Government Theft Of Your Assets

[Guest_ringledman_*]

With all the moves around the US and Europe to steal hard working individuals pension assets and move them into wortless government bonds; i.e. stealing individual's long term assets for the purpose of funding short term budget spending and returning inflated paper conffetti bonds in return.

http://www.maggiesnotebook.com/2011/01/seized-pensions-france-ireland-hungary-poland-bulgaria/

Likewise it cant be long until SIPPs and ISAs lose their tax status.

Gold to be made illegal?

What is the strategy for avoiding government theft?

I see a time where an individual's principle main residence may be the only tax advantaged and inflation proofed asset left, as overpriced as property is currently.

What is the history of government theft in the UK?

Apart from inflation theft is there any history of a UK government directly and blatently appropriating hard earned assets of the masses?

[piece of paper]

....................................

................. is there any history of a UK government directly and blatently appropriating hard earned assets of the masses?

"................. is there any history of a UK government not directly and blatently appropriating hard earned assets of the masses?"

.....might elicit briefer replies.

p-o-p

[LuckyOne]

With all the moves around the US and Europe to steal hard working individuals pension assets and move them into wortless government bonds; i.e. stealing individual's long term assets for the purpose of funding short term budget spending and returning inflated paper conffetti bonds in return.

http://www.maggiesnotebook.com/2011/01/seized-pensions-france-ireland-hungary-poland-bulgaria/

Likewise it cant be long until SIPPs and ISAs lose their tax status.

Gold to be made illegal?

What is the strategy for avoiding government theft?

I see a time where an individual's principle main residence may be the only tax advantaged and inflation proofed asset left, as overpriced as property is currently.

What is the history of government theft in the UK?

Apart from inflation theft is there any history of a UK government directly and blatently appropriating hard earned assets of the masses?

Immovable property is a very easy target for a cash starved government with a need to raise taxes. It offers no protection at all. In fact, it is the route to a material claim against future income if the tax bill on property gets large enough.

In your scenario, the most valuable asset is probably to have two or three passports (with only one of them being an EU passport).

The best way to extract value from this critical asset is to have a diverse and mobile portfolio (across asset classes, currencies and holding domiciles).

The ability to opt out of the grasp, and the consequences of stupid behaviour, of any particular state is massively more important than the decision about asset allocations within a particular state.

[salamander]

Avatar to the left. That is all.

[General Congreve]

As Lucky One says, property is technically an easy target, the only advantage to it is that there is safety in numbers. It would probably be an onerous task for any government to try and implement a significant tax penalty on home ownership.

Of course with precious metals, your average man, even your average wealthy man, is not a holder. Therefore, gold holders would be an easy target that would probably not invoke a great deal of public anger should draconian taxes on their trade or confiscation be enacted. This is why it is imperative you hold physical bullion, because a Bullionvault/Goldmoney account can be seized at a key stroke and there is no way a position can be sold out without the authorities tracking it. BTW, when I talk about gold I'm talking bullion, not jewellery, there's no way in the world any government would attempt to outlaw wedding rings and get away with it!

Edited June 6, 2011 by General Congreve

[Timm]

Short fiat.

I know y'all know how shorting works, but I'll repeat it to explain my comment.

1. Borrow the asset class you want to short.

2. Sell it.

3. Wait.

4. Buy it back, repay your debt and keep the margin.

The questions are, what do you sell it for and how long do you keep the trade open?

[Britney's Piers]

Making gold illegal would only increase its value, not decrease it. Like illegal drugs.

Of course with precious metals, your average man, even your average wealthy man, is not a holder. Therefore, gold holders would be an easy target that would probably not invoke a great deal of public anger should draconian taxes on their trade or confiscation be enacted. This is why it is imperative you hold physical bullion, because a Bullionvault/Goldmoney account can be seized at a key stroke and there is no way a position can be sold out without the authorities tracking it. BTW, when I talk about gold I'm talking bullion, not jewellery, there's no way in the world any government would attempt to outlaw wedding rings and get away with it!

Why would they bother with the small percentage of gold out there, for all that effort. They would just take fiat right out of people's banks account if they were to loot outright - in FACT they already do this, Cameron raided "dormant" accounts to get money for big society project! If you are being chased by a bear, you don't need to run faster than the bear, just faster than the slowest runners. Bank accounts are easier to get to than physical bullion (which is the hardest to get to).

Edited June 6, 2011 by Britney's Piers

[General Congreve]

Short fiat.

I know y'all know how shorting works, but I'll repeat it to explain my comment.

1. Borrow the asset class you want to short.

2. Sell it.

3. Wait.

4. Buy it back, repay your debt and keep the margin.

The questions are, what do you sell it for and how long do you keep the trade open?

If you want to short fiat and you are worried about how long to keep the trade open, then just buy and hold gold.

It is an automatic short bet on all fiat, no need to sell and buy at the right time, just buy and hold, for good, because what we are entering into is the remonetisation of gold. Wouldn't advise using leverage on any trade though.

[General Congreve]

Making gold illegal would only increase its value, not decrease it. Like illegal drugs.

Too true. It would be an open admission that fiat is in it's final death throes and that you must let no one prize your gold from your hands at any (fiat) price.

Edited June 6, 2011 by General Congreve

[scrappycocco]

They won't go after the houses because the majority are home owners aren't they - massive discontent -> party voted out?

Surely their more likely to go after those in the minority that hold pm's and/or have savings - these people will be sacrificed for the good of the majority using the excuse that it's okay because only the rich hold such assets (it's already happened, our savings have been destroyed for those in debt). My goldmoney account could vanish at the flick of a keystroke but I'm hoping that there will be plenty of clues as to what the government's plans are, giving me time to get my money out of pm's and into fiatcrap.

[General Congreve]

I see you're having a look at the thread Bumpy, I'm interested to hear your views on the topic are?

Edited June 6, 2011 by General Congreve

[Timm]

If you want to short fiat and you are worried about how long to keep the trade open, then just buy and hold gold.

I already hold all the PMs I am comfortable holding.

But I am greedy and afraid.

A bad evil combination.

It is an automatic short bet on all fiat, no need to sell and buy at the right time, just buy and hold, for good,

It's not the risk I mind, it's the lack of scale.

because what we are entering into is the remonetisation of gold.

Maybe we are, maybe we ain't.

That's just another gamble.

Wouldn't advise using leverage on any [PM] trade though.

Exactly.

[General Congreve]

They won't go after the houses because the majority are home owners aren't they - massive discontent -> party voted out?

Surely their more likely to go after those in the minority that hold pm's and/or have savings - these people will be sacrificed for the good of the majority using the excuse that it's okay because only the rich hold such assets (it's already happened, our savings have been destroyed for those in debt). My goldmoney account could vanish at the flick of a keystroke but I'm hoping that there will be plenty of clues as to what the government's plans are, giving me time to get my money out of pm's and into fiatcrap.

Why not just buy physical instead and save yourself the worry for the sake of a couple of % margin?

There is nothing to say the government couldn't enact emergency legislation over a weekend to freeze your goldmoney account or that they couldn't even legislate retroactively and charge tax on past sales.

[General Congreve]

It's not the risk I mind, it's the lack of scale.

So you'd rather be greedy and use leverage betting on fiat currencies through spread betting etc.?

Exactly.

But leverage on currency trades is fine?

Edited June 6, 2011 by General Congreve

[Britney's Piers]

They won't go after the houses because the majority are home owners aren't they - massive discontent -> party voted out?

Surely their more likely to go after those in the minority that hold pm's and/or have savings - these people will be sacrificed for the good of the majority using the excuse that it's okay because only the rich hold such assets (it's already happened, our savings have been destroyed for those in debt). My goldmoney account could vanish at the flick of a keystroke but I'm hoping that there will be plenty of clues as to what the government's plans are, giving me time to get my money out of pm's and into fiatcrap.

You should get into physical.

Look at the cost/benefit from their point of view, of confiscating physical bullion. They have to track down everyone holding it, send people round there. If you deny it they have to bring you in, send people round to search the house, dig up the garden, go to banks or storage containers or PO boxes, etc etc. All for what may only be a few ounces. In the end the cost will outweigh the value of the metal they are looking for. So maybe only large rich holders will be targeted. for the small fish holding metals, forget about it you're "safe as houses".

Edited June 6, 2011 by Britney's Piers

[General Congreve]

Bank accounts are easier to get to than physical bullion (which is the hardest to get to).

Very true. Just see the rampant money printing and negative real interest rates which are doing the job of stealing people's savings from their accounts and pay cheques as we speak.

Still wouldn't be complacent about gold though, if they see an easy target like electronic gold accounts I could see them going for it at some stage.

[salamander]

They won't go after the houses because the majority are home owners aren't they - massive discontent -> party voted out?

Surely their more likely to go after those in the minority that hold pm's and/or have savings - these people will be sacrificed for the good of the majority using the excuse that it's okay because only the rich hold such assets (it's already happened, our savings have been destroyed for those in debt). My goldmoney account could vanish at the flick of a keystroke but I'm hoping that there will be plenty of clues as to what the government's plans are, giving me time to get my money out of pm's and into fiatcrap.

I can see PM snatching perhaps happening for paper or bars - that's what the "rich" have. Trying to steal goid that is currrently treated by HMRC as currency (I'm talking sovs and brits here) is a more risky bet because it would validate it as a means of exchange, potentially leading to an underground network of high-value transactions for which no tax could ever be collected.

[Timm]

So you'd rather be greedy and use leverage betting on fiat currencies through spread betting etc.?

Not quite.

I'm getting back into property.

Whilst I think property will fall, I think fiat sterling will fall faster.

But leverage on currency trades is fine?

I'm far too stupid to get into that game.

Edit: - Strikethrough and:

Does anyone have any other ideas of how you can bet on an increase in base money bank capital, relative to credit money bank assets?

Edited June 6, 2011 by Timm

[General Congreve]

Not quite.

I'm getting back into property.

Whilst I think property will fall, I think fiat will fall faster.

Aha, see what you mean, but are you using a mortgage to do this?

[okaycuckoo]

Simple solution.

Refuse to pay tax, refuse to pay rent.

Plenty of people at it already, more needed.

[pepactonius]

You should get into physical.

Look at the cost/benefit from their point of view, of confiscating physical bullion. They have to track down everyone holding it, send people round there. If you deny it they have to bring you in, send people round to search the house, dig up the garden, go to banks or storage containers or PO boxes, etc etc. All for what may only be a few ounces. In the end the cost will outweigh the value of the metal they are looking for. So maybe only large rich holders will be targeted. for the small fish holding metals, forget about it you're "safe as houses".

Couldn't the government just raise the capital gains tax on precious metals to 75% or so, and make holding gold almost pointless? I suppose if there's a total collapse you'd still have the gold after the government is gone, but I'm not sure how much good that would do if there's total chaos and anarchy everywhere.

[Timm]

Aha, see what you mean, but are you using a mortgage to do this?

Yup, that's the point.

75% loan, fixed @ <5% for ten years.

IMHO, current market price: around 20% below last sale.

5% capital investment should may result in 10% uplift in static market.

I'm not pretending that this is not a gamble, but in my idiot brain, it appears to offer me relatively cheap housing allied to a fairly low cost bet against the value of credit money relative to wages. And if they want to tax me to destruction, they'll destroy my debt too.

So they won't.

[_w_]

Immovable property is a very easy target for a cash starved government with a need to raise taxes. It offers no protection at all. In fact, it is the route to a material claim against future income if the tax bill on property gets large enough.

In your scenario, the most valuable asset is probably to have two or three passports (with only one of them being an EU passport).

The best way to extract value from this critical asset is to have a diverse and mobile portfolio (across asset classes, currencies and holding domiciles).

The ability to opt out of the grasp, and the consequences of stupid behaviour, of any particular state is massively more important than the decision about asset allocations within a particular state.

http://www.sovereignman.com/expat/heres-a-radical-idea-stop-being-a-milk-cow

[_w_]

Edit: - Strikethrough and:

Does anyone have any other ideas of how you can bet on an increase in base money bank capital, relative to credit money bank assets?

Short bank shares?

[Guest tbatst2000]

Why not just buy physical instead and save yourself the worry for the sake of a couple of % margin?

There is nothing to say the government couldn't enact emergency legislation over a weekend to freeze your goldmoney account or that they couldn't even legislate retroactively and charge tax on past sales.

They won't go after gold for the simple reason that there's not enough of it to be worth the hassle. As the OP's link says, it'll be pension assets (ok, some of which may be in gold ETFs and the like) that they'll sequester. It's yet another reason why ISAs are probably a better bet for most people when it comes to investing for retirement. Although ISAs would be another easy target and 'justifiable' on the grounds that people have had lots of tax free returns over the years.