Solar Panels 'save Just £70 A Year'

[interestrateripoff]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/personalfinance/consumertips/household-bills/8620325/Solar-panels-save-just-70-a-year.html

The EST had previously estimated the savings to households at around £120 annually, but after trials carried out by the government-funded Carbon Trust, the energy advice group amended its estimates.

The admission will be a blow to the growing number of "rent-a-roof" schemes, where households receive free solar panels in return for savings on their electricity bill. However, as many of these schemes lock households into a 25-year contract, many householders are expected to be reluctant to take part for such paltry savings.

Under "rent-a-roof" schemes, the company that installs the panels, which typically cost around £14,000, keeps the income generated from selling the surplus energy back to the grid via the Government's feed-in tariff (FIT) scheme – typically earning more than £1,000 each year.

Isn't the feed in tariff where the profit is anyway?

Solar cells clearly have a long way to go before they become viable. Although where the hell did the original figures come from? Solar cell manufacturers?

[leicestersq]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/personalfinance/consumertips/household-bills/8620325/Solar-panels-save-just-70-a-year.html

Isn't the feed in tariff where the profit is anyway?

Solar cells clearly have a long way to go before they become viable. Although where the hell did the original figures come from? Solar cell manufacturers?

Another subsidy. Result, fraud and corruption.

Can anyone spot a pattern here?

[scrappycocco]

I thought all these muppets taking them on now saving a few quid are just subsidising us smart people waiting for the more efficient ones. What are they like 5% efficiency at the moment, when it gets to around 40% thats when I'll be coming online - if I have a house by then LOL.

[SarahBell]

43p per unit you make

3p per unit on top for anything that goes into grid

But real elec is 11-15p a unit

So you will make 3.5x the 70 quid ...

But even then payback is a long way off (2k plus 4k per kw of panel)

Are they using real figures?

[CarbonBasedLifeform]

43p per unit you make

3p per unit on top for anything that goes into grid

But real elec is 11-15p a unit

So you will make 3.5x the 70 quid ...

But even then payback is a long way off (2k plus 4k per kw of panel)

Are they using real figures?

you are all talking crap

returns on a 3.96 kw system costing avg £13k are around £1730-1950 year

we are seeing typical returns of 13% tax free linked to RPI for 25yrs on systems sized over 3kw.

here in the sw systems are outperforming govt figures (SAP calculations) by around 15%.

current top of the range hybrid sanyo modules have cell efficiencies of 20% run of the mill modules are aroud 14-16% efficient.

[ripandcap]

I spent 11K on a 3.3kw system. I had tax free payments over £1100 plus saved a couple of hundred quid on my electric bill in the first year. More than leaving it in a bank

[nice tuna sandwich]

It sounds like you recoup your initial outlay after 8 or 9 years. But as an individual you can do similar with preference shares in an ISA wrapper, and retain your original capital, and sell the, on/ take them with you if you move house.

Maybe I'm misunderstanding, but can't make the figures add up personally. Maybe for institutional investors and I looked at the Foresight solar VCT quite closely earlier this year. Anyway, respect to those who are doing this for altruistic/ environmental reasons.

[Tiger Woods?]

I spent 11K on a 3.3kw system. I had tax free payments over £1100 plus saved a couple of hundred quid on my electric bill in the first year. More than leaving it in a bank

Which is a fine return, until they pull the subsidy.

[newbonic]

Which is a fine return, until they pull the subsidy.

Let us not forget that the energy generated via renewables does at least displace some imported energy (now that the UK is a net importer), and for that reason alone some level of subsidy is justified.

(edit for typo)

Edited July 6, 2011 by newbonic

[wallah]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2010/mar/01/solar-panel-feed-in-tariff

[stormymonday_2011]

So basically the rest of us pay higher prices in electricity to subsidise not terribly efficient home solar panels that produce most of their power in the summer when demand is lowest.

I see also that our wonderful politicians are promoting this racket just as the Germans are ditching it because it is a waste of money that produces little in the way of real green benefits.

Par for the course really.

And as Monbiot points out it would appear to be a monumental scam in the making as crooks simply recycle power from the grid to claim the tariff.

Edited July 6, 2011 by stormymonday_2011

[johnny5thumbs]

Which is a fine return, until they pull the subsidy.

They can't. You lock into the rate at the time of signing.

[General Congreve]

I spent 11K on a 3.3kw system. I had tax free payments over £1100 plus saved a couple of hundred quid on my electric bill in the first year. More than leaving it in a bank

Plus you'll be able to cannibalise them for the scrap silver and make a mint on that too once the debt ponzi scheme collapses!

[Tiger Woods?]

They can't. You lock into the rate at the time of signing.

It is, in the end, a government subsidy. They can do what they like regardless of what piece of paper you hold. All that is required is a "crisis."

I don't know the exact details of the UK scheme, but the Australian ones have similar guarantees. However, there is also fine print that indicates (for instance) that they may refuse to let power from your array into the grid at any time of their chosing. I suspect there will be similar get outs in the UK scheme. I'd read the UK fine print very closely before I installed a system.

Indeed, a moment's googling brings up this article entitled "Household solar power: a shock in the small print."

The electricity companies have terms and conditions which run to 16 pages of fine print in the case of EDF, my supplier, and these include;

“Clause 4.6. which states that the generator – that’s the householder – acknowledges and agrees that the generation tariff and export tariff as set out in the term sheet shall be subject to variation, as determined by the authority from time to time and pursuant to the operation of the scheme.

...

Promises to pay a fixed return for a quarter of a century that are subject to alteration without notice would seem to be a contradiction in terms and a distinctly shaky basis on which to invest. But not, apparently, to EDF.

When I asked the company to reply to the points raised by Mr Crisp, this is the written reply it sent. “The feed-in tariff incentive was introduced by the Department of Energy and Climate Change (DECC), who appointed Ofgem as the authority to administer and define the terms of the scheme on their behalf.

“Like other suppliers, we outline in our standard terms and conditions that we will apply the prevailing tariff rates, which are determined by Ofgem. These rates may change from time to time as determined by the regulator. You may wish to address the question either to Ofgem as the appointed authority, or to DECC themselves.”

If nothing else, that reply gives a good idea of the brush-off householders can expect to receive if they complain when the tariff rates they were promised are cut.

Edited July 7, 2011 by Tiger Woods?

[Lone_Twin]

Now ask yourselves who is interested in predictable government subsidised returns over a long period and to whom there is no problem stumping the initial capital.

Thats right, your friends and mine the banksters.

There are several large ongoing projects of several hundreds of millions of pounds which involve companies incorporated for the purpose by banks installing pv panels on hundreds of council houses in order to harvest the feed in tarrif.

And so the government once again creates a scheme to funnel more taxpayer money into the pockets of the bw@nkers.

[TheIncomer]

Let us not forget that the energy generated via renewables does at least displace some imported energy (now that the UK is a net importer), and for that reason alone some level of subsidy is justified.

Not really, because the hardware all comes from overseas and the rare earth metals themselves come from China etc. And manufacturing a panel takes a hell of a lot of energy. So we've just moved our overseas reliance to a slightly different point in the supply chain

[Ruffneck]

Don't blame the solar companies , the predictions were probably made with MET forecasts of 'barbecue summers' and 'warm' winters , not the weather the UK has been experiencing the past couple years.

[swissy_fit]

Not really, because the hardware all comes from overseas and the rare earth metals themselves come from China etc. And manufacturing a panel takes a hell of a lot of energy. So we've just moved our overseas reliance to a slightly different point in the supply chain

Do you have any figures?

[SarahBell]

There are companies who will install and maintain the panels on your home. You don't get a bean apart from the free electric you use whilst you're generating it. I don't think they tell you how much you're generating though so matching consumption is probably guess work - but if you work from home then you can probably make good use of the free eleccy.

[Markxjr]

I 've had to kick out solar "salesmen" from my mothers house, makes a refreshing change from booting out utility guys. To a man, they know FA, I've installed energy saving devices for AC induction motors, a few simple questions and they flounder and bluster, it's embarrassing. They read from scripts but can't explain the figures? These guys are on the loose targetting OAP's all over the UK.

I have my doubts that the artificially high (subsidised) sell-on price will remain, and why should it?

Aesthetically they are a disaster, anybody seen a good looking solar panel system?

Who'd want to buy a house with an outdated solar panel system in 6/9/12 years?

[Freeholder]

I 've had to kick out solar "salesmen" from my mothers house, makes a refreshing change from booting out utility guys. To a man, they know FA, I've installed energy saving devices for AC induction motors, a few simple questions and they flounder and bluster, it's embarrassing. They read from scripts but can't explain the figures? These guys are on the loose targetting OAP's all over the UK.

I have my doubts that the artificially high (subsidised) sell-on price will remain, and why should it?

Aesthetically they are a disaster, anybody seen a good looking solar panel system?

Who'd want to buy a house with an outdated solar panel system in 6/9/12 years?

To believe that the feed in tarriff will be maintained would be to trust not just the present government but a series of future governments. Surely only a nutter would do that. If you see these things on a persons house you know their gullability level is off the scale.

[CarbonBasedLifeform]

There are companies who will install and maintain the panels on your home. You don't get a bean apart from the free electric you use whilst you're generating it. I don't think they tell you how much you're generating though so matching consumption is probably guess work - but if you work from home then you can probably make good use of the free eleccy.

Why should you get any more than some free leccy? they are paying for the system and any maintenance so they get the feed in tariff, if you want the feed in tariff pay for the system yourself SIMPLES! or do you believe in fairies too?

They know how mutch power the system generates as they install a generation meter and this will be plainly visible within the property for you to see , this will usually contain a sim card that sends this information to a monitoring service.

An assumption is made that most people will probably use 50% of the power the system generates with the rest going into the grid until smart metering is installed they have no way to know how mutch you use and how mutch you export , they do know how mutch the system generates though.

[SarahBell]

Why should you get any more than some free leccy? they are paying for the system and any maintenance so they get the feed in tariff, if you want the feed in tariff pay for the system yourself SIMPLES! or do you believe in fairies too?

They know how mutch power the system generates as they install a generation meter and this will be plainly visible within the property for you to see , this will usually contain a sim card that sends this information to a monitoring service.

An assumption is made that most people will probably use 50% of the power the system generates with the rest going into the grid until smart metering is installed they have no way to know how mutch you use and how mutch you export , they do know how mutch the system generates though.

If you are out all day then you will get little benefit from it.

So there's almost no incentive there.

I believe in fairies, dragons, pixies, angels AND interest rate rises.

I don't see any rate rises round here though.

Edited July 7, 2011 by SarahBell

[CarbonBasedLifeform]

To believe that the feed in tarriff will be maintained would be to trust not just the present government but a series of future governments. Surely only a nutter would do that. If you see these things on a persons house you know their gullability level is off the scale.

Yet again someone who knows sweet fa about this!

********* THE GOVERNMENT DOES NOT PAY THE FEED IN TARIFF SUBSIDY! THE POWER COMPANIES PAY IT (via billpayes obviously) ************

we signed up to kyoto thereby agreeing to cut CO2 or we have to pay fines.

we need to build more power stations to replace old ones due to be decommissioned. this will take 8-10 years.

solution the govt ENFORCES A LEGAL OBLIGATION UPON THE POWER COMPANIES to buy PV power generated by their consumers at rates fixed for 25 years linked to RPI. making PV systems an attractive investment.

RESULT. govt achieves c02 cuts and taken some of the strain of the national grid allowing more time for infrastructure upgrades also a high tech industry is formed creating thousands of jobs ALL PAYED FOR BY YOU THE ENERGY CONSUMER!

IF YOU DON'T HAVE A SOLAR PV SYSTEM INSTALLED YOU ARE SUBSIDISING THE FEED IN TARIFF OF THOSE THAT DO THROUGH INCREASES TO YOUR BILL'S FACT!

obviously this system is only sustainable when the majority of customers don't have PV systems as they have to pay for the customers that do, when this happens the scheme will close to new entrants THIS IS WHAT IS HAPPENING IN GERMANY it's not that they have decided solar pv is not valid as a technology. so now they have reduced the feed in tariffs to make it unnatractive to new entrants as they need them to susidise the existing customers feed in tariff payments. This is what will happen here after the tipping point of sustanability is reached.

[koala_bear]

Yet again someone who knows sweet fa about this!

********* THE GOVERNMENT DOES NOT PAY THE FEED IN TARIFF SUBSIDY! THE POWER COMPANIES PAY IT (via billpayes obviously) ************

we signed up to kyoto thereby agreeing to cut CO2 or we have to pay fines.

we need to build more power stations to replace old ones due to be decommissioned. this will take 8-10 years.

solution the govt ENFORCES A LEGAL OBLIGATION UPON THE POWER COMPANIES to buy PV power generated by their consumers at rates fixed for 25 years linked to RPI. making PV systems an attractive investment.

RESULT. govt achieves c02 cuts and taken some of the strain of the national grid allowing more time for infrastructure upgrades also a high tech industry is formed creating thousands of jobs ALL PAYED FOR BY YOU THE ENERGY CONSUMER!

IF YOU DON'T HAVE A SOLAR PV SYSTEM INSTALLED YOU ARE SUBSIDISING THE FEED IN TARIFF OF THOSE THAT DO THROUGH INCREASES TO YOUR BILL'S FACT!

obviously this system is only sustainable when the majority of customers don't have PV systems as they have to pay for the customers that do, when this happens the scheme will close to new entrants THIS IS WHAT IS HAPPENING IN GERMANY it's not that they have decided solar pv is not valid as a technology. so now they have reduced the feed in tariffs to make it unnatractive to new entrants as they need them to susidise the existing customers feed in tariff payments. This is what will happen here after the tipping point of sustanability is reached.

The FIT scheme will only be open to new entrants for another year or so, in the UK (with lessons learned from Germany) it was designed to build up a base of experienced installers and reduce installation costs. i.e. give the market a kick start rather than act as a large scale subsidy.