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In Defence Of The 'sheeple'


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This is why the USA system of winner takes all - trashes society.

The greediest money grabbers get themselves into power then fiddle the system to their whole advantage eg US/UK financials - also we see whats happening in the UK as the Eton/toffs are trying their utmost to destroy our welfare systems for the poorest in society. (whilst letting their Big Business mates outsource skilled jobs)

They have been steadily eroding it (ie not allowing social housing to be built since the 70's) to reduce us to the state USA is in with millions on emergency food vouchers living underground in storm drains.

Constant threats to privatise NHS so the rich can extract even more money out of you thru corrupt medical insurance companies that will not pay out or argue when you come to make a claim if you fall ill.

The ultimate endgame is corrupt India - where 1 million die every year from starvation and unavailability of basic medical care - whilst their Govt blows Billions on Space and military hardware.

Sometimes, Erranta, you gome out with the msot succint gems - I don't understand this bipolar aspect to you that you display here in HPC...

I tell my little story again.

When I was about 25 (early 80s) we wanted a mortgage.

I just wanted a normal capital & interest mortgage.

The crook (salesman) offered a thing called an endowment mortgage.

He told me I would have to pay the interest only ..... plus buy into an endowment that would pay back more than the loan.....I'd make a profit.

I asked a simple question........ (I was not formally qualified in any form of economics.)

............"Can you guarantee there will be enough return to repay the capital".

He said

........ "No"

I said

........"Feck off"

end of little story

...and that's where you failed.

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I haven't met a financial advisor, banker, estate agent, mortgage advisor, professional, reporter or expert so far who actually knew as much as I would have liked them to know. These guys are the sheeple. Joe public is beneath even these jokers.

The tiny percentage of people who actually know enough about finance nowadays will be just fine whatever happens.

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And if everyone doubled in intelligence, half of them would still be dimmer... (was it Reagan or Bush who was supposedly appalled to hear that half of all Americans were below average intelligence?).

To put it another way, if more intelligent people had acted more responsibly, the bankers would just have moved further down to food-chain to find the greater fool... and if any of us had been really smart, we'd have piled into BTL in 2000 and sold up late 2006, thus exacerbating the problem...

They did!

In USA they targeted poorer and poorer people to offer the loans to - which only mentioned the 3 year 'lure' low interest rate which was the basis tens of thousands of mainly poor were sold these on.

"Which you can afford - sign here"

This had a number of devilish schemes hiding behind it.

The bent salespeople with bonus bounty signs hanging before their eyes fiddled the applications to facilitate the liar loans.

The banks were wrapping these time-bomb mortgages up in bent CDO's and selling them on as AAA to other bent bonus addled bankers around the World

(whilst mortgagees in USA could still pay within the fixed 3yr low rate)

As soon as US economy went down after 2004 it all blew up

The whole focus of blame/subprime (note the occult, reversed, mirrored letters 'bp' was laid on Fanny Mae/Freddioe Mac by the Banksters of New York whilst they got away with Billions in commissions fascillitating the fraud and commissions selling the debt on to unsuspecting idiot bankers also on bonuses.

The piss-take was this.

"Fannie Mae,Freddie Mac (ff=66) was founded in 1938 during the Great Depression as part of the New Deal."

Banksters let loose after being constrained for decades by Glass-Steagal 1932 Act etc

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+1

anyone who has worked in financial services or in some way associated with financial services would know this, I cannot emphasise enough how utterly correct this paragraph is

...true ...most of them are gormless....too close to the glitter in a tunnel which distorts vision.... :rolleyes:

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Never heard of an analogy? The point is that you shouldn't go into anything significant without a basic level of knowledge and common sense, and borrowing so much that you can only just afford it at a very low interest rate demonstrates about the same level of common sense as buying a car that's mostly rust held together with gaffer tape. You'd shake your head at the latter, so why defend the former? It's not requiring an in-depth knowledge of financial systems, just a very basic modicum of knowledge.

Comparing purchasing a visibly damaged car to a financial vehicle was either a bad or misleading analogy.

How many savers actually know what their 'money' is doing right now, or even where it is?!?

Edited by PopGun
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...Isaac Newton lost part of his fortune in the South Sea Bubble...and he worked out the laws of gravity..!..clever but not enough when it comes to greed and bubbles....greed was the main driver in Browns bubble also.... :rolleyes:

The inventor of gravity forgetting that what goes up must come down. :lol:

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The wealth of information out there and ability to access it is greater than at any time in history.

Yes but look at a house price graph in isolation. Prices have followed a steady upward trend since the 1950's.

Those more knowledgeable than me hypothesized that we were in a new paradigm; the necessities of life took less of our income so we could afford to allocate more of our discretionary income into our homes. That was why the traditional mortgage multiplier of 3x income was outdated, affordability was the new yard stick.

Lets not forget the political imperative as well; if everyone owns (buys with a mortgage) their own home they will have a stake in our society and become more responsible citizens.

Its too simplistic to blame home buyers for being seduced by greed and being too stupid to delve into economics. Many economists failed to comprehend the speed and extent of the global economic collapse, let alone forecast it. Even now they disagree on the cause, and as for the number of ways those experts say the situation can be corrected!!

It wasn't just individuals who believed we had entered a new era of prosperity, it was corporations, banks, building societies, hedge funds, even entire countries.

Of course hindsight gives perfect 20/20 vision.

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I tell my little story again.

When I was about 25 (early 80s) we wanted a mortgage.

I just wanted a normal capital & interest mortgage.

The crook (salesman) offered a thing called an endowment mortgage.

He told me I would have to pay the interest only ..... plus buy into an endowment that would pay back more than the loan.....I'd make a profit.

I asked a simple question........ (I was not formally qualified in any form of economics.)

............"Can you guarantee there will be enough return to repay the capital".

He said

........ "No"

I said

........"Feck off"

end of little story

Thousands of other people would have asked the same question, and got told YES.

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Yes but look at a house price graph in isolation. Prices have followed a steady upward trend since the 1950's.

Those more knowledgeable than me hypothesized that we were in a new paradigm; the necessities of life took less of our income so we could afford to allocate more of our discretionary income into our homes. That was why the traditional mortgage multiplier of 3x income was outdated, affordability was the new yard stick.

Lets not forget the political imperative as well; if everyone owns (buys with a mortgage) their own home they will have a stake in our society and become more responsible citizens.

Its too simplistic to blame home buyers for being seduced by greed and being too stupid to delve into economics. Many economists failed to comprehend the speed and extent of the global economic collapse, let alone forecast it. Even now they disagree on the cause, and as for the number of ways those experts say the situation can be corrected!!

It wasn't just individuals who believed we had entered a new era of prosperity, it was corporations, banks, building societies, hedge funds, even entire countries.

Of course hindsight gives perfect 20/20 vision.

+1

I have said before that I thought house prices were too high back in 2001 but bought any way because I needed a house.

The reason I thought house prices were too high wasn't because I have some Superior intelligence it was because I lived through the last crash.

I think a lot of people didn't cockup because they were stupid they cockedup because they were young.

There were a lot of people on very good salaries looking after the British economy that should have known better.

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Why would you not buy an asset that was guaranteed by experts to increase in value and never lose money?

Can you- honestly- expect joe public to have forseen a series of events like this:

So your complaint is that joe public failed to predict an event so unlikely that the span of years involved exceeded the number of particles in the entire universe?

I think you are being a bit harsh here. :D

It wasn't guaranteed. ;)

Anyone who put 1 minutes effort into research would know this. That is all I am saying. If you didn't put 1 minutes research into borrowing a quarter of a million pounds ? Then no - sympathy from me will not be forthcoming. And no I don't think that is being harsh. I include some of my own family and friends amongst this. Whilst I don't rub their face in it and keep fairly quiet about what is going on - I certainly do not offer my sympathies for what they have done. And if they asked for my honest opinion on it - I would be very honest with them.

Yes but look at a house price graph in isolation. Prices have followed a steady upward trend since the 1950's.

Those more knowledgeable than me hypothesized that we were in a new paradigm; the necessities of life took less of our income so we could afford to allocate more of our discretionary income into our homes. That was why the traditional mortgage multiplier of 3x income was outdated, affordability was the new yard stick.

Lets not forget the political imperative as well; if everyone owns (buys with a mortgage) their own home they will have a stake in our society and become more responsible citizens.

Its too simplistic to blame home buyers for being seduced by greed and being too stupid to delve into economics. Many economists failed to comprehend the speed and extent of the global economic collapse, let alone forecast it. Even now they disagree on the cause, and as for the number of ways those experts say the situation can be corrected!!

It wasn't just individuals who believed we had entered a new era of prosperity, it was corporations, banks, building societies, hedge funds, even entire countries.

Of course hindsight gives perfect 20/20 vision.

Very true. However it was pretty clear that something was up. I worked it out. I had zero knowledge about the housing market, banks and all the rest of it. However it was just very obvious that something was very wrong. That is all myself - and I think many others - are saying.

A secretary at my old work in 2007 was onto her 3rd BTL flat. Had borrowed probably 300k+. And was earning maybe 20k if she was lucky.

Anyone who doesn't see that and think 'Something is ******ed' - needs to wake up IMO.

Of course - there will be loads of other things out there that I will be ignorant of and work out in hindsight. However I doubt any will be as obvious as this mess.

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Comparing purchasing a visibly damaged car to a financial vehicle was either a bad or misleading analogy.

How many savers actually know what their 'money' is doing right now, or even where it is?!?

I'd hope that any savers right now at least know what the interest rates on their savings are, and if it's in something with a high rate that it's almost certainly going to be somewhere risky. Quite where their savings actually are, and what they are being used for is getting into the details that I wouldn't expect most people to know, and with the car I wouldn't expect most buyers to be aware of the purpose and state of every component of the engine, although they should be aware that something is wrong if the engine sounds like a bag of spanners.

The visibily damaged car is a good analogy because it's pretty obvious to anyone with an ounce of common sense that there's something wrong with it. Just like the housing market. In neither case should a sensible person be persuaded by the "experts" claiming that it's not a problem.

Anyone who doesn't put a bit of their own thought and research into a very major decision is a complete and utter idiot who doesn't deserve any sympathy at all. That isn't the same as knowing every single detail about that decision. If they have put a bit of thought and research into it and it contradicts what the supposed experts say they should give a good bit of thought into whether the experts know what they're talking about. They may then be persuaded.

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It wasn't just individuals who believed we had entered a new era of prosperity, it was corporations, banks, building societies, hedge funds, even entire countries.

All run by individuals who thought that. Look at who the most prominent individuals were who were the head of such thinking - people like Gordon Brown, Fred Goodwin etc.

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Yes. Even today how many times do you ever here that the smoking gun of high house prices and the financial crisis lead to the trade deficit?

Not often I'll venture.

I've never read that but I've managed to join the dots. When did we last have an economy that wasn't a ponzi scheme 30 years ago maybe?

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Quite where their savings actually are, and what they are being used for is getting into the details that I wouldn't expect most people to know,

Why not?

The visibily damaged car is a good analogy because it's pretty obvious to anyone with an ounce of common sense that there's something wrong with it. Just like the housing market. In neither case should a sensible person be persuaded by the "experts" claiming that it's not a problem.

And how many people looked at you like you just shat in their mouth when you pointed high house prices/mortgage debt out to them?!

No one wants to be labeled a doom mongering green eyed loser, and we all know about the stigma attached to renting.

I do agree that the public must accept some part of the blame, but they're way down the list compared to the media, government and the financial industry.

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To some people on here, ‘sheeple’ seems to = the mass of 'greedy'* people they fervently hope will go utterly broke and whose homes will be either forced sales or repossessions, so that the non-sheeple (themselves) will be able to buy them for a knock-down price.

And I can’t help wondering whether, when the prices of those same houses have shot up, as they eventually will whether it takes 10 or 20 years, those same non-greedy, non-sheeple will piously tell the EAs who come to value their houses, ‘No, that is ridiculous – if you take 20% off that price then we might have a deal.’

*'greedy' so often apparently meaning anyone who has bought a house or who has any money, or at least has more than they do.

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Comparing purchasing a visibly damaged car to a financial vehicle was either a bad or misleading analogy.

How many savers actually know what their 'money' is doing right now, or even where it is?!?

I'd guess most opted for 'low risk' ..... :D:D

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All run by individuals who thought that. Look at who the most prominent individuals were who were the head of such thinking - people like Gordon Brown, Fred Goodwin etc.

I think one needs to be a bit cautious about assuming that bankers === ordinary individuals.

I'm happy to recommend John Lancaster's "Whoops" - here's a nice quote:

Tom Wolfe's term for the people at the pinnacle of this system was 'masters of the universe'. That was meant to be heavily, stingingly ironic - but the masters of the universe seemed not to notice that. They still seem not to. There's a reason for that. For most adults, the sensation of being proved right is usually a complex and bittersweet one. You might have said that your brother-in-law would turn out to be a no-goodnik, or that the forty-third president would turn out to be the worst in American history, and you may regard subsequent events as inarguable proof that you were right - but it's not an especially happy feeling. It changes nothing about the world outside your head. You were right. Congratulations. And? One of the peculiar things about the world of finance is that it freely offers the sensation of being proved right to its participants. Every transaction in the markets has a buyer and a seller, and, in most cases, one of them is right and the other wrong, because the price goes either up or down. The cumulative weight of this right-or-wrongness is one of the things that make financial types psychologically distinctive. Artists, sportsmen, surgeons, plumbers and the rest of us have secret voices of doubt, inner reservations about ourselves, but if you work with money, and make money, you can be proved right in the most inhumanly pure way. This is why people who have succeeded in the world of money tend to have such a high opinion of themselves.

(apols for any typos)

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To some people on here, ‘sheeple’ seems to = the mass of 'greedy'* people they fervently hope will go utterly broke and whose homes will be either forced sales or repossessions, so that the non-sheeple (themselves) will be able to buy them for a knock-down price.

And I can’t help wondering whether, when the prices of those same houses have shot up, as they eventually will whether it takes 10 or 20 years, those same non-greedy, non-sheeple will piously tell the EAs who come to value their houses, ‘No, that is ridiculous – if you take 20% off that price then we might have a deal.’

*'greedy' so often apparently meaning anyone who has bought a house or who has any money, or at least has more than they do.

In this instance, doesn't "greedy" = those people not prepared to accept less than their perceived "market value" of their property (and not a penny less), even though they only paid £30k for it 30 years ago?

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In this instance, doesn't "greedy" = those people not prepared to accept less than their perceived "market value" of their property (and not a penny less), even though they only paid £30k for it 30 years ago?

Equally you can say those who deposit money in a savings account are greedy because they expect to receive back more than they put in!

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so many people in this country over the last decade, who were about to make the biggest financial decision of their lives, seemingly looked little beyond how much the first six months' mortgage payments would cost them and jumped in.

if you were signign up to an agreemnt for probably a thrid of your entire lifetime ? I would be doing some serious investigations prior to letting the ink dry.

The thing is that buying a house with a 25 year mortgage is generally not a 25 year decision at all. Most FTBs only stay a few years in their first house.

In that context, making your decision based upon the next 2-3 years' mortgage payments is reasonable. And with every other TV programme showing how much house prices rise over 2-3 years, can you really blame the borrowers and not the lenders?

When I buy a new car, I might look at Which magazine to see which is better rated for performance, reliability etc. If the car breaks after 6 months, can you really blame me - or does the blame not lie with the manufacturers and Which? The regulators (government, BofE), irresponsible banks and the "property porn" TV programmes are to blame for this situation, not those who acted on information they should be able to trust.

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In this instance, doesn't "greedy" = those people not prepared to accept less than their perceived "market value" of their property (and not a penny less), even though they only paid £30k for it 30 years ago?

It's not so much that. It's more that through SMI, nationalised bank forebearance, QE, bailouts, ZIRP and the biggest propaganda operation ever conceived, the greedy pwoperdee investors are being subsidised at the expense of the entire population, productive economy and currency system.

This whole thread is a fairly batshit insane melange of Cultural Marxism. Apparently the Frankfurt boys did their job well and personal responsibility is an antiquated concept, even in the eyes of HPC. Of course these caring, sympathetic homeowners who purport to defend the Sheeple are scared shitless their investment is going to go down the swanny.

If you believe people are blameless and should be isolated from the consequences of their actions, then ultimately you believe the human condition is best suited to a life of slavery at the hands of an elite.

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The thing is that buying a house with a 25 year mortgage is generally not a 25 year decision at all. Most FTBs only stay a few years in their first house.

In that context, making your decision based upon the next 2-3 years' mortgage payments is reasonable. And with every other TV programme showing how much house prices rise over 2-3 years, can you really blame the borrowers and not the lenders?

When I buy a new car, I might look at Which magazine to see which is better rated for performance, reliability etc. If the car breaks after 6 months, can you really blame me - or does the blame not lie with the manufacturers and Which? The regulators (government, BofE), irresponsible banks and the "property porn" TV programmes are to blame for this situation, not those who acted on information they should be able to trust.

I blame both. It really is very simple.

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If you believe people are blameless and should be isolated from the consequences of their actions, then ultimately you believe the human condition is best suited to a life of slavery at the hands of an elite.

I wouldn't call them 'blameless', and apart from anything else, I don't think the attempts to paper over the cracks is doing them any long-term favours. However, I would argue that they don't deserve the epitaph of 'sheeple' and that the primary cause of the clusterf*ck was the banking industry rather than the customer.

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I wouldn't call them 'blameless', and apart from anything else, I don't think the attempts to paper over the cracks is doing them any long-term favours. However, I would argue that they don't deserve the epitaph of 'sheeple' and that the primary cause of the clusterf*ck was the banking industry rather than the customer.

I should make it clear if I ever comment on the 'Sheeple' I am commenting on the property 'sheeple' only.

I think it is useful simple word to explain what we are dealing with. All of us are 'sheeple' when it comes to other things in this World. Nobody is immune. I would have no issue with someone describing me as 'sheeple' due to an ignorance I have of some other subject.

Nobody can know everything.

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