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DTMark

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My turn to ask an IT related one :)

When I used to develop with ASP (VBScript) I used Dreamweaver (CS4, I think) for allt he front-end work. At that time Microsoft had no credible product for design and front end development.

Things have moved on and I develop in .NET now. Additionally changes in CSS meant my copy of Dreamweaver became redundant, CSS based layouts just didn't render properly.

As I'm enrolled in a Microsoft programme I get all the development tools for free, so I have Visual Studio and MS Web Expression Studio.

The former is pretty good as a coding tool but worse than useless, actually, dangerous for front end work because it's riddled with bugs; even if it doesn't crash (which it frequently does - try highlighting some text in the middle of an H1 tag and overtyping - basic stuff like that) the parser which rewrites the HTML if you dare go near the graphical layout view frequently destroys parts of the HTML and unlike Dreamweaver, which was very intuitive and speedy to use, it's aggravating and slow to attempt to do anything much with.

MS Web Expression is infinitely much better. However it's still nowhere near Dreamweaver, not even close to the experience - even though it's not a bad "copy" of DW and it's perfectly usable, it still doesn't quite hit the mark.

OK, both the above are free, so mustn't grumble :) But years on, it doesn't look to me like Microsoft are ever going to get the hang of these design tools.

How is Dreamweaver these days, I might be able to save a bit of cash with an upgrade perhaps (I have a paid for key for the original product) - if you use something else (bearing in mind it has to work with .NET so has to be able to render the webforms controls - that's the tricky bit maybe) what do you use and why?

Thanks.

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How is Dreamweaver these days, I might be able to save a bit of cash with an upgrade perhaps (I have a paid for key for the original product) - if you use something else (bearing in mind it has to work with .NET so has to be able to render the webforms controls - that's the tricky bit maybe) what do you use and why?

Thanks.

Not touched any of that crap for years. Generally just use a Content Management System, generally Wordpress. Depends what type of site you are trying to design of course.

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Not touched any of that crap for years. Generally just use a Content Management System, generally Wordpress. Depends what type of site you are trying to design of course.

This is development from the ground up - generally bespoke stuff - so that starts with mockups in Photoshop which then progress to Xhtml/Css for the front end "from scratch" and I then develop the back-end code and wire it all up. (Oddly enough I've recently tried setting up Joomla for the first time, for our village planning committee, and that hasn't gone terribly well, I've delegated that to someone else now before I lose my sanity with it)

It's the "ground up" development of the front end and often when you want to make little changes to the Html source that I need the tool for. Even tiny changes are frustrating with the MS tools for the very simple reason that, unlike Dreamweaver, when you flick between design and source the MS software doesn't highlight the bit of the Html you had the cursor over and doesn't even bother scrolling the source up or down so you can immediately see where you were. It also has a very odd parser so when you're hand coding and want to "reformat" the HTML (i.e. get everything tabbed in and out and nested properly) you end up doing it by hand, it has a function labelled "Reformat Html" which doesn't really work.

It's little finishing touches like that which Dreamweaver had and the MS stuff doesnt.

I thought I'd "get used" to the MS tools in the end, but I still find them just as frustrating now as I did when I started with them.

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I started to learn web design/dev with Dreamweaver 3 back in 2001 and it was a great tool for creating static web pages back then but like Steed I used it less over the years and now I never touch it at all. It's far quicker and easier to hand code pages yourself than to try to get the WYSIWYG editor to behave.

I use WordPress as the CMS platform for all my sites. The underlying code is horrendous but as a system it works extremely well and has a very slick authoring and admin UI. The wide range of free themes (design templates) and plugins (additional features) also makes it a winner and its very easy to customise yourself (make your own themes and plugins) if you know PHP. I evaluated Joomla when deciding to no longer build custom CMSs and decided that WordPress was more suitable for my needs as it's flexible and extendible.

I use Notepad++ for quick file edits but Aptana Studio for the bulk of my work as it's very easy to use, features code completion and formatting, and makes life a lot easier. I also code in Java (Android apps) so the fact it's based on Eclipse also helps. I use Firebug for debugging and experimenting. All of this software is free.

On the odd occasion I need to write a Flash application I use FlashDevelop to code in pure AS3. Again, I used to use Macromedia/Adobe Flash back in the day but I prefer this.

I've never gotten around to learning C# despite buying a book on it about 3 years ago. If I ever do I'll be trying out the Microsoft Visual Studio 2010 Express products and Mono Develop.

Basically I use a lot of different software and frameworks depending on the job and nearly all of it is free and open source, which helps keep costs down significantly but can take a lot of time to trial and learn initially depending on available documentation. It's well worth it in the long run though and the time spent doing so soon pays for itself.

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I started to learn web design/dev with Dreamweaver 3 back in 2001 and it was a great tool for creating static web pages back then but like Steed I used it less over the years and now I never touch it at all. It's far quicker and easier to hand code pages yourself than to try to get the WYSIWYG editor to behave.

I use WordPress as the CMS platform for all my sites. The underlying code is horrendous but as a system it works extremely well and has a very slick authoring and admin UI. The wide range of free themes (design templates) and plugins (additional features) also makes it a winner and its very easy to customise yourself (make your own themes and plugins) if you know PHP. I evaluated Joomla when deciding to no longer build custom CMSs and decided that WordPress was more suitable for my needs as it's flexible and extendible.

I use Notepad++ for quick file edits but Aptana Studio for the bulk of my work as it's very easy to use, features code completion and formatting, and makes life a lot easier. I also code in Java (Android apps) so the fact it's based on Eclipse also helps. I use Firebug for debugging and experimenting. All of this software is free.

On the odd occasion I need to write a Flash application I use FlashDevelop to code in pure AS3. Again, I used to use Macromedia/Adobe Flash back in the day but I prefer this.

I've never gotten around to learning C# despite buying a book on it about 3 years ago. If I ever do I'll be trying out the Microsoft Visual Studio 2010 Express products and Mono Develop.

Basically I use a lot of different software and frameworks depending on the job and nearly all of it is free and open source, which helps keep costs down significantly but can take a lot of time to trial and learn initially depending on available documentation. It's well worth it in the long run though and the time spent doing so soon pays for itself.

Do you have to self teach yourself all of this or can it be formally learned?

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This is development from the ground up - generally bespoke stuff - so that starts with mockups in Photoshop which then progress to Xhtml/Css for the front end "from scratch" and I then develop the back-end code and wire it all up. (Oddly enough I've recently tried setting up Joomla for the first time, for our village planning committee, and that hasn't gone terribly well, I've delegated that to someone else now before I lose my sanity with it)

We work the same way here, personally I just hang code everything I have never found any editor that that actually works in any useful way. They are generally OK but every now and they they do something stupid and it just spirals out of control.

I just use VI on Unix and Firebug and the Developer Plugin on Firefox. You can edit the HTML and CSS in the browser using those tools so you can test the idea in real time then just implement the appropriate changes in the files.

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Do you have to self teach yourself all of this or can it be formally learned?

I'm sure there are training courses out there but mine was all self-taught, both programming languages and IDE software, using a combination of books, online tutorials and the documentation that ships with the software. It's taken ten years and been a gradual learning and building process that's come out of necessity and curiosity. The web's certainly come a long way over the past 10 years and it was either keep up or get out and find a different career and I didn't fancy being an estate agent or landlord for obvious reasons.

I do have a masters in computer science but I studied that years after self-teaching and working. If you want to learn it you can do so by yourself for free, which is all I could afford at the time; it's just a case of making the time. I have found, however, that formal learning gives you structure, direction and understanding (the why, not just the how) and qualifications can get you interviews, clients and a foot in the door.

I didn't mean to hijack the thread with a "me me me" post but hopefully the info will prove useful to others. :)

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We work the same way here, personally I just hang code everything I have never found any editor that that actually works in any useful way. They are generally OK but every now and they they do something stupid and it just spirals out of control.

I just use VI on Unix and Firebug and the Developer Plugin on Firefox. You can edit the HTML and CSS in the browser using those tools so you can test the idea in real time then just implement the appropriate changes in the files.

Never used any tool as such.

Used to use Textpad but use PSPad now having tried a lot of other editors like coffecup.

Chrome has a very good script debugger now so i don't use Firebug anymore.

PHP server side code and MYsql database with an Apache proxy server.

Never had any problems whatsoever.

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I'm no coder but I do manage about 50-60 Joomla websites. I find it does the job perfectly well for my relatively undemanding clients.

I do this:

Mock up site in Photoshop

Make Joomla template to match

Edit CSS and the occasional core file with Dreamweaver (for no other reason than it talks to the site via FTP well and I like the interface)

I've just made a site with Open Cart and Dreamweaver has again proved very hand for file editing/FTP managing.

Still made the template in Photoshop though.

I've tried to learn a bit of coding, but there are so many people who can do it so much better that I call on one of them if needed.

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Chrome has a very good script debugger now so i don't use Firebug anymore.

I have found Chrome to be a little buggy when it comes to supporting older versions of HTML tags and the way it treats javascript, it also seems to do some heavy and at time bizarre caching which makes it super fast but unsuitable for development.

I used it 100% at home but never as a base for development, the one to use would be IE but it is such a truly awful piece of software that it is basically unusable so Firefox tends to be a decent half way house, in 99% of scenarios what you do in Firefox will work on most other browsers, the exception of courses is IE6 which is also terrible but still very present on the desk top*

* It's actually not wide spread in the general public but is still at businesses, even if that means on director somewhere tucked away in a wood panel office, so our clients tend to be testing using that even though a vast majority of their customers won't be.

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I have found Chrome to be a little buggy when it comes to supporting older versions of HTML tags and the way it treats javascript, it also seems to do some heavy and at time bizarre caching which makes it super fast but unsuitable for development.

I used it 100% at home but never as a base for development, the one to use would be IE but it is such a truly awful piece of software that it is basically unusable so Firefox tends to be a decent half way house, in 99% of scenarios what you do in Firefox will work on most other browsers, the exception of courses is IE6 which is also terrible but still very present on the desk top*

* It's actually not wide spread in the general public but is still at businesses, even if that means on director somewhere tucked away in a wood panel office, so our clients tend to be testing using that even though a vast majority of their customers won't be.

Never noticed any javascript bugs in Chrome although it (and usually Firefox) are tolerant of errors in the code which IE (rightly i feel) flags as errors. The only caching problems i've had were with images.

The javascript engine is lightening quick in Chrome. I have an option on one page that does a lot on the DOM. It takes a couple of seconds in Chrome, four seconds in FF but 5 minutes in IE.!!

I kept getting memory leaks in FF as well and had to keep closing it down.

I read an article about a year ago that ie6 was still the most used browser. Lot of inertia in business I think. Some stats now have chrome overtaken the total of all IE browsers.

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Never noticed any javascript bugs in Chrome although it (and usually Firefox) are tolerant of errors in the code which IE (rightly i feel) flags as errors. The only caching problems i've had were with images.

Yep both Chrome and FF are pretty tolerant, but for everything IE does right it does 10 things wrong.

The javascript engine is lightening quick in Chrome. I have an option on one page that does a lot on the DOM. It takes a couple of seconds in Chrome, four seconds in FF but 5 minutes in IE.!!

As I say it's my browser of choice at home, but for development I just had too many issues or various things don't work, not Chromes fault but no point working in one browser 95% of the time and then having to switch

I kept getting memory leaks in FF as well and had to keep closing it down.

It certainly used to have that issue, as somebody leaves their work PC on all the time it did start to get sluggish just after lunch, but that has been resolved for sometime.

I read an article about a year ago that ie6 was still the most used browser. Lot of inertia in business I think. Some stats now have chrome overtaken the total of all IE browsers.

Not sure what stats they would be, on the sites I run which are generally used by technophobes the numbers are broadly IE 50%, FF 25%, Chrome 12% and Safari 12% (obviously there are others but they make up a small percentage).

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Not sure what stats they would be, on the sites I run which are generally used by technophobes the numbers are broadly IE 50%, FF 25%, Chrome 12% and Safari 12% (obviously there are others but they make up a small percentage).

I was just going by this site. It's the first one in the google search for "browser stats".

http://www.w3schools.com/browsers/browsers_stats.asp

BTW. For anyone wanting to learn html, or javascript that site is a fantatastic resource IMHO.

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I was just going by this site. It's the first one in the google search for "browser stats".

http://www.w3schools.com/browsers/browsers_stats.asp

BTW. For anyone wanting to learn html, or javascript that site is a fantatastic resource IMHO.

Part of an OU assignment was about this...I'm been lead to believe not to trust w3schools stats, because it is weighted towards those in from technical community...

I've used these in the past... http://gs.statcounter.com/

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Part of an OU assignment was about this...I'm been lead to believe not to trust w3schools stats, because it is weighted towards those in from technical community...

I've used these in the past... http://gs.statcounter.com/

They certainly seem to underestimate ie usage.

I think non-technical users don't notice how slow ie is. In fact a lot of users don't even know what a browser is.

The trend is probably reliable though.

Still w3schools is a fantastic site for anyone learning, don't you think?

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Thanks for the replies - seems nobody else has found the "perfect" graphical/source tool, Dreamweaver "had it" back in the day, and there hasn't been anything like it since (guess the HTML standards were comparatively stagnant back them, so creating a GUI tool was more straightforward)

I shall just have to get used to this MS Web Expression Studio thing. Admittedly it is very slick, but perhaps this thread shows, there's no substitute for hand-coding certain stuff.

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Has anyone mentioned Dreamweaver CS5? I've used it for a couple of months now, and really like it. The code editor is good, and reliably flags up daft little bugs (like forgetting semicolons at the end of code lines, my vice if I drop into PHP after a C#/VB.NET session).

I occasionally use Joomla if a customer wants something simple they can edit themselves straight away - even then adding new pages etc takes some training. Otherwise it is handrolled all the way for me, usually in PHP with CodeIgniter which is a dream to work with once you are used to it and DAMNED fast when page caching is on.

I use Opera as a preview browser, as it is so damn fast and standards compliant. A page that takes 5 seconds to load in Firefox (or 15 seconds in IE...) may only take 2 seconds in Opera. If you're refreshing the page 1000 times a day, that's a lot of seconds saved.

Has anyone used 'Rails? Trendy flash in the pan, or worth looking at?

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Coming from a very traditional print background, I always liked Softpress Freeway.

It's only Mac, but that's never bothered me because I've always been a Mac user.

It was always much better at handling typography than other platforms when it started, being based on Quark Express. And I've always been fussy about type.

They say, 'no coding required' but you can insert code quite easily for things you need to do.

I found Dreamweaver quite clumsy compared to Freeway in the beginning . . . I have no idea about a comparison now.

Recently I've used Wordpress because it's a doddle, but I don't do anything as ambitious as I used to do in Freeway.

No idea how it stacks up these days but you can download a trial from:

http://www.softpress.com/

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Has anyone used 'Rails? Trendy flash in the pan, or worth looking at?

Is that Ruby on Rails?! I've heard of it but don't know much about it. Industry standard apparently, but then idiots told me Hotmetal was industry standard in 1998, yet I’ve never encountered a single person who actually used it.

I take it Adobe GoLive never took off then?! :lol:

Despite sometimes missing Flash, I'm pretty glad that I left all that Multi-Media/Web ‘Design’ gash behind. Seems like standardised template driven CMS sites will be the future, or companies will just have a simple Facebook page instead.

If I ever venture back into the creative arts, it will be in good old fashioned graphics and photography. There's precious little design in Web Design these days.

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Now using Dreamweaver CS5.5, and it's excellent. It integrates with PhoneGap so you can develop apps for multiple phone handsets, all from a single HTML5/JQuery/CSS platform. Money for old rope.

There is decent money about for chucking together something in a CMS with a semi-custom template, but these soon become a straightjacket for anything more than brochure pages.

Companies are willing to pay preposterous sums for Facebook apps. Web app sitting in a standard web page? £500. In Facebook? £2500. The latter is all iframes based now rather than FBML, piece of wee.

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  • 312 Brexit, House prices and Summer 2020

    1. 1. Including the effects Brexit, where do you think average UK house prices will be relative to now in June 2020?


      • down 5% +
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      • Even
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      • up 5%



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