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Evan Davis On Bbc2 Now, Documentary, On What We Export


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HOLA441
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HOLA442

What is it about the Chinese, that they will not admit that they have basically copied the West?

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HOLA443

What is it about the Chinese, that they will not admit that they have basically copied the West?

Cos then they'll have to admit they are behind the curve and are likely to remain there whilst they just copy everything. They've just copied the Japanese as well, with their version of the bullet train

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HOLA446

It seems in summary that the idea is that a developed economy moves on to higher tech industries and knowledge exports. However, as has been mentioned, there are no longer jobs for the unskilled. This could be that our education system failed to keep up or that the whole idea was fantasy in first place (my preferred option).

The idea that we could all move into high tech and office jobs was a fantasy that completely ignores all human behaviour - typical economic theory, in other words.

In this programme, it seems (although i haven't seen all of it), along with most other summaries of our economic situation, this elephant in the room is desperately ignored at all costs.

In my admittedly small reading on the subject, the only person i have come across to directly tackle the blatant gap between economic theory and practice in the subject of our industrial development is EF Schumacher. Can anyone recommend other reading on this subject?

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HOLA447

Too upbeat by far

Why not do a comparison

ARM Holdings vs Siemens?

MG Chinese kits vs Mercedes?

Pilkington vs Nippon or St Gobain? whoops Pilkington is Nippon.

Chocolate biscuits and running shoes can be made and sold just about anywhere

The truth is we have 1% rocket science, a few percent real creative industies, like design, software and architecture holding up a crumbling parasitic and/or unskilled 90%

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HOLA448

a fantasy that completely ignores all human behaviour - typical economic theory, in other words.

Not sure that is true - in my limited experience and reading the problem appears more to be politicians who take a Burger King "You Get It Your Way" approach to economics - cribbing the bits they like, ignoring the inconvenient parts. The recent bastardising of Keynes for instance - the likes of Brown and Balls banging on about deficit spending in a recession, whilst ignoring Keynes' arguments about counter cyclical policy during a boom (ie tightening the rates, not loosening them. I certainly don't think Keynes would have approved of the monkeying around with the inflation figures either).

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HOLA449

What is it about the Chinese, that they will not admit that they have basically copied the West?

Because it works?

Japan for instance made crappy but powerful motorcycles. The CBX1100 was a monster, the frame couldn't handle the power and 100mph was suicidal due to the bendy high head stock frames. Some back of shed engineers had approached British motorbike companies with their spiffy designs namely the twin spar frame design. British motorbike industry wasn't interested, so they made customs out of them for racing. In racing their Japanese engined bikes with custom british frames were raping Japanese bikes. So Honda copied the design and refined it over several years.

Today they make THE BEST motorbikes.

German BMW did the same, Hossack designed the telelever suspension. He took it to BMW who said no, they waited for the patent to expire in the late 1990s and then all of a sudden telelever bikes appeared on most BMWs.

Copying = a massive short cut saving you tons of R&D.

The Americans did it on German WWII stuff, so did the Russians.

The Russians copied the sidewinder missile prototype when a missile was fired hit a Mig but didn;t explode. Their Archer missiles are better than what the west had to offer for a long time.

The thing is all of the copiers eventually surpassed the original whom they copied off. Hyundai copied ford engines when using them underlicence. Japanese motorbikes are the biggest market share of all (Triumph isn't British btw it uses Taiwanese parts). As said why do the hard work when it can be copied?

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Because it works?

Japan for instance made crappy but powerful motorcycles. The CBX1100 was a monster, the frame couldn't handle the power and 100mph was suicidal due to the bendy high head stock frames. Some back of shed engineers had approached British motorbike companies with their spiffy designs namely the twin spar frame design. British motorbike industry wasn't interested, so they made customs out of them for racing. In racing their Japanese engined bikes with custom british frames were raping Japanese bikes. So Honda copied the design and refined it over several years.

Today they make THE BEST motorbikes.

German BMW did the same, Hossack designed the telelever suspension. He took it to BMW who said no, they waited for the patent to expire in the late 1990s and then all of a sudden telelever bikes appeared on most BMWs.

Copying = a massive short cut saving you tons of R&D.

The Americans did it on German WWII stuff, so did the Russians.

The Russians copied the sidewinder missile prototype when a missile was fired hit a Mig but didn;t explode. Their Archer missiles are better than what the west had to offer for a long time.

The thing is all of the copiers eventually surpassed the original whom they copied off. Hyundai copied ford engines when using them underlicence. Japanese motorbikes are the biggest market share of all (Triumph isn't British btw it uses Taiwanese parts). As said why do the hard work when it can be copied?

It is very subjective to say the Japanese make the best motorbikes. Your view and you are entitled to it.

The Americans for there roads prefer Harleys. The Italians all seem to like Piaggios for around town.

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HOLA4412

Because it works?

Japan for instance made crappy but powerful motorcycles. The CBX1100 was a monster, the frame couldn't handle the power and 100mph was suicidal due to the bendy high head stock frames. Some back of shed engineers had approached British motorbike companies with their spiffy designs namely the twin spar frame design. British motorbike industry wasn't interested, so they made customs out of them for racing. In racing their Japanese engined bikes with custom british frames were raping Japanese bikes. So Honda copied the design and refined it over several years.

Today they make THE BEST motorbikes.

German BMW did the same, Hossack designed the telelever suspension. He took it to BMW who said no, they waited for the patent to expire in the late 1990s and then all of a sudden telelever bikes appeared on most BMWs.

Copying = a massive short cut saving you tons of R&D.

The Americans did it on German WWII stuff, so did the Russians.

The Russians copied the sidewinder missile prototype when a missile was fired hit a Mig but didn;t explode. Their Archer missiles are better than what the west had to offer for a long time.

The thing is all of the copiers eventually surpassed the original whom they copied off. Hyundai copied ford engines when using them underlicence. Japanese motorbikes are the biggest market share of all (Triumph isn't British btw it uses Taiwanese parts). As said why do the hard work when it can be copied?

That's fine Ken. And Im sure there countless examples. But its not what I asked.

What is it about the Chinese pyscy that they refuse to admit to it?

Is it a saving face thing?

I saw another programme on BBC2 a few months back, [The incredible Human Journey] where Dr Alice Roberts visited one of the top Chinese Scientists, [Anthropologist?] who claimed that the Chinese were different from all other types of Human Beings, and he had a skull to prove it. Kept in a vault.

I found it quite scary.

Edited by Dan1
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Not sure that is true - in my limited experience and reading the problem appears more to be politicians who take a Burger King "You Get It Your Way" approach to economics - cribbing the bits they like, ignoring the inconvenient parts. The recent bastardising of Keynes for instance - the likes of Brown and Balls banging on about deficit spending in a recession, whilst ignoring Keynes' arguments about counter cyclical policy during a boom (ie tightening the rates, not loosening them. I certainly don't think Keynes would have approved of the monkeying around with the inflation figures either).

Apart from Schumacher, i've never come across any economist or commentator that acknowledges the role that work and jobs play in people's emotional lives, the impact that the dumbing down of work in the name of efficiency has had on society. In my opinion it can be linked to stress, crime, drug addiction, even.

It's not just a matter of talking about the lump of labour fallacy, claiming that other jobs will come along to replace those automated - this 'all jobs are equal' approach completely ignores the fact that one job is not like another in terms of stimulation and satisfaction. There is something lacking in our system that cannot take these factors into account. Perhaps I haven't read enough on economics - I'd be glad of any pointers.

Edited by shipbuilder
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HOLA4415

That's fine Ken. And Im sure there countless examples. But its not what I asked.

What is it about the Chinese pyscy that they refuse to admit to it?

Is it a saving face thing?

Got it in one.

It is compounded by the fact that society demands giving of face and automatic respect for older people even if they are completely and utterly wrong. And to defend them even if you know they are wrong.

This has been the source of much conflict between my dad and myself. Especially my extended family as I quite often say no and will call people out on things.

The reputation/face saving thing is strong in Asia because only 30 years ago people were tilling their fields and thus formed tight knit agricultural societies where reputation mattered a helluva lot because of the extremely frequent famines. While Westerners were busy killing each other in various wars and mechanised their farming many years ago thus the face saving element isn't so strong.

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HOLA4416

That's fine Ken. And Im sure there countless examples. But its not what I asked.

What is it about the Chinese pyscy that they refuse to admit to it?

Is it a saving face thing?

I saw another programme on BBC2 a few months back, [The incredible Human Journey] where Dr Alice Roberts visited one of the top Chinese Scientists, [Anthropologist?] who claimed that the Chinese were different from all other types of Human Beings, and he had a skull to prove it. Kept in a vault.

I found it quite scary.

The Chinese don't believe in the Out of Africa theory. Apparently they evolved from different monkeys

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multiregional_origin_of_modern_humans

They have a major chip on their shoulders having told themselves for thousands of years that they are great and the smartest people on the planet. When evidence arrived to the contrary in the 19th century, they threw a hissy fit they haven't quite got over yet.

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HOLA4419

The Chinese don't believe in the Out of Africa theory. Apparently they evolved from different monkeys

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multiregional_origin_of_modern_humans

They have a major chip on their shoulders having told themselves for thousands of years that they are great and the smartest people on the planet. When evidence arrived to the contrary in the 19th century, they threw a hissy fit they haven't quite got over yet.

But it seems like Britain which was once considered the biggest greatest etc etc country in the world still hasn't gotten over this either. ;)

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HOLA4420

But it seems like Britain which was once considered the biggest greatest etc etc country in the world still hasn't gotten over this either. ;)

We do punch above our weight. Although we snigger we are a nuclear power (just) are a G8 country, place on the UN security council, credible armed forces and one of the top manufacturing countries (though we snigger on here).

And we started our industrialisation a few century or two before China's

I think its our shitty "get rich quick" business model thats caused a lot of problems. We seem OK at the tech behind a little gizmo but lack the ability to scale and manage massive projects.

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HOLA4421

Interesting that the Chinese are being reported as only capable of copying others ideas.

That's exactly what was said about the Japanese years back, yeah they can only copy stuff, until they started taking over almost every industry and technology from motorbikes to ships to you name it and advancing the technology at the same time. Ok they're not doing as well now for various reasons but the UK and US underestimated them for many years after WW2 and then all of a sudden, well here we are today.

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HOLA4422

We do punch above our weight.

The Japanese Department of Industry did an in depth study around 2002. It covered literally millions of items. Scientific, Medical, Engineering etc etc.

As the Japanese themselves are a nation of inventors.

They found that about 60% of everyday items used all over the world were invented by the British. [The highest]

About 25% by the Americans.

Roughly 70% of patents, worldwide are held by Brits and Americans.

I think it would be fair to say that these recently emerged Industrial nations will improve what already exists.

But Its amazing how many small inconsequential villages there are dotted all over, not far from me,Terraced Housing Estates in Industrial Yorkshire, whom can claim Nobel prize winners for instance, writers, composers, scientists, who changed the world, and have simply been forgotten about.

Where-as in other European countries they would be national treasures. Statues erected etc.

Edited by Dan1
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HOLA4423

The Japanese Department of Industry did an in depth study around 2002. It covered literally millions of items. Scientific, Medical, Engineering etc etc.

.....

They found that about 60% of everyday items used all over the world were invented by the British. [The highest]

About 25% by the Americans.

Roughly 70% of patents, worldwide are held by Brits and Americans.

....

They could have saved themselves the bother. Since time began the UK has been very well known to be great for coming up with ideas from University research departments and suchlike and I dare say patenting them but extremely poor at putting the ideas into practice and profiting from them.

I suppose the Japanese are to be thanked for actually coming up with percentages i.e. 60% and 70%.

Of course they were going to do something about all this years and years ago, white heat of technology and so on and the coalition recently said something similar - believe them at your peril.

Edited by billybong
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HOLA4424

The trick he is missing is that whilst we need the high value stuff, not everyone can be an inventor or advertiser. We need unskilled work for our unskilled labour. The basic point he is making, that manufacturing alone does not make an economy is correct, and a point that appears to fly over the head of many on this forum.

Easily solved. The unemployed get benefits for 6 months. If they still can't find work the govt pay to relocate them to Asia, where they can find unskilled work (maybe in an ISP call centre), at an appropriate wage in their new lower cost country. Everyone wins.

If we're going to export the working classes, let's do it properly.

Edited by Parkwell
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HOLA4425

Off Topic.

I warmed to Evan Davis immeadiately.

By 2004, after being priced out for years already, I heard him, on the television saying:

I would not mind if my property fell from its current inflated value to, say 25p

I wonder how many overpaid 'BTL' executives at the BBC, given six figure salaries heard that?

And how many times he was 'overlooked' because of his accurate views on house prices?

Edited by Dan1
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