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Audi To Pilot Wind Turbine Powered Cars

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Audi are to pilot a wind turbine to methane generation system to power a fleet of gas powered cars as compressed natural gas (CNG). Electrolysers will be used to generate hydrogen from 4 wind turbines in the North Sea, starting in 2013. Synthetic methane or 'e-gas' will be created via the methanation of hydrogen produced by electrolysis (although plenty of successful trials have been done running cars on pure H2 also). LINK

  • Audi will contribute to the construction of 4 x 3.6 MW offshore wind turbines in the North Sea
  • The e-gas plant that will produce around 1,000 metric tons of e-gas annually
  • Surplus output can be stored as for months as e-gas, or the H2 burnt a few hours later to generate leccy for the grid
  • Storage can exploit the 220 terawatt hours of existing gas storage (electricity storage capacity at present of just 0.04 TW) LINK

There are many other obvious applications for this technology, e.g. feeding the methane into the gas mains, or storing it to burn at times of peak leccy demand, or even feedstock for fertiliser manufacturing. Audi are no doubt bearing looming peak oil in mind and wanting to stay in business.

It's the answer to situations such as recently arose in Scotland, where wind turbines had to be switched off as there was no demand for their power - with this they could have been switched to H generation mode and kept running.

The source of the energy doesn't have to be wind turbines either, cheap solar will do the job in sunnier parts of the globe.

This is actually quite mature technology, but it's good to see engineering scale trials by the big players. Build more wind turbines, and build them NOW!

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Audi are to pilot a wind turbine to methane generation system to power a fleet of gas powered cars as compressed natural gas (CNG). Electrolysers will be used to generate hydrogen from 4 wind turbines in the North Sea, starting in 2013. Synthetic methane or 'e-gas' will be created via the methanation of hydrogen produced by electrolysis (although plenty of successful trials have been done running cars on pure H2 also). LINK

  • Audi will contribute to the construction of 4 x 3.6 MW offshore wind turbines in the North Sea
  • The e-gas plant that will produce around 1,000 metric tons of e-gas annually
  • Surplus output can be stored as for months as e-gas, or the H2 burnt a few hours later to generate leccy for the grid
  • Storage can exploit the 220 terawatt hours of existing gas storage (electricity storage capacity at present of just 0.04 TW) LINK

There are many other obvious applications for this technology, e.g. feeding the methane into the gas mains, or storing it to burn at times of peak leccy demand, or even feedstock for fertiliser manufacturing. Audi are no doubt bearing looming peak oil in mind and wanting to stay in business.

It's the answer to situations such as recently arose in Scotland, where wind turbines had to be switched off as there was no demand for their power - with this they could have been switched to H generation mode and kept running.

The source of the energy doesn't have to be wind turbines either, cheap solar will do the job in sunnier parts of the globe.

This is actually quite mature technology, but it's good to see engineering scale trials by the big players. Build more wind turbines, and build them NOW!

That gives me a great idea.Bolt a wind turbine to the roof.As you drive along the turbine powers a motor...drives the car..turns the wind turbine....Simples!

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Sounds good. The main problem with wind energy is that it can be there when you don't need it and not there when you do. H2 or CH4 on the other hand, are transportable and storable.

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That gives me a great idea.Bolt a wind turbine to the roof.As you drive along the turbine powers a motor...drives the car..turns the wind turbine....Simples!

:D

Only two problems with that idea...

1/ You need a water supply.

2/ Under-unity return on investment.

But keep it up, Britain needs original thinkers!

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Sounds good. The main problem with wind energy is that it can be there when you don't need it and not there when you do.

Which is why they are creating gas with it. wink.gif

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Just leaves Mrs Merkin to find a way to annexe the North Sea. 'Spose she can add it to her list.........

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Audi are to pilot a wind turbine to methane generation system to power a fleet of gas powered cars as compressed natural gas (CNG). Electrolysers will be used to generate hydrogen from 4 wind turbines in the North Sea, starting in 2013. Synthetic methane or 'e-gas' will be created via the methanation of hydrogen produced by electrolysis (although plenty of successful trials have been done running cars on pure H2 also). LINK

  • Audi will contribute to the construction of 4 x 3.6 MW offshore wind turbines in the North Sea
  • The e-gas plant that will produce around 1,000 metric tons of e-gas annually
  • Surplus output can be stored as for months as e-gas, or the H2 burnt a few hours later to generate leccy for the grid
  • Storage can exploit the 220 terawatt hours of existing gas storage (electricity storage capacity at present of just 0.04 TW) LINK

There are many other obvious applications for this technology, e.g. feeding the methane into the gas mains, or storing it to burn at times of peak leccy demand, or even feedstock for fertiliser manufacturing. Audi are no doubt bearing looming peak oil in mind and wanting to stay in business.

It's the answer to situations such as recently arose in Scotland, where wind turbines had to be switched off as there was no demand for their power - with this they could have been switched to H generation mode and kept running.

The source of the energy doesn't have to be wind turbines either, cheap solar will do the job in sunnier parts of the globe.

This is actually quite mature technology, but it's good to see engineering scale trials by the big players. Build more wind turbines, and build them NOW!

I wonder what the efficiency of it is?

I mean - 10kwh of electricity produces how many kwh of gas?

I suspect there's an enormous loss, happy to be corrected.

I like the principle though.

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I wonder what the efficiency of it is?

I mean - 10kwh of electricity produces how many kwh of gas?

I suspect there's an enormous loss, happy to be corrected.

I like the principle though.

Approximately half of the energy is lost converting wind into hydrogen.

Batteries = 10% loss

Pump storage = 20-30% loss

Compressed air = 40% loss

Still, as has been pointed out, hydrogen is particularly useful as a fuel for vehicles because of its high energy to weight density. For example, you couldn't get a plane off the ground using batteries.

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I wonder what the efficiency of it is?

I mean - 10kwh of electricity produces how many kwh of gas?

I suspect there's an enormous loss, happy to be corrected.

I like the principle though.

According to Audi:

The efficiency ratio of the e-gas pilot plant – from wind turbine to methane

gas – is about 54 percent. If the dissipated heat is also used, this value is

higher still. The aim is to achieve an efficiency ratio above 60%.

The potential to store large quantities of energy –

made possible by pairing electricity with gas on the one hand as well as

wind energy and solar energy on the other – can truly invigorate the

expansion of renewable sources of energy.

As they point out, there is already in place a gas storage network capable of storing 217TWh in germany. the electrical power grids capacity is less than 1TWh, and the power grids can transport only 10% of the energy that the gas network can. Link = http://www.audiworld.com/news/11/balanced-mobility/

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Still, as has been pointed out, hydrogen is particularly useful as a fuel for vehicles because of its high energy to weight density.

Except of course, for getting a decent amount (in weight) of hydrogen into something the size of a car ;)

Audi are going to all this trouble why don't they just a) advocate nukes for all that leccy and B) synthesise a hydrocarbon fuel that will go into the vast majority of existing petrol vehicles.

Hydrogen is a very inconvenient energy storage medium.

For acceptable vehicle range it needs to be stored either as:

Gas at a very high pressure (700 bar) in a pressure vessel

– Density of H2 at RTP = 0.09 kg/m3 (methane is 10 x more dense!)

– Density at 700 bar = 57.5 kg/m3, Qv = 120 MJ/kg

– Density of gasoline = 740 kg/m3, Qv = 44 MJ/kg

– Volumetric energy density ratio: gasoline / hydrogen = 4.72

– Pressurisation requires up to 20% of fuel energy.

Liquid at a very low temperature (-253oC) in a cryogenic tank

– Density is still only 70 kg/m3

– Liquefaction requires up to 40% of fuel energy.

http://nearyou.imeche.org/NR/rdonlyres/077513EC-BB25-465B-BFA3-530925C04CBC/5011/22_01_08_TransportationFuelsfortheFuture_p3.pdf

http://nearyou.imeche.org/NR/rdonlyres/077513EC-BB25-465B-BFA3-530925C04CBC/5012/22_01_08_TransportationFuelsfortheFuture_p4.pdf

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It's the answer to situations such as recently arose in Scotland, where wind turbines had to be switched off as there was no demand for their power - with this they could have been switched to H generation mode and kept running.

The source of the energy doesn't have to be wind turbines either, cheap solar will do the job in sunnier parts of the globe.

This is actually quite mature technology, but it's good to see engineering scale trials by the big players. Build more wind turbines, and build them NOW!

WIn turbines are a ridulous idea when compared to the MASSIVE potential for Hydro in Scotland. Scotland could power the whole of Europe without trouble and no-one would ever see any of the facilities because there is so much space. All owned by 50 people who wont let it happen.

you couldn't get a plane off the ground using batteries.
Yes you could. I just wouldn't plan on crossing any oceans. Or lakes. Or ponds.

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Yes you could. I just wouldn't plan on crossing any oceans. Or lakes. Or ponds.

The Soviet had a solution for that:

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WIn turbines are a ridulous idea when compared to the MASSIVE potential for Hydro in Scotland. Scotland could power the whole of Europe without trouble

[citation required]

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Except of course, for getting a decent amount (in weight) of hydrogen into something the size of a car ;)

Audi are going to all this trouble why don't they just a) advocate nukes for all that leccy and B) synthesise a hydrocarbon fuel that will go into the vast majority of existing petrol vehicles.

Where do you get the carbon from for the hydrocarbon fuel, in a form that doesn't involve burning already-available carbon? I suppose in theory you could extract it from the air (getting anywhere near enough might be a problem although the whole concept of biomass-produced fuel essentially relies on it so it may be practical), and would really upset the greenies - you'd get to drive around with no net CO2 contribution and without having to change your car to one powered by a rubber band, leaving them with not a lot to complain about. And if that isn't an incentive I don't know what is!

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Where do you get the carbon from for the hydrocarbon fuel, in a form that doesn't involve burning already-available carbon? I suppose in theory you could extract it from the air (getting anywhere near enough might be a problem although the whole concept of biomass-produced fuel essentially relies on it so it may be practical), and would really upset the greenies - you'd get to drive around with no net CO2 contribution and without having to change your car to one powered by a rubber band, leaving them with not a lot to complain about. And if that isn't an incentive I don't know what is!

Until recently (possibly even still) there were plans to catch CO2 from fossil fuel power generation and bury it in empty oil resevoirs (groos over-simplification). Also there's plenty of carbon from heavy industrial output, I recall cement/concrete produces lots.

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Where do you get the carbon from for the hydrocarbon fuel, in a form that doesn't involve burning already-available carbon? I suppose in theory you could extract it from the air (getting anywhere near enough might be a problem although the whole concept of biomass-produced fuel essentially relies on it so it may be practical), and would really upset the greenies - you'd get to drive around with no net CO2 contribution and without having to change your car to one powered by a rubber band, leaving them with not a lot to complain about. And if that isn't an incentive I don't know what is!

You can't take the carbon out of the AIR!!! Think of the trees!

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Where do you get the carbon from for the hydrocarbon fuel, in a form that doesn't involve burning already-available carbon? I suppose in theory you could extract it from the air (getting anywhere near enough might be a problem although the whole concept of biomass-produced fuel essentially relies on it so it may be practical), and would really upset the greenies - you'd get to drive around with no net CO2 contribution and without having to change your car to one powered by a rubber band, leaving them with not a lot to complain about. And if that isn't an incentive I don't know what is!

The carbon comes from CO2 in the air. As the link I posted says:

Audi will also combine hydrogen with CO2 in an additional step to manufacture methane. ... It can power combustion engines designed for use with natural gas; as of 2013, Audi will begin series production of such models, designated TCNG.

Methanation is particularly advantageous in that the reaction occurs with the aid of CO2, which consequently is not discharged into the atmosphere. ...

The Audi e-gas project furthermore exhibits a tremendous advantage from which Germany's entire energy-supply industry can benefit: In the form of methane, electricity generated via renewable energy can be fed into the natural-gas network – which helps to solve the problem of how to store surplus wind or solar energy. If necessary, this energy can flow from the gas network back to the power grid at any time.

Methanation increases the molecular weight of the hydrogen and makes it easier to store and use - there are already millions of compressed natural gas cars in the world.

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WIn turbines are a ridulous idea when compared to the MASSIVE potential for Hydro in Scotland. Scotland could power the whole of Europe without trouble and no-one would ever see any of the facilities because there is so much space.

Sorry, that's just not even close to being true according to the physicists: LINK

It can produce a theoretical max of 7kwh per person per per day (less than 2kwh in practice) - much more than at present but massively short of the 196 kwh/day we each use on average in the UK. LINK

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The carbon comes from CO2 in the air. As the link I posted says:

Audi will also combine hydrogen with CO2 in an additional step to manufacture methane. ... It can power combustion engines designed for use with natural gas; as of 2013, Audi will begin series production of such models, designated TCNG.

So it is practical after all? Very interesting! The only downside is that I can't stand wind turbines, and it somewhat weakens one of my arguments against them :) Link it up to a nuke and I'll be happy.

Methanation is particularly advantageous in that the reaction occurs with the aid of CO2, which consequently is not discharged into the atmosphere. ...

Well, it is discharged when you burn the methane, but that's net no change in atmospheric CO2 so nothing for the Greens to get worked up about.

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Audi are to pilot a wind turbine to methane generation system to power a fleet of gas powered cars as compressed natural gas (CNG). Electrolysers will be used to generate hydrogen from 4 wind turbines in the North Sea, starting in 2013. Synthetic methane or 'e-gas' will be created via the methanation of hydrogen produced by electrolysis (although plenty of successful trials have been done running cars on pure H2 also). LINK

  • Audi will contribute to the construction of 4 x 3.6 MW offshore wind turbines in the North Sea
  • The e-gas plant that will produce around 1,000 metric tons of e-gas annually
  • Surplus output can be stored as for months as e-gas, or the H2 burnt a few hours later to generate leccy for the grid
  • Storage can exploit the 220 terawatt hours of existing gas storage (electricity storage capacity at present of just 0.04 TW) LINK

There are many other obvious applications for this technology, e.g. feeding the methane into the gas mains, or storing it to burn at times of peak leccy demand, or even feedstock for fertiliser manufacturing. Audi are no doubt bearing looming peak oil in mind and wanting to stay in business.

It's the answer to situations such as recently arose in Scotland, where wind turbines had to be switched off as there was no demand for their power - with this they could have been switched to H generation mode and kept running.

The source of the energy doesn't have to be wind turbines either, cheap solar will do the job in sunnier parts of the globe.

This is actually quite mature technology, but it's good to see engineering scale trials by the big players. Build more wind turbines, and build them NOW!

Hmm. I have always thought electrolysis of sea water into hydrogen and oxygen gas from offshore wind turbines was a fantastic idea....

until I realised that when one runs electricity through seawater, it creates hydrogen, oxygen............chlorine (a deadly, dangerous gas) and sodium hydroxide (a substance that can be used to dissolve dead bodies).

As has been discussed on here, the only soloution to the energy crisis is massive scale hydro-projects and desert-solar projects. Everything else is finite or too complicated/deadly/expensive.

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That gives me a great idea.Bolt a wind turbine to the roof.As you drive along the turbine powers a motor...drives the car..turns the wind turbine....Simples!

I always liked the idea of a torch which shone onto a solar panel which fed the battery....

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Sorry, that's just not even close to being true according to the physicists: LINK

It can produce a theoretical max of 7kwh per person per per day (less than 2kwh in practice) - much more than at present but massively short of the 196 kwh/day we each use on average in the UK. LINK

It's a load of rubbish. You don't have to juggle numbers, you just need to look at all the huge valleys in Scotland.

They've probably worked on the basis of dams identical to current dams or conversion of current lakes or something stupid like that. Anyone with google maps can see the magnitude of water available.

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Hmm. I have always thought electrolysis of sea water into hydrogen and oxygen gas from offshore wind turbines was a fantastic idea....

until I realised that when one runs electricity through seawater, it creates hydrogen, oxygen............chlorine (a deadly, dangerous gas) and sodium hydroxide (a substance that can be used to dissolve dead bodies).

As has been discussed on here, the only soloution to the energy crisis is massive scale hydro-projects and desert-solar projects. Everything else is finite or too complicated/deadly/expensive.

Desalinate it first if that's your worry, although that'll reduce the efficiency of hydrogen production seeing as desalination takes a fair amount of energy.

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  • 284 Brexit, House prices and Summer 2020

    1. 1. Including the effects Brexit, where do you think average UK house prices will be relative to now in June 2020?


      • down 5% +
      • down 2.5%
      • Even
      • up 2.5%
      • up 5%



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