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Capitalism In Crisis, A Warning From History: Eighty Years Ago, A Banking Collapse Devastated Europe, Triggering War. Today, Faith In The Free Markets

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http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2022993/DOMINIC-SANDBROOK-Capitalism-crisis-warning-history-Eighty-years-ago-banking-collapse-devastated-Europe-triggering-war-Today-faith-free-markets-faltering-again.html

Exactly 80 years ago, international capitalism stood on the verge of meltdown.

The collapse of the banking system in the summer of 1931 sent shockwaves through Europe, bringing governments to their knees and thousands out onto the streets.

In the United States, an increasingly careworn president and his congressional critics fought a bitter battle over government spending and tax rises.

And in Britain, with the Labour government broken by the economic crisis, a Conservative-dominated coalition imposed the deepest spending cuts in a generation, slashing benefits in an attempt to restore confidence in the nation’s finances.

With the banks refusing to lend, and millions of people thrown out of work, capitalism itself seemed utterly discredited.

.....

Only last week, for example, the Tory MP Douglas Carswell suggested that ‘the free market all too often turns out not to be a free market at all, but a corporatist racket for the few’.

Modern Conservatives, he said, should be ‘as suspicious of Big Business and Corporatism as we have been of Big Government’.

Very bearish in the national press.

They are even daring to suggest everything is being run for the benefit of the large corporations.

Still I'm sure next week will be better...

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Only last week, for example, the Tory MP Douglas Carswell suggested that ‘the free market all too often turns out not to be a free market at all, but a corporatist racket for the few’.

Yes, I would agree with that! :huh:

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This is the Mail???????

And with house prices having soared and banks refusing to lend, they find it impossible to get onto the property ladder.

As a result, the old Conservative dream of a ‘property-owning democracy’ is increasingly reserved for the silver-haired.

Most experts recognise that home-ownership is one of the keys to a stable, prosperous, hard-working society — yet since 1997, home ownership among people in their 20s has steadily fallen.

Suggesting the high house prices aren't such a good thing? Yes, they still follow it up with "banks not lending" but it's a start.

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Only last week, for example, the Tory MP Douglas Carswell suggested that 'the free market all too often turns out not to be a free market at all, but a corporatist racket for the few'.

State The obvious, then do nothing about it. He's a politician. That's his job.

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State The obvious, then do nothing about it. He's a politician. That's his job.

Not my words Mr Milton, just a cut and paste from Mr Teripoff's DM quote!

Pretty sure the Conservatives were quite "religious" about the "free market" and "choice". :huh:

And now I have the choice of who sends me my electricity bill! :blink:

The electricity is still the same though, if a bit more expensive! :(

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Not my words Mr Milton, just a cut and paste from Mr Teripoff's DM quote!

Pretty sure the Conservatives were quite "religious" about the "free market" and "choice". :huh:

And now I have the choice of who sends me my electricity bill! :blink:

The electricity is still the same though, if a bit more expensive! :(

The quality of electricity hasn't improved and I'd like to know would the utilities treasury contribution be greater if they hadn't been privatised over the past 25 years or so. All we've seen is prices increase.

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http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2022993/DOMINIC-SANDBROOK-Capitalism-crisis-warning-history-Eighty-years-ago-banking-collapse-devastated-Europe-triggering-war-Today-faith-free-markets-faltering-again.html

Very bearish in the national press.

They are even daring to suggest everything is being run for the benefit of the large corporations.

Still I'm sure next week will be better...

One of the benefits of the EU is that another European war is now unthinkable.

Save the civil wars in the Balkans (which were inevitable and had only been postponed by Yugoslavian Communist rule), Europe has been at peace for nearly 70 years. Probably the longest period since Pax Romana.

Historically, Europe has been a continent at war for centuries - only punctuated by periods of peace.

However, this thirst for conflict still exists. Instead of fighting in Europe the theatres of war have been transferred to less fortunate parts of the globe such as Korea, Vietnam, the Middle-East and more recently Iraq and Afghanistan.

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What free markets ??

When govt bails out bankers that is not a free market.

When legal tenders laws give the central bank monopoly to rig rates that is not a free market.

When banks have sole monopoly to create money that is not a free market.

Nearly half of the employees in the UK work for the state. That is not a free market.

The only problem with free markets is that we barely have any.

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The quality of electricity hasn't improved and I'd like to know would the utilities treasury contribution be greater if they hadn't been privatised over the past 25 years or so. All we've seen is prices increase.

Mr Teripoff!

I suspect we are paying a "skim" to the "corporate racket" Mr Carswell suggested! :huh:

Does anybody else believe this too? :blink:

Are ALL Conservatives saying this?

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Nice to read Douglas Carswell's comments.

The idea of a free market is just that; an idea.

A free market can never truly exist so long as the forces of ego-mania, megalomania, sociopathy and psychopathy remain a feature of the human psyche.

Give some people an inch and they will take a mile; some people have a pathological need to dominate everyone else and that's why belief that free markets deliver optimal outcomes for society are naive in the extreme.

The forces that govern the interaction of matter from sub-atomic particles to galaxies and beyond, namely strong, weak, gravity and electo-magnetic have their parallels in human society.

The entity may start off in a state of equilbrium (the Universe/Human Society) but will eventually coagulate into clusters.

Benevolent-attractive and malign-coercive forces form (stars, black holes/celebrities, magnates) and order otherwise free-independent bodies into orbit around them.

Some such forces enhance life (comedians, actors, sport men & women); others destroy it (media barons, oligarchs, corrupt politicians).

I knew this as a 12 year old. I despaired at Thatcher's dogma but find some relief in Mr Carswell's recent comments.

The Science of Emergence.

Edited by nmarks

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Give some people an inch and they will take a mile; some people have a pathological need to dominate everyone else and that's why belief that free markets deliver optimal outcomes for society are naive in the extreme.

That is also the reason socialism always ends in utter economic ruin, at best, and persistent belief to the contrary is naive if not faintly evil.

Capitalism delivers far better outcomes for society.

Yes there are excesses, usually due to 'middle way' governments' refusal to stop kicking cans down the road.

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That is also the reason socialism always ends in utter economic ruin, at best, and persistent belief to the contrary is naive if not faintly evil.

I might agree if there had ever been a socialist state. Most(all?) of those lauded as such are actually nothing but so the evidence is rather lacking.

Personally, I doubt free markets ever existed. They were just a fantasy - dreamt up to make go-getting types think they had a chance. I think you had something like state monopoly capitalism from around 1900-70. Since then it has increasingly looked like global corporate oligarchy.

Edited by StainlessSteelCat

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That is also the reason socialism always ends in utter economic ruin, at best, and persistent belief to the contrary is naive if not faintly evil.

Yes, they are two sides of the same bad coin - a coin flawed by the human failings I mentioned earlier (and others).

Capitalism delivers far better outcomes for society.

Capitalism has its downsides. Pollution from cars, lung cancer from cigarettes and of course HPI.

Hormone imbalance, the under-developed amygdala and the conniving of influential secretive cabals all contribute to the corrupting of the innocent and the emergence of the madness of crowds.

A love of understanding, a passion for philosophy, an understanding of self and a consideration for wider society would address a lot of these problems.

If humans can evolve away from the former and toward the latter the promise offered by the theory of free markets will come significantly closer.

The problem is we're just not sufficiently evolved to make free markets work yet, in the same way we're not sufficiently evolved to fly by flapping our arms.

The same can be said of any means by which humans - in their present state of evolution - try to organise their societies. We are imperfect and that's why from time to time our societies crash.

Edited by nmarks

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http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2022993/DOMINIC-SANDBROOK-Capitalism-crisis-warning-history-Eighty-years-ago-banking-collapse-devastated-Europe-triggering-war-Today-faith-free-markets-faltering-again.html

Yet at the same time, banks are refusing to lend to ordinary families and small businesses.

That's a deliberately confusing rant pointing the finger at anything and everything other than the fact that house prices are overvalued and need to fall considerably to rebalance the economy. The nasty mean bankers won't lend money, oh no! It was lending that caused the problem in the first place, well vendor financing to paper over the failed economic policies of the past 30 years.

This article below sheds more light on the real issues, the huge concentrations of wealth and power in the hands of the 0.01%.

An Investment Manager's View on the Top 1%

http://sociology.ucsc.edu/whorulesamerica/power/investment_manager.html

Edited by enrieb

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This is a strange thread.

The headline has a stark warning from history that failed capitalism leads to war.

Yet, most folk seem to be bothered about the former and not the latter.

Perhaps, that's evidence that our lives here in the 'West' have been wrapped in cotton wool for too long.

War is the ultimate in human suffering - losing a chunk of your wealth isn't.

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This is a strange thread.

The headline has a stark warning from history that failed capitalism leads to war.

Yet, most folk seem to be bothered about the former and not the latter.

Perhaps, that's evidence that our lives here in the 'West' have been wrapped in cotton wool for too long.

War is the ultimate in human suffering - losing a chunk of your wealth isn't.

It became a war because policy makers tried to postpone the inevitable, they failed at every level to deal with the problem. The financial imbalances caused in the run up to the great depression caused a boom followed by a market crash, no one wanted to deal with the bust so trade barriers and protectionist policies were implemented, and when goods and services can no longer cross borders then standing armies will. A lot of inflation can be sneaked through at a time of war and a hell of a lot of debt can be written off.

The economic crisis, became a political crisis, which morphed into a geo-political crisis, which led to war. Of course there were many other factors too, but the key factor linking all of them is the inability to deal with the fundamental problem caused by the 1920s financial bubble (the 1920s bubble which was a consequence of failure to deal with other problems relating to WW1, debt, war repatriations, trade imbalances, the financial relationship of the debtor british empire with the creditor USA etc..)

Losing a chunk of your wealth leads to the conditions for war and conflict, see weimar republic 1923, or hyperinflation of the former Yugoslavia 1989.

Edited by enrieb

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http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2022993/DOMINIC-SANDBROOK-Capitalism-crisis-warning-history-Eighty-years-ago-banking-collapse-devastated-Europe-triggering-war-Today-faith-free-markets-faltering-again.html

Very bearish in the national press.

They are even daring to suggest everything is being run for the benefit of the large corporations.

Still I'm sure next week will be better...

Thanks for the link. Recently, at work, we had a discussion about how we could attract graduates. What no one mentioned (because they couldn't see beyond their own experience) was that the prospect of a career, (that is a better life for themselves and their family gained through work, experience, development of skills and taking on of increasing responsibility) no longer exists for an entire generation. As the article mentions, this is something we haven't experienced in this country since before WWII.

This is saying nothing new to the forum, and the reasons for this are the subject of numerous discussion. Outside of this forum, most people I meet are still unaware of this.They still talk of 'education' ,'careers' and 'property ladders' as if they still exist.

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http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2022993/DOMINIC-SANDBROOK-Capitalism-crisis-warning-history-Eighty-years-ago-banking-collapse-devastated-Europe-triggering-war-Today-faith-free-markets-faltering-again.html

That's a deliberately confusing rant pointing the finger at anything and everything other than the fact that house prices are overvalued and need to fall considerably to rebalance the economy. The nasty mean bankers won't lend money, oh no! It was lending that caused the problem in the first place, well vendor financing to paper over the failed economic policies of the past 30 years.

Absolutely 100% Bang On The Nail. ;)

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What free markets ??

When govt bails out bankers that is not a free market.

When legal tenders laws give the central bank monopoly to rig rates that is not a free market.

When banks have sole monopoly to create money that is not a free market.

Nearly half of the employees in the UK work for the state. That is not a free market.

The only problem with free markets is that we barely have any.

How about supermarkets? Free market, resulting in oligopoly and knackering of suppliers and "competition". Because the "free market DOES NOT WORK . It is an idealised model already half baked when Adam (Smith!) was a lad.

What is strange is that if anyone tries to defend socialism or communism on the basis of an argument "we've never had true socialism/communism" they are disparaged. Substitute the words "free market" and lo, a million dickheads nod in sage agreement because they once saw a supply demand graph doing their economics GCSE.

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How about supermarkets? Free market, resulting in oligopoly and knackering of suppliers and "competition". Because the "free market DOES NOT WORK . It is an idealised model already half baked when Adam (Smith!) was a lad.

What is strange is that if anyone tries to defend socialism or communism on the basis of an argument "we've never had true socialism/communism" they are disparaged. Substitute the words "free market" and lo, a million dickheads nod in sage agreement because they once saw a supply demand graph doing their economics GCSE.

Supermarkets? That'd be the shareholder backed ltd companies with much favourable legisaltion to keep the little guy out wouldn't it?

A free market is simply a venue where when you refuse to trade with someone after they make an offer, you are left unharmed by them.

That's all it is.

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This is a strange thread.

The headline has a stark warning from history that failed capitalism leads to war.

Yet, most folk seem to be bothered about the former and not the latter.

Perhaps, that's evidence that our lives here in the 'West' have been wrapped in cotton wool for too long.

War is the ultimate in human suffering - losing a chunk of your wealth isn't.

War always comes as a surprise to many people at the time even when in retrospect it seems obvious it was coming. This certainly seems to have happened in 1914. It is a bit simplistic to lay all the blame for WW2 on the Great. Depression since it was in many ways triggered by the same unresolved economic and geopolitical issues as WW1. Unfortunately our current global situation seems to mirror in many ways the worst of the run up to both world conflicts. For example as in 1914 the dominant global military and financial nation for half a century is starting to look vulnerable. Shifts in economic production are leading to the rise of new powers who are starting to flex their muscles. There is increasing competition for scarce resources. At the same time we have increasing financial instability and the danger of growing disputes over trade. It is not going to take much to light the fuse to the powder keg. In fact the proliferation of small wars involving some of the worlds major military alliances such as NATO should be a red warning light to everyone. Sooner or later one of these 'limited' conflicts may spiral into something major.

One thing that happened when the Berlin Wall came down was the destruction of a bi polar world order that supplied a limited degree of stability and structure to world politics. It also created a power vacuum that others have rushed to fill. I am not sure that in a decade or twos time we will be quite so keen to celebrate the demise of the Soviet Union as we once were. That is of course if we are still all alive to care. Personally I only give our industrial civilisation an even money chance of making it to the end of the 21st century.

Edited by stormymonday_2011

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One of the benefits of the EU is that another European war is now unthinkable.

Save the civil wars in the Balkans (which were inevitable and had only been postponed by Yugoslavian Communist rule), Europe has been at peace for nearly 70 years. Probably the longest period since Pax Romana.

Historically, Europe has been a continent at war for centuries - only punctuated by periods of peace.

However, this thirst for conflict still exists. Instead of fighting in Europe the theatres of war have been transferred to less fortunate parts of the globe such as Korea, Vietnam, the Middle-East and more recently Iraq and Afghanistan.

This is a strange thread.

The headline has a stark warning from history that failed capitalism leads to war.

Yet, most folk seem to be bothered about the former and not the latter.

Yup, civil war won't happen in Europe, no no, it will be Russia/China/USA/Europe type war. Its been sixty years since the last major clash between these powers, the tech gap has significantly narrowed as well. With the western powers also having gold plated weapons which are extremely effective but small in number.

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Last year Barclays boss Bob Diamond pocketed an incredible £6.5 million - and that's on top of his £8 million-plus annual pay package

Does anyone really believe that if this man fell down the stairs of whatever mansion he inhabits and broke his neck that anything would really change? Would he- in fact- leave a 14.5 million hole behind him? Or would the world continue more or less unchanged?

I'm all in favour of people being appropriately rewarded for their work and talents- but remuneration on this scale is a symptom of a sick system- Diamonds rewards are not a reflection of his relative value to the world but a reflection of the ability of the well connected to appropriate wealth via a crony capitalism that has nothing to do with free markets.

And those that reflexively defend the likes of Diamond on the basis that they support free markets are just supplying ammunition to their opponents.

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I might agree if there had ever been a socialist state. Most(all?) of those lauded as such are actually nothing but so the evidence is rather lacking.

Oh, hello One True Scotsman Fallacy, nice to see you again.

Personally, I doubt free markets ever existed. They were just a fantasy - dreamt up to make go-getting types think they had a chance. I think you had something like state monopoly capitalism from around 1900-70. Since then it has increasingly looked like global corporate oligarchy.

Markets aren't an invention, they're a natural phenomenon.

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I'm all in favour of people being appropriately rewarded for their work and talents- but remuneration on this scale is a symptom of a sick system- Diamonds rewards are not a reflection of his relative value to the world but a reflection of the ability of the well connected to appropriate wealth via a crony capitalism that has nothing to do with free markets.

+1

Rewards are so detached from achievements these days it's ridiculous. It's only due to the current crony capitalism, and Diamond's proximity to the money creation process, that has enabled him to grab so much.

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  • 331 Brexit, House prices and Summer 2020

    1. 1. Including the effects Brexit, where do you think average UK house prices will be relative to now in June 2020?


      • down 5% +
      • down 2.5%
      • Even
      • up 2.5%
      • up 5%



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