friends all still there, althought they managed to move out to (marginally) better areas like ponders end/ enfield wash/ edmonton bush hill park borders. i was clever enough to escape. nobody can question my streetwise credentials, if it comes to a north london shithole dick-swinging contest As i said on another thread, the problem is the lack of family structure amongst blacks. They rarely marry or have monogamous relationships with one partner, lots of kids born to very young mothers from lots of different men. Mark Duggan, the scumbag who was shot by the police, himself had 4 kids from different women. No male role models other than what they see on tv in rap videos etc. No discipline or any kind of control from the parent (s). Seen it over and over, nobody can tell me different. The problem is generic and reaches into all the black communities worldwide, which is why they never get anywhere. Look at the USA, Africa, Europe, you name it. The few black communities who do progress, like the ghanaians, have very strong religious values and are very family oriented. It's not really my problem. it's their problem, a black problem. but they make it my problem. Fricking chinese, indians, vietnamese move in and within a generation they have business, educated their kids at the best uni's and own their own homes. A million poles in the UK, all poor and scratching a living at shit jobs, are they rioting ? Blacks have themselves to blame Good post and I have heard several black people make the same observation Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LC1 Posted August 9, 2011 Share Posted August 9, 2011 I grew up in tottenham, finsbury park, edmonton, mostly council estates parents and sisters and friends all still there, althought they managed to move out to (marginally) better areas like ponders end/ enfield wash/ edmonton bush hill park borders. i was clever enough to escape. nobody can question my streetwise credentials, if it comes to a north london shithole dick-swinging contest As i said on another thread, the problem is the lack of family structure amongst blacks. They rarely marry or have monogamous relationships with one partner, lots of kids born to very young mothers from lots of different men. Mark Duggan, the scumbag who was shot by the police, himself had 4 kids from different women. No male role models other than what they see on tv in rap videos etc. No discipline or any kind of control from the parent (s). Seen it over and over, nobody can tell me different. The problem is generic and reaches into all the black communities worldwide, which is why they never get anywhere. Look at the USA, Africa, Europe, you name it. The few black communities who do progress, like the ghanaians, have very strong religious values and are very family oriented. It's not really my problem. it's their problem, a black problem. but they make it my problem. Fricking chinese, indians, vietnamese move in and within a generation they have business, educated their kids at the best uni's and own their own homes. A million poles in the UK, all poor and scratching a living at shit jobs, are they rioting ? Blacks have themselves to blame Interesting post, and although it offends my liberal politically-correct sensibilities, I find it hard to dispute your logic. The culture of hopelessness and irresponsibility seems to have become endemic. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LC1 Posted August 9, 2011 Share Posted August 9, 2011 If someone tells you you are stupid, useless, good for nothing, worthless....you begin to believe them and act as described...... Who is being told this, and by whom? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
okaycuckoo Posted August 9, 2011 Share Posted August 9, 2011 Hi all, I've been quiet for a while as selling and buying a property, having an 8 week old baby and trying to run a business have been keeping me busy! I thought I'd let you all know though that we completed the sale of our flat in Tottenham on Thursday (the day it all started) and got the keys to our new house in Broadstairs, Kent on the same day. Now I know some of you (including myself) believe that house prices are going to head south for a while yet (I still think we could see 20% or more come off) but there were a number of factors affecting my life that resulted in us purchasing as well as selling. One being that I have 2 young kids and want to settle long term in an area we like with good schools which is worth a bit of a hit for me if house prices go down – I will still have a better quality of life. We have been able to do this and move to our perfect family home without taking on too much mortgage (our LTV = 25%). Just by chance our completion date was set for Thursday and by sheer luck we have avoided the mess that the place is now in. I would have thought that prices in my area in Tottenham would have plunged 20% overnight and I am so relieved my family are not stuck in the middle of it owning an unsellable property. We decided to sell when I started to see a decline in an already poor area; children's and youth services were being slashed and unemployment among 16-24 year old ethnic groups touched 50%. It looked to me like a disaster waiting to happen and I said to my partner in March that we have to get out before the place turns to sh1t. We could be the last people to complete on a sale out of Tottenham for a while! For what its worth, we put our flat up for sale in April and I decided to go with 5K UNDER what the estate agent suggested. Having looked at equiv properties in the area I was keen to price ours competitively against theirs and it appears it worked as we sold in 2 weeks. Putting it on for a relatively small amount less than what other similar properties are on for is the only way to shift your property quickly. This tactic has probably saved us tens of thousands as we have avoided all the cr@p that is now happening. It's a shame that more people don't understand basic market principles but it worked to our advantage so I can't complain. In case anyone is wondering I still retain my NS&I indexed linked bonds and some gold. I sold out of my FTSE investments when it hit 5K on the way up as it looked like more stress than it was worth. If it goes below 4.5K I'll probably start to re-invest in a tracker on a monthly basis. And there my story ends! Edit: spelling Good post and good luck. Key words: family & business. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mrs Bear Posted August 9, 2011 Share Posted August 9, 2011 yep, cutting front line services, yet I bet fat redundancy monies or promotions for the managers. Thats is also the Tories fault...Government REALLY needs to act on Public sector fraud. Boll*x. It was under Labour that public sector salaries soared to fat cat levels. Labour could have cracked down hard on PS fraud - they chose not to because they were afraid of losing votes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clockslinger Posted August 9, 2011 Share Posted August 9, 2011 Well done, good timing, top demonstration of skill and all that. Still, I cant help but think the celebratory note at having sold to someone else just when things go badly wrong smacks of "f3ck the other guy"...an emotion running right through our sad little country. It is an attitude fuelling the behaviour the buyers of your flat are seeing outside their window, the behaviour manifested by their bankers, their politicians and their greedy tax avoiding business leaders. Yep, it&s "fu3k you" all round, so no blame on you. Still it is sad that this is what we, who pass as grown men, have become, though. Sadder still that such values get applauded. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
winkie Posted August 10, 2011 Share Posted August 10, 2011 Who is being told this, and by whom? Some parents do as a form of negative discipline....good discipline is not an easy job, it is very hard, it has to be consistent...no good saying you can't do that, you are a bad boy today, then letting them get away with it tomorrow....good discipline has good love behind it to reinforce it...it is not the child that is bad it is their behaviour that is bad......how can parents that have never had stability in their lives pass it on to their kids? Another big problem is kids spending too much time watching violent dvds and games.....some of them are truly horrific....do the parents know they are watching them? do they care? do the parents just want is the quiet life for themselves? is a child like a commodity? Another problem is too many parents are treating their kids like friends, they share their problems with them thus burdening them instead of keeping it to themselves....there is no hierarchy, their is no structure in lives, no lines that can not be crossed. If a child sees their parents treat others badly, steal, take drugs etc etc .......it is not surprising some will follow.....so yes there is a break down of morals, values,family values, security. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MinceBalls Posted August 10, 2011 Author Share Posted August 10, 2011 Well done, good timing, top demonstration of skill and all that. Still, I cant help but think the celebratory note at having sold to someone else just when things go badly wrong smacks of "f3ck the other guy"...an emotion running right through our sad little country. It is an attitude fuelling the behaviour the buyers of your flat are seeing outside their window, the behaviour manifested by their bankers, their politicians and their greedy tax avoiding business leaders. Yep, it&s "fu3k you" all round, so no blame on you. Still it is sad that this is what we, who pass as grown men, have become, though. Sadder still that such values get applauded. I have to say that I certainly don't have a 'f3ck the other guy' attitude, I can't help the timing of all of this and am sad it has happened in a place I hoped would improve. To a certain extent I feel sorry for them but I can't control what happens in Tottenham and they purchased the flat of their own free will, I didn't force them to do it. I am celebratory not because I got out just at the right time by selling to someone else but because I have moved my family to a place I feel we will be happy for a long time. That is cause for celebration. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LC1 Posted August 10, 2011 Share Posted August 10, 2011 Some parents do as a form of negative discipline....good discipline is not an easy job, it is very hard, it has to be consistent...no good saying you can't do that, you are a bad boy today, then letting them get away with it tomorrow....good discipline has good love behind it to reinforce it...it is not the child that is bad it is their behaviour that is bad......how can parents that have never had stability in their lives pass it on to their kids? Another big problem is kids spending too much time watching violent dvds and games.....some of them are truly horrific....do the parents know they are watching them? do they care? do the parents just want is the quiet life for themselves? is a child like a commodity? Another problem is too many parents are treating their kids like friends, they share their problems with them thus burdening them instead of keeping it to themselves....there is no hierarchy, their is no structure in lives, no lines that can not be crossed. If a child sees their parents treat others badly, steal, take drugs etc etc .......it is not surprising some will follow.....so yes there is a break down of morals, values,family values, security. Thanks, I see what you're saying. Not being a parent myself, I'm somewhat uncomfortable about ascribing blame to parents for the sins of their kids - yet it seems undeniable that an environment of social degradation in certain areas has combined with an unwillingness on the part of parents (and educators/police/wider society etc) to instil values and discipline (& perhaps love, as you rightly point out) in successive generations of disaffected youth. Very sad to watch. Not so sure about the old DVD/video game idea though, I've watched plenty of tv violence and (hand on heart) have never maimed/killed anyone! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TeddyBear Posted August 11, 2011 Share Posted August 11, 2011 OP - if you come back, would be really interested to know the demographic of your buyers. Local to the area? Gentrifiers? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
islington_n7 Posted August 11, 2011 Share Posted August 11, 2011 I grew up in tottenham, finsbury park, edmonton, mostly council estates parents and sisters and friends all still there, althought they managed to move out to (marginally) better areas like ponders end/ enfield wash/ edmonton bush hill park borders. i was clever enough to escape. nobody can question my streetwise credentials, if it comes to a north london shithole dick-swinging contest As i said on another thread, the problem is the lack of family structure amongst blacks. They rarely marry or have monogamous relationships with one partner, lots of kids born to very young mothers from lots of different men. Mark Duggan, the scumbag who was shot by the police, himself had 4 kids from different women. No male role models other than what they see on tv in rap videos etc. No discipline or any kind of control from the parent (s). Seen it over and over, nobody can tell me different. The problem is generic and reaches into all the black communities worldwide, which is why they never get anywhere. Look at the USA, Africa, Europe, you name it. The few black communities who do progress, like the ghanaians, have very strong religious values and are very family oriented. It's not really my problem. it's their problem, a black problem. but they make it my problem. Fricking chinese, indians, vietnamese move in and within a generation they have business, educated their kids at the best uni's and own their own homes. A million poles in the UK, all poor and scratching a living at shit jobs, are they rioting ? Blacks have themselves to blame As a black man I need to point out that this is not a 'black' problem or a problem with 'black men'! Unlike the poster, I didn't grow up in a deprived council estate area, the family, friends, collegues and aquantances I have who are black tend to be highly educated, professional, taxpayers living in smart districts around the country/world. Many own their own business, most are married and in general the demographic seems to follow the trend of the rest of the country and western world So what is the problem? Inner city poverty. Unlike the poster, I do know what it is like to be a black man, and I'm affraid it's difficult to get ahead even when one has a reasonable start in life - therefore these guys do not stand a chance! How is this your problem? It really isn't if you don't want it to be, but get your facts right. It's not a problem with black men, but a problem of inner city poverty - a seroslty debilitating affliction that black people are more likely to be affected by! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tuberider Posted August 11, 2011 Share Posted August 11, 2011 As a black man I need to point out that this is not a 'black' problem or a problem with 'black men'! Unlike the poster, I didn't grow up in a deprived council estate area, the family, friends, collegues and aquantances I have who are black tend to be highly educated, professional, taxpayers living in smart districts around the country/world. Many own their own business, most are married and in general the demographic seems to follow the trend of the rest of the country and western world So what is the problem? Inner city poverty. Unlike the poster, I do know what it is like to be a black man, and I'm affraid it's difficult to get ahead even when one has a reasonable start in life - therefore these guys do not stand a chance! How is this your problem? It really isn't if you don't want it to be, but get your facts right. It's not a problem with black men, but a problem of inner city poverty - a seroslty debilitating affliction that black people are more likely to be affected by! Sorry I don't buy it. The vast majority of immigrant groups end up poor and in the inner cities. The vast majority escape to more affluent suburbs. You can see it with the Jews, Greeks, Turks, Indians, Chinese etc (been there myself, being the child of immigrants.) Why can they escape yet the black 'community' cannot ? You are not going to tell me that the blacks got any more racism than the Hasidic Jew, or Indians fresh off the boat who can barely speak English. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
islington_n7 Posted August 11, 2011 Share Posted August 11, 2011 Sorry I don't buy it. The vast majority of immigrant groups end up poor and in the inner cities. The vast majority escape to more affluent suburbs. You can see it with the Jews, Greeks, Turks, Indians, Chinese etc (been there myself, being the child of immigrants.) Why can they escape yet the black 'community' cannot ? You are not going to tell me that the blacks got any more racism than the Hasidic Jew, or Indians fresh off the boat who can barely speak English. You claim in your first post to be clever, or at least clever enough to escape your inherited hell. However you fail to pick up on the subtle point I'm making. So let me be explicit - your assessment of black people is inaccurate and localised to the very specific inner city areas you speak of - this is not representative of all black people or even the black community. Your judgments on black men specifically are both offensive, inaccurate and you're clearly attempting to reinforce a negative sterotype. In context, not all black people live in Tottenham,in ghettos, have several children to different women or claim benefit and live in council houses - most black people are like myself in that we have decent jobs, own property, and give our kids the best start in life. To reiterate, this is a poverty problem and not one of race! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tuberider Posted August 12, 2011 Share Posted August 12, 2011 (edited) You claim in your first post to be clever, or at least clever enough to escape your inherited hell. However you fail to pick up on the subtle point I'm making. So let me be explicit - your assessment of black people is inaccurate and localised to the very specific inner city areas you speak of - this is not representative of all black people or even the black community. Your judgments on black men specifically are both offensive, inaccurate and you're clearly attempting to reinforce a negative sterotype. In context, not all black people live in Tottenham,in ghettos, have several children to different women or claim benefit and live in council houses - most black people are like myself in that we have decent jobs, own property, and give our kids the best start in life. To reiterate, this is a poverty problem and not one of race! I very much doubt that the majority of black men are like yourself. I would think only about 30%. I repeat, poverty is a symptom and not the cause. You've got it the wrong way around. If it were simply a problem of poverty then all poor people would be confined to ghettoes indefinetly. You conveniently overlook my argument that other immigrant groups manage to escape the poverty cycle and elevate themselves out of the ghettoes, yet the vast majority of blacks do not. There is something going on inside the black community that hamstrings them - be it fatherless households, lack of any kind of work ethic or something else. I am a bit amused by your accusations that I am reinforcing a negative sterotype. Do you not think that black 'culture', where violence, drug taking and murder of your own kind are seen as something to be admired, respected and emulated, do not contribute at all to negative stereotypes of black men ? Edited August 12, 2011 by Tuberider Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Will! Posted August 12, 2011 Share Posted August 12, 2011 It's not a problem with black men, but a problem of inner city poverty - a seroslty debilitating affliction that black people are more likely to be affected by! Why are black people more likely to be affected by inner city poverty, as compared to any other non-white ethnic group? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
longtomsilver Posted August 15, 2011 Share Posted August 15, 2011 Why are black people more likely to be affected by inner city poverty, as compared to any other non-white ethnic group? it's all down to life chances, an old banking acquaintance of mine from Ghana studied at Harvard (his father was a colonel or something) came to the UK, reverted to type and knocked up a local bird so that he had indefinite leave to remain in Blighty (Elephant and Castle) - he told me this and added that he would take advantage of the right to buy, take the profit and finish building his very plush villa in his birth country. I stopped over at his flat a few times after we'd been out on the beer and his flat was effectively an immigration centre for other - have to say 'highly educated' black people who mostly worked the tills at Tesco. Last time I looked him up he was a very successful oil trader still with same partner (now wife). So that's it really, there is no middle ground for black people as they have to work harder to dispel the stereotypes that other races can get away with - how many white people do you know that play the system, little productivity and still manage to hold onto their jobs 30% of the staff?? If your black and bone idle goodbye job. To summise, loads of black doctors, lawyers, bankers. Tonnes and tonnes of underclass blacks and not many in the middle. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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