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Greece Blasts Ratings Agency 'madness' As Portugal Downgraded To 'junk'

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http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/financialcrisis/8619951/Greece-blasts-ratings-agency-madness-as-Portugal-downgraded-to-junk.html

Stavros Lambridinis told a conference in Berlin that the decision by the ratings agency late on Tuesday to downgrade Portuguese debt was not based on any failure to implement economic reforms.

Lambridinis said that this had "the wonderful madness of self-fulfilling prophecy" by aggravating Portugal's fiscal straits, and exacerbating an already difficult situation.

Although apparently the madness of continual deficit spending and incomes never matching expenditures isn't an issue.

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http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/financialcrisis/8619951/Greece-blasts-ratings-agency-madness-as-Portugal-downgraded-to-junk.html

Although apparently the madness of continual deficit spending and incomes never matching expenditures isn't an issue.

What planet are they on? The ratings agencies assess the risk and the risk is actually massive that PIGS will end up defaulting. Bankrupts always find it hard to borrow don't they? Something went wrong didn't it? The lenders are not likely to get all their money back are they? Perhaps Portugal wants another ECB credit card like greece. You know, get to the old limit and a letter turns up in German saying, 'Vud you like to increase ur limit again Mr Country? Vee vish to save ze Euro from collapse. Sign in ze box. Danka' . :)

Edited by plummet expert

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What planet are they on? The atings agancies assess the risk and the risk is actually massive that PIGS will end up defaulting. Bankrupts always find it hard to borrow don't they? Something went wrong didn't it? The lenders are not likely to get all their money back are they? Perhaps Portugal would like another ECB credit card like greece. Youknow, get to the old ,limit and a letter turns up in German saying, 'Vud you like to increase vur limit again Mr Country? Vee vish to save ze Euro from collapse. Sign in ze box. Danka' . :)

What I dont get is why the countries who are lending to the PIGS themselves in trouble? Ridiculously low yields on German, UK and French bonds.

My own theory that it is China buying the bonds with their huge trade surplus to keep the value of their currency low. Thing is for them, I hear that they are causing raging inflation as a result, and added to a lax regulatory framework, their own monetary system may well blow up too.

This doesnt look good.

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What I dont get is why the countries who are lending to the PIGS themselves in trouble? Ridiculously low yields on German, UK and French bonds.

My own theory that it is China buying the bonds with their huge trade surplus to keep the value of their currency low. Thing is for them, I hear that they are causing raging inflation as a result, and added to a lax regulatory framework, their own monetary system may well blow up too.

This doesnt look good.

There's nothing good about it. The crash is in slow motion because Govts have found more and more ingenious ways to get another line of credit, none of which can be paid back. It would be so much cheaper if Greece just defaulted, reintroduced the drachma and balanced its budget on the spot by imposing wages to public sector it can afford. It is happening, but with massive borrowing on top!

China - will turn out to be the big lie in all this. Their economy has become so unbalanced...poverty to riches....to false growth figures...to rediculous unsustainable public works and 65 million empty new homes!...to loaning the USA and the world supersized monthly loans, because they didn't let their currency float and upwards years ago. We had inflationless goods at the price of our jobs moving there, followed by balance of payment deficits for decades and consequently govt borrowing rises until one day the casino of money markets and jiggery pokery implodes. It could have been a number of triggers, but it started with Lehmans because of subsubsubprime and thus exposed the rest of the casino...

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I agree, it is madness.

If you want ratings, you want to know what will happen. Not what your bonds might be worth six months after default.

We should be junk.

Portugal and Greece shouldnt even qualify for rating.

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in these countries is not just a state failure. its a mental failure. we suffer the same in housing borrowing madness, but at least we had the sense to pay taxes. the tax dodgers will fall first.

can you imagine not paying tax when you can get away with it, yet somehow expect a huge infrastructure and pension and the trimmings.

are these people just thick stupid or what ? (+ the obvious financial boom thing).

but the stupidity of who is paying the bill and how is immense.

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I agree, it is madness.

If you want ratings, you want to know what will happen. Not what your bonds might be worth six months after default.

We should be junk.

Portugal and Greece shouldnt even qualify for rating.

If the agencies could get no respect in the markets then they would have no effect. Fact is they are trusted and in fact have held back a long time with many countries. They should be downgrading the UK and the USA, but only because they have theri own currencies has this not happened. But if we and they carry on plugging our spending gaps with any more QE the danger rises dramatically. We are still piling on the debt every month, despite cuts. Over £1 trillion national debt now and rising. Do you think we can afford it? Answer, not unless we inflate it away and suffer that way instead of swinging real cuts in spending now.

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Both Greece and Portugal have an overvalued currency. Both have sizeable tourist/service industries and would benefit enormously from devaluation - particularly Greece which is bleeding trade every year to Turkey next door. Neither has potential for export-led growth . . . Portugal hasn't had much in the way of growth for ten years. Austerity has only crippled the domestic economy.

The case for both to leave the Eurozone has never been stronger.

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If the agencies could get no respect in the markets then they would have no effect. Fact is they are trusted and in fact have held back a long time with many countries. They should be downgrading the UK and the USA, but only because they have theri own currencies has this not happened. But if we and they carry on plugging our spending gaps with any more QE the danger rises dramatically. We are still piling on the debt every month, despite cuts. Over £1 trillion national debt now and rising. Do you think we can afford it? Answer, not unless we inflate it away and suffer that way instead of swinging real cuts in spending now.

Despite or because of?

Ratings have to be considered partly as relative.

If US rating was downgraded it would almost certainly still be the 'safest' relatively. Where else can all those dollars go? Switzerland? It ain't big enough.

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Despite or because of?

Ratings have to be considered partly as relative.

If US rating was downgraded it would almost certainly still be the 'safest' relatively. Where else can all those dollars go? Switzerland? It ain't big enough.

Where else can it go?

Didn't the General have a suggestion? What was it now?

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Despite or because of?

Ratings have to be considered partly as relative.

If US rating was downgraded it would almost certainly still be the 'safest' relatively. Where else can all those dollars go? Switzerland? It ain't big enough.

To grow we need to incur deficits.

To cut the debt ( in relative terms), we need growth

Talk about a catch 22.

Of course, it wont work. 10% GDP borrowing is delivering a big fat 0% growth, the numbers dont add up.

Obviously whether growth in a world of finite resources is good is open to debate. Good for us maybe, bad for every generation hence.

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What planet are they on? The ratings agencies assess the risk and the risk is actually massive that PIGS will end up defaulting. Bankrupts always find it hard to borrow don't they? Something went wrong didn't it? The lenders are not likely to get all their money back are they? Perhaps Portugal wants another ECB credit card like greece. You know, get to the old limit and a letter turns up in German saying, 'Vud you like to increase ur limit again Mr Country? Vee vish to save ze Euro from collapse. Sign in ze box. Danka' . :)

What planet are you on? "The ratings agencies", oh you mean those crooks who gilt edged what is now now as "Toxic" debt?

You really thinks they'd downgrade the US?

I'd rather take advice on risk from some chicken bones and a crystal ball!

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http://uk.reuters.com/article/2011/07/06/uk-eurozone-idUKTRE7651EE20110706

European politicians accused credit rating agencies on Wednesday of anti-European bias after Moody's downgrade of Portugal's debt to "junk" cast new doubt on EU efforts to rescue distressed euro zone states without debt restructuring.

European Commission President Jose Manuel Barroso said the decision to cut Lisbon's rating by four notches so soon after it became the third country to receive an EU/IMF bailout was fuelling speculation in financial markets.

Clearly it's fueling speculation that a large number of countries incomes don't match expenditures and many are running up huge debts.

We truly are run by sociopaths.

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What planet are you on? "The ratings agencies", oh you mean those crooks who gilt edged what is now now as "Toxic" debt?

You really thinks they'd downgrade the US?

I'd rather take advice on risk from some chicken bones and a crystal ball!

Quite, so much ******** out there as to what contitutes a default. Printing up a load of money, calling it a fancy name, devaluing your currency and repaying your creditors with increasingly worthless paper is every bit as much a default as telling them to take a haircut on the capital.

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http://market-ticker.org/akcs-www?post=189463

EU Financial Regulation Chief: "We'll Just Lie"

Seriously, it doesn't get much more stupid than this:

EU FINANCIAL REGULATION CHIEF: EU COULD LOOK INTO POSSIBILITY OF SUSPENDING RATINGS ON EU COUNTRIES RECEIVING BAILOUTS

Off the wires.

There's idiotic and then there's really idiotic. This is the EU's apparent response to ratings agencies saying that they will consider what amount to forcible debt swaps (that are falsely labeled "voluntary") an act of default (they are.) Rather than have those bonds deemed ineligible for pledging to the ECB and similar programs, the Europeans are now willing to simply say that they will take defaulted instruments by literally refusing to accept an objective determination that the default occurred!

We'll just go la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la we can't hear you until you tell us something we want to here.

God they are sounding like 2 year olds.

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Europre sounds pissed off. Not surprised, they didn;t like a lot abou the debt bubble and US policies - they'll like this even less.

QE2 ends in the US, buyers already steering clear of dollar and treasuries so the US gets the rating agencies to run a series of rolling downgrades in the Euro area to bolster demand for US detritus.

Could get interesting.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/economics/8621520/Europe-declares-war-on-rating-agencies.html

Europe declares war on rating agencies

A chorus of policy-makers from Europe and across the world have denounced Moody's drastic downgrade of Portuguese debt as an act of financial vandalism, accusing the "Anglo-Saxon" rating agencies of driving states into bankruptcy and destabilising the global system.

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  • 284 Brexit, House prices and Summer 2020

    1. 1. Including the effects Brexit, where do you think average UK house prices will be relative to now in June 2020?


      • down 5% +
      • down 2.5%
      • Even
      • up 2.5%
      • up 5%



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