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Public Sector Pensions Are Affordable

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There's a great deal of misinformation, disinformation and Tory central office trolling in many of these threads.

This is the employee contribution. Not the total contribution.

Had the pension benefits been money purchase schemes then the salary benefits would have been negotiated on a different basis.

The 'problem' in the main is that the private sector have rolled over and been shafted by their employers due to the opening up of China and India and had their benefits significantly reduced as a result. Rather than refuse to work for next to nothing (or a great deal at the top end) they are now venting their fury on anyone who hasn't similarly suffered, which is understandable.

But the issue which needs to be resolved is that the reduction in real pay and conditions for everyone due to globalisation, a lack of capital controls, corporatation tax arbitrage a belief that 'free markets' are good for us (when patently they're only good for the top 1% of us) and so on.

Ranting at the guy next door because you've been ripped off really is a race to the bottom.

Which of course is exactly what the Bullingdon Boys want. Posters such as Exiges exemplify the success of their strategy and sadly reduce this site to a tory central office propaganda tool, which is unfortunate.

I kind of agree with what you're saying I think, i.e. why are we in-fighting over a race to the bottom? It's a good point.

However, you are asking for support now but where were the teachers when numerous government back-office jobs were outsourced to private companies, therefore taking someone from a nice public pension scheme to the crappy private one? It's all a bit rich and a bit too late to complain now.

If you're getting a lot of :rolleyes: from people it's mainly because we've already been through this, it's not necessarily jealousy or anger at how our taxes are spent. Teachers need to sort out their PR otherwise they're going to look stupid, like the BA staff.

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The combined employers and employees contribution totals 20.5% of gross salary. Are you really suggesting that 40 years contributions at this level has no chance of funding a 50% final salary pension and lump sum of 1.5 times annual?

If rates of return are not higher than inflation, no. Recent rates of return have been much lower on pension funds.

40 years at 20.5% is around 8 years salary. Take 1,5 years off = 6.5 years. That has to cover around 20 years pension. Very roughly that would fund around 30-35% final salary. Rough figures but thereabouts...

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The point of school is to cease all interest in learning.

That's what the education was designed for - to churn out obedient robots with no interest whatsoever in learning and with zero curiosity.

Those schoolkids protesting about the HE fees in London didn't all seem obedient or disinterested in learning. Are the kids hanging about in the parks and shopping centres the ones who retain the interest in learning then ?

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We are dealing with a financially illiterate public and public sector that has left a 1.5 trillion black hole in their pension schemes. The unborn that had no benefit from their efforts will be hobbled for life by their pension packages.

Corrected.

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Those schoolkids protesting about the HE fees in London didn't all seem obedient or disinterested in learning. Are the kids hanging about in the parks and shopping centres the ones who retain the interest in learning then ?

Complaining about no longer being able to cheaply enter a state protected market doesn't exactly equal a thirst for knowledge, tbh.

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Except the pension in total is far more that £3500. If we assume the £3500 is his 6.4% contribution then the employer will be contributing another 14.1% or £7700. The total annual contribution to the pot is £11200.

£3500 would suggest a head teachers salary unless he is paying AVC's

The scheme is run by Prudential and it has actual funds. Due to economics there may be some projected deficit but It is funded........

the defined benefit AVC scheme is but the central final sal one is not, it is a standalone legal entity AFAIK

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I'm sure some teachers would not make talented private sector employees, but I do think many in the private sector underestimate how hard teaching is.

As a teacher you have 20-30 teenage kids watching your every move and word for an hour, followed by another lot, then another lot. Then it's lunch time with 20 mins to eat lunch and 40 mins lunch duty, another barrage of kids and then when they finally go home 2-3 hours marking that MUST be done before they come back the next day. You can't just extend the deadline at school - the exam WILL be on XX June so you HAVE to have taught them everything by then.

If you're tired (and you will be), you can't just take a day off - sorry: half term is 4 weeks away. You are working every weekday, and possibly most Saturdays on the sports field, until then.

There is no such thing as a "quiet day in the office" at school. There is no hope that tomorrow might be a bit easier - every day is timetabled full of lessons

No, teachers don't produce, design or fix stuff. But they probably work harder than most of the people who do.

That's like saying "being a mother is the hardest job in the world" whilst forgetting the fact that your woes are self-inflicted!

Is there an SS squad that forces folk into teaching? Do these people get into teaching not knowing that they'll be 20-30 kids watching their every move?

Or did they get into teaching because it was the cheap way out of doing something that benefits the economy?

The best teachers I had were those that came from a Trade...the worst were those that were "professional" teachers i.e. they went to school, college, Uni and then became a teacher so in reality the knew f*ck all, voted Labour and were crap at their job! In other words, they all missed out on the most important Degree of them all: Common Sense!

Edited by Chest Rockwell

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Welcome to the good old labour theory of value; I'm not exactly surprised to see that from a teacher.

In the real world people don't care a crap about how hard you work, they care about the results you produce; and from what I've seen the results of the British school system are mostly dire. My old mate Michael Gove's education plans are about the only good idea I've seen from the current Tories.

I haven't seen similar figures for Britain, but I've seen studies of American schools indicating that productivity has dropped dramatically there while wages have increased over the last few decades. In any other industry the existing firms would have been replaced by more efficient competitors years ago.

+1

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Welcome to the good old labour theory of value; I'm not exactly surprised to see that from a teacher.

it must be emphasised that there are plenty of private sector - mainly very large companies, corporatists - who value hard work and long hours over productivity, and a;lso emphasise why this means they needed their bonuses after being bailed out, for example

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it must be emphasised that there are plenty of private sector - mainly very large companies, corporatists - who value hard work and long hours over productivity, and a;lso emphasise why this means they needed their bonuses after being bailed out, for example

...this is public theft which the Government must stop by sacking the Boards of those affected...if not they are part of the sting... :rolleyes:

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take your public sector pension and shove it where the sun dont shine.

...good one for the unions...think they'll get the drift of public feeling....when the public don't have pensions like this anymore.... :rolleyes:

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the defined benefit AVC scheme is but the central final sal one is not, it is a standalone legal entity AFAIK

Tis true. The final salary element is partially funded too but not administered in the private sector afaik. I doubt that contribution based db schemes ever really work due to prohibitive contribution rates.

All that said the private sector having been raped cheering the raping of the public sector is highly unedifying. The vast majority of those that have to work are going to be poorer in their working lives and in retirement. Hardly a cause for celebration is it?

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All that said the private sector having been raped cheering the raping of the public sector is highly unedifying.

true, I've found it a little scary how much power Cameron/Osborne are wielding, it is looking like revenge instead of rebalancing, the tories want the strikes because then they can take even more away, while the deal on the table looks decent from several angles

Alexander, Clegg and Balls have all been, not even subtley, pleading to the unions not to strike because of the likely results

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Here you all go again. Mass hysteria over public pensions.

Are you not all a bit bored with this argument?

You haven't been able to carve out a decent living in the private sector with a decent pension - correct? This means you have failed. You haven't made the wealth you think you deserve - correct? You've failed. So you feel bitter and angry, and look for a victim. Oh...Look, there's some public sector wokers, lets go and give them a bashing !!

You want to live in a Darwinian environment, so don't complain that you cannot hack-it. You only have yourselves to blame.

Leave the public sector workers alone. They are your only link to civilisation.

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....Alexander, Clegg and Balls .....

...not exactly a team of heroes ....not really likeable....would cross the road if I saw them coming ....it's a strain being polite.... :rolleyes:

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Its not just pensions though, its a fundamental cost issue.

Sort of like force feeding a vegetarian £100 cheeseburgers, paid for from their own wallet.

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Its not just pensions though, its a fundamental cost issue.

Sort of like force feeding a vegetarian £100 cheeseburgers, paid for from their own wallet.

There is no fundamental cost issue....you're just being envious because someone has something you don't.

The level of public pension reflects the contributions made over a working lifetime.

If you do the maths, it's about the same as investing for 50 years in the stock market.

Leave the public pensions alone and go and make your own wealth.

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...do you have ambitions to write jokes for a stand up comedian.... :rolleyes:

No...If we lose the public services...like the NHS...I don't think we can call ourselves civilised anymore.

What do you think?

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No...If we lose the public services...like the NHS...I don't think we can call ourselves civilised anymore.

What do you think?

Civilisation is not an ENFORCED infrastructure. We can only prove we are civilised if we undertake societal responsibilities in an entirely altruistic way. Murderers pay tax too.

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Quid pro quo, and you've got a deal.

Don't complain when you develop a chronic disease and cannot get treatment.....unless you sell the house to pay the costs.

Sometimes we need to appreciate what we have got. The NHS, and other public services, are the envy of the World. Our ancestors fought long and hard for these benefits, but morons who think they know better, will get rid of them over-night. And what replaces them is not better.

Question...Why don't private health care insurers want to get involved in cancer treatment?

Answer...Because it's expensive and a loss maker...so leave it to the NHS.

And...don't think for one minute that you are immune from a chronic disease or cancer, because you're not!

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  • 284 Brexit, House prices and Summer 2020

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