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The Start Of A Taxing Time

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http://uk.biz.yahoo.com/050930/214/ftcgl.html

Link not worth reading but contains this

“Plans for a nationwide system of road pricing under which motorists could be charged as much as £1.34p a mile are being accelerated dramatically by the Government, according to the Independent.”

Anyone else think that we are going to see more taxes very soon. I can feel the cost of living going up with every breath. People are going to find it very hard to pay their large mortgages

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http://uk.biz.yahoo.com/050930/214/ftcgl.html

Link not worth reading but contains this

“Plans for a nationwide system of road pricing under which motorists could be charged as much as £1.34p a mile are being accelerated dramatically by the Government, according to the Independent.”

Anyone else think that we are going to see more taxes very soon. I can feel the cost of living going up with every breath. People are going to find it very hard to pay their large mortgages

If they need money, just slap 5p on income tax, increse the low bands a bit to keep the low paid paying similar amounts.

It's so easy and doesn't cost billions to introduce!

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I thought about this and concluded it probably can't be made to work.

I'm sure the technology can be sorted out, but the implication of what is proposed means that you will have to set out on a journey having no clear idea what it will cost.

This is because every road (or part of a road) will have a different price per kilometre, and the price will change according to the time of day.

So if you change your route to avoid a jam the journey price will change. If you get stuck in a jam and your arrival at a road section is at a different time than you expected, the journey price will change.

Perhaps every road could have regular signs along it displaying the current price per mile. Perhaps your in-car GPS system could keep you informed about the costs of the journey, and the options available to you.

In the end I reckon the cost of implementing all this stuff, combined with the risk of total information overload for the driver, would make it effectively unworkable.

You would need a high level of reliability because the costs of dealing with incorrect billing would be millions - imagine all the cars on the M4 being overcharged for a day - what's that; 200,000 motorists appealing their bills?

My impression is that the scheme has arisen out of a political need to be seen to be doing something, Gordon's greed at the thought of all the tax revenue (yes, I know they say it will be tax neutral, and I believe it will be.....for the first 6 months), and the fact that lots of technical types have assured the govt the scheme is workable (on the basis that that's what the govt wants to hear, and the consultancy fees are very high).

I predict the scheme will run into the sand.

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Changes to road tax cost loads to implement like this and will be great for firms supplying the equipment.

(A cynical person might check out blairs friends to see of any of them own companies doing this sort of thing...)

I'd expect shares in road sign companys to boom too.

Simply putting up tax on fuel sorts it out really easily.

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Guest absolutezero

It's not the cost that's scary.

The fact that The System knows exactly where you are at all times is the stuff of nightmares.

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The fact that The System knows exactly where you are at all times is the stuff of nightmares.

Indeed. The point of the system is to control people... the fact that it will be economically devastating is irrelevant to them.

I'm so glad I'm getting out of this country.

In other news the Arctic is due to disappear in a few decades thanks to fossil fuel combustion by humans.

Meanwhile, back in the 70s oil was going to run out within twenty years and we were entering a new ice age.

Edited by MarkG

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I thought about this and concluded it probably can't be made to work.

I

In the end I reckon the cost of implementing all this stuff, combined with the risk of total information overload for the driver, would make it effectively unworkable.

I predict the scheme will run into the sand.

I agree that making this work will be more problematic that it’s worth-

Much easer to put the tax on fuel – and give relief on the tax for business vehicles and haulers so they can compete in Europe and it would save all those fuel protests- while they are doing that they could put car tax and insurance on it to, saving millions in wasted paperwork and red tape – but I guess that is to simple – I would pay £2- £3 a liter as that is cheap for what you get

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while they are doing that they could put car tax and insurance on it to

Car tax exists to ensure that people get MoTs and insurance, since you need to prove both when you get the tax disk. And if insurance was covered by the government from petrol tax it would merely encourage people to drive worse since they'd pay no more regardless of whether they'd never had an accident in twenty years of driving a Fiat Panda or crashed their Ferrari once a week.

I agree, though, on the pricing nonsense. Either roads should be privatised or the cost of running the roads should go in petrol tax (of course right now we pay about four times as much in petrol tax as is spent on roads).

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I thought about this and concluded it probably can't be made to work.

I'm sure the technology can be sorted out, but the implication of what is proposed means that you will have to set out on a journey having no clear idea what it will cost.

This is because every road (or part of a road) will have a different price per kilometre, and the price will change according to the time of day.

So if you change your route to avoid a jam the journey price will change. If you get stuck in a jam and your arrival at a road section is at a different time than you expected, the journey price will change.

Perhaps every road could have regular signs along it displaying the current price per mile. Perhaps your in-car GPS system could keep you informed about the costs of the journey, and the options available to you.

In the end I reckon the cost of implementing all this stuff, combined with the risk of total information overload for the driver, would make it effectively unworkable.

You would need a high level of reliability because the costs of dealing with incorrect billing would be millions - imagine all the cars on the M4 being overcharged for a day - what's that; 200,000 motorists appealing their bills?

My impression is that the scheme has arisen out of a political need to be seen to be doing something, Gordon's greed at the thought of all the tax revenue (yes, I know they say it will be tax neutral, and I believe it will be.....for the first 6 months), and the fact that lots of technical types have assured the govt the scheme is workable (on the basis that that's what the govt wants to hear, and the consultancy fees are very high).

I predict the scheme will run into the sand.

Technologically it is not such a hard thing to achieve.

You would go about it in basically the same way as you would calculating mobile phone bills, if not by using the same infrastructure. The software to do all the record gathering, processing, tariff calculations and billing already exists.

You can buy it in a shrink-wrapped CD if you want to and run it on a Linux box. It's called "Geneva". Of course thats

a BIG linux box, obviously.

Anyone who has a generally smooth time dealing with their phone bill will get an idea of what to expect with their "travel bill".

At the end of the day we *have* to do something about road usage. I know of plasterers coming from Beds to work in

Kent. Guaranteed they are passing another plasterer heading the other way to do a similar job. Its nuts.

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I agree that making this work will be more problematic that it’s worth-

Much easer to put the tax on fuel – and give relief on the tax for business vehicles and haulers so they can compete in Europe and it would save all those fuel protests- while they are doing that they could put car tax and insurance on it to, saving millions in wasted paperwork and red tape – but I guess that is to simple – I would pay £2- £3 a liter as that is cheap for what you get

I could have said the very same things myself. Not so sure about insurance though: there'd be no incentive to drive carefully and avoid claims.

On "convoluted" road charging, we already don't know how much our journeys cost. And even after a journey we don't know unless we top up the tank after each trip. And how do you value your time spent driving? That can vary a lot.

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Technologically it is not such a hard thing to achieve.

Technologicially, it is. Every road will have to be plastered with transmitters to tell the car the cost and accept payment and cameras to check for people who aren't paying. Every car will need a system to pay the cost of the road. And what will you do when you run out of money half-way to your destination?

The whole thing is an absurd boondoggle which will cripple the British economy but be a nice little earner for Tony's Cronies in the surveillance and control industry.

At the end of the day we *have* to do something about road usage.

Indeed. The government need to stop wasting all our tax money and build new roads: I believe we're right down near the bottom of the list in Europe for road miles per capita.

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Electoral suicide if rolled out on that scale. Imagine it - the extra costs of all those school runs each day - trips to work over and above fuel, road tax and insurance. There is just no way. Irrespective of what people say in this country in focus croups or to the press re fossil fuels, pollution etc, cars are essential to the average working class and middle class person (2 cars seems the norm these days) and if they realised this was another way to tax them to the tune of thousands of pounds a year then goodnight govt.

What is more likely is a selective introduction a la toll roads where there are particular traffic hotspots etc or where there is available alternative routes as in France. We are heading for a two tier road system - the wealthy get nice quiet roads and everyone else gets stuck.

I am surprised the car industry is not up in arms as it would have to adversely affect the sale of new cars?

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I agree that making this work will be more problematic that it’s worth-

Much easer to put the tax on fuel – and give relief on the tax for business vehicles and haulers so they can compete in Europe and it would save all those fuel protests- while they are doing that they could put car tax and insurance on it to, saving millions in wasted paperwork and red tape – but I guess that is to simple – I would pay £2- £3 a liter as that is cheap for what you get

Spot on suggestion, achieves the same objective with far greater simplicity and impossible to evade, plus ends unfair risk of being run over by an uninsured driver.

Car tax exists to ensure that people get MoTs and insurance, since you need to prove both when you get the tax disk. And if insurance was covered by the government from petrol tax it would merely encourage people to drive worse since they'd pay no more regardless of whether they'd never had an accident in twenty years of driving a Fiat Panda or crashed their Ferrari once a week.

There should be a basic compulsory insurance element in fuel tax to protect third parties. Then any other insurances such as against theft etc plus of course big surcharges for drunk drivers etc would be additional.

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Indeed. The government need to stop wasting all our tax money and build new roads: I believe we're right down near the bottom of the list in Europe for road miles per capita.

The main problem is the state of the roads. We have enough roads, they just don't go from a to b. I used to travel from London to the south west a lot, what a nightmare, nice road, rubbish road all the way down. Delays at end of dual carriageways add about 45 minutes to the journey, worse part is the average length of the single carriageway sections was (8 years ago and still is) 4 miles.

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Car tax exists to ensure that people get MoTs and insurance,

Why could we not have a MOT disk in the place of a tax disk? And ok the insurance may be a pipe dream but it could be a basic insurance for covering uninsured drivers + for when push bikes / pedestrians are involved

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Anyone else seen this? In Cornwall before the predicted eclipse gridlock 1999 blue cameras were put all over the place at every bridge and major junction off the A30 and A39. These are not speed cameras, but what are they?

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Anyone else seen this? In Cornwall before the predicted eclipse gridlock 1999 blue cameras were put all over the place at every bridge and major junction off the A30 and A39. These are not speed cameras, but what are they?

I think they are road traffic sensors – used for detecting traffic problems/ traffic jams etc (that’s what I was told)

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Guest Alright Jack
http://uk.biz.yahoo.com/050930/214/ftcgl.html

Link not worth reading but contains this

“Plans for a nationwide system of road pricing under which motorists could be charged as much as £1.34p a mile are being accelerated dramatically by the Government, according to the Independent.”

Anyone else think that we are going to see more taxes very soon. I can feel the cost of living going up with every breath. People are going to find it very hard to pay their large mortgages

The only reason I can think of for implementing something like this is to control congestion in certain busy areas.

If they are just trying lower consumption or raise further revenue by road mile, then increasing fuel duty does exactly this.

You shouldn't believe everything you read in the papers. Just because it's on a website doesn't make it gospel either.

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Spot on suggestion, achieves the same objective with far greater simplicity and impossible to evade, plus ends unfair risk of being run over by an uninsured driver.

Doesn't achieve the objective at all. The objective is to make it very very expensive to drive a mile on the A4 into London at 8:30am on a weekday, while making it cheap to drive a mile on a country A-road in Scotland at 2am on Sunday morning. Putting up fuel tax adds the same amount of cost (more or less) to all miles driven whether that's on very congested or very uncongested roads.

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Doesn't achieve the objective at all. The objective is to make it very very expensive to drive a mile on the A4 into London at 8:30am on a weekday, while making it cheap to drive a mile on a country A-road in Scotland at 2am on Sunday morning. Putting up fuel tax adds the same amount of cost (more or less) to all miles driven whether that's on very congested or very uncongested roads.

Is it really about congestion though – most people agree here that putting tax on the fuel would be a better idea – and if fuel was twice as expensive people would use public transport, which eases congestion.

I think the real point is to create jobs – create more control on people – increase tax revenue at UK’s expense, most people cannot see lot’s of little taxes like this but they would complain if fuel doubled even thought they would be better off!

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Why could we not have a MOT disk in the place of a tax disk? And ok the insurance may be a pipe dream but it could be a basic insurance for covering uninsured drivers + for when push bikes / pedestrians are involved

The Motor Insurance Industry already has such a scheme in place, covers 90% of your losses if you are insured and the other driver isn't.

Road pricing will ruin everyone's lives and destroy businesses in exactly the same way the congestion charge did. Oh.. hang on a second, it didn't. Car drivers can bite my shiny metal ass.

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Car drivers can bite my shiny metal ass.

I am presuming you are motor biker scum who for some reason avoid the congestion charge – do you think that you will avoid this tax – I can see you now on your 125cc with a huge box of electronics on the back and a massive alternator strapped to the engine to power it all – max speed 25 miles an hour. Ps the biker scum bit is just a joke as I used to ride to London before I STR in the country where it’s hard to justify having a bike.

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Indeed. The point of the system is to control people... the fact that it will be economically devastating is irrelevant to them.

I'm so glad I'm getting out of this country.

I've got out as far as houses go and best move i've made

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Is it really about congestion though – most people agree here that putting tax on the fuel would be a better idea – and if fuel was twice as expensive people would use public transport, which eases congestion.

I think the real point is to create jobs – create more control on people – increase tax revenue at UK’s expense, most people cannot see lot’s of little taxes like this but they would complain if fuel doubled even thought they would be better off!

The extra complexity of road charging would buy a bit more precision but a massive hike in fuel tax would still work because it is much less fuel efficient to drive in a traffic jam.

Edited by BoredTrainBuilder

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  • 302 Brexit, House prices and Summer 2020

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      • down 5% +
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