THE GREAT BIG FAT GREEK THREAD

[Errol]

[billybong]

http://www.dailyreckoning.com.au/why-europe-hasn%E2%80%99t-solved-the-greek-debt-crisis/2012/02/22/

Besides, under the "collective action clauses" we mentioned yesterday, the Greek government can pass a law which, according to BW, "allow it to enforce losses on bondholders refusing to take up the offer. The government would need support from the owners of 50 percent of the bonds to force the rest to accept."

It just doesn't seem like capitalism or democracy for that matter.

[Errol]

Banksters making a play for the stuff that's actually worth having ...

Ms. Katseli, an economist who was labor minister in the government of George Papandreou until she left in a cabinet reshuffle last June, was also upset that Greece’s lenders will have the right to seize the gold reserves in the Bank of Greece under the terms of the new deal

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/02/22/world/europe/euro-zone-leaders-agree-on-new-greek-bailout.html?_r=1

[interestrateripoff]

Banksters making a play for the stuff that's actually worth having ...

Ms. Katseli, an economist who was labor minister in the government of George Papandreou until she left in a cabinet reshuffle last June, was also upset that Greece’s lenders will have the right to seize the gold reserves in the Bank of Greece under the terms of the new deal

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/02/22/world/europe/euro-zone-leaders-agree-on-new-greek-bailout.html?_r=1

When will they want the children?

[dances with sheeple]

http://www.zerohedge...-european-banks

Brilliant at least there is no doubt about who's running the show and everything is for the bankers...

Greeks are going to be poor whatever happens? Better to be poor with no debt than poor with never ending debt? How long can the bankers keep this Farce rolling? and will investors facing massive losses dare to torpedo the whole thing?

Edited February 23, 2012 by dances with sheeple

[billybong]

The statement on the "agreement".

It will be interesting to see how it turns out as time goes on.

21.02.2012

Eurogroup statement

The Eurogroup welcomes the agreement reached with the Greek government on a policy package that constitutes the basis for the successor programme. We also welcome theapproval of the policy package by the Greek parliament, the identification of additionalstructural expenditure reductions of € 325 million to close the fiscal gap in 2012 and the provision of assurances by the leaders of the two coalition parties regarding theimplementation of the programme beyond the forthcoming general elections.This new programme provides a comprehensive blueprint for putting the public finances andthe economy of Greece back on a sustainable footing and hence for safeguarding financialstability in Greece and in the euro area as a whole.The Eurogroup is fully aware of the significant efforts already made by the Greek citizens butalso underlines that further major efforts by the Greek society are needed to return theeconomy to a sustainable growth path.Ensuring debt sustainability and restoring competiveness are the main goals of the new programme. Its success hinges critically on its thorough implementation by Greece. Thisimplies that Greece must achieve the ambitious but realistic fiscal consolidation targets so asto return to a primary surplus as from 2013, carry out fully the privatisation plans andimplement the bold structural reform agenda, in both the labour market and product andservice markets, in order to promote competitiveness, employment and sustainable growth.To this end, we deem essential a further strengthening of Greece's institutional capacity. Wetherefore invite the Commission to significantly strengthen its Task Force for Greece, in particular through an enhanced and permanent presence on the ground in Greece, in order to bolster its capacity to provide and coordinate technical assistance. Euro area Member Statesstand ready to provide experts to be integrated into the Task Force. The Eurogroup alsowelcomes the stronger on site-monitoring capacity by the Commission to work in close andcontinuous cooperation with the Greek government in order to assist the Troika in assessingthe conformity of measures that will be taken by the Greek government, thereby ensuring thetimely and full implementation of the programme. The Eurogroup also welcomes Greece'sintention to put in place a mechanism that allows better tracing and monitoring of the official borrowing and internally-generated funds destined to service Greece's debt by, under monitoring of the troika, paying an amount corresponding to the coming quarter's debt servicedirectly to a segregated account of Greece's paying agent. Finally, the Eurogroup in thiscontext welcomes the intention of the Greek authorities to introduce over the next two monthsin the Greek legal framework a provision ensuring that priority is granted to debt servicing payments. This provision will be introduced in the Greek constitution as soon as possible.

The Eurogroup acknowledges the common understanding that has been reached between theGreek authorities and the private sector on the general terms of the PSI exchange offer,covering all private sector bondholders. This common understanding provides for a nominalhaircut amounting to 53.5%. The Eurogroup considers that this agreement constitutes anappropriate basis for launching the invitation for the exchange to holders of Greek government bonds (PSI). A successful PSI operation is a necessary condition for a successor programme. The Eurogroup looks forward to a high participation of private creditors in thedebt exchange, which should deliver a significant positive contribution to Greece's debtsustainability.The Eurogroup considers that the necessary elements are now in place for Member States tocarry out the relevant national procedures to allow for the provision by EFSF of (i) a buy back scheme for Greek marketable debt instruments for Eurosystem monetary policy operations,(ii) the euro area's contribution to the PSI exercise, (iii) the repayment of accrued interest onGreek government bonds, and (iv) the residual (post PSI) financing for the second Greek adjustment programme, including the necessary financing for recapitalisation of Greek banksin case of financial stability concerns.The Eurogroup takes note that the Eurosystem (ECB and NCBs) holdings of Greek government bonds have been held for public policy purposes. The Eurogroup takes note thatthe income generated by the Eurosystem holdings of Greek Government bonds will contributeto the profit of the ECB and of the NCBs. The ECB’s profit will be disbursed to the NCBs, inline with the ECB’s statutory profit distribution rules. The NCBs’ profits will be disbursed toeuro area Member States in line with the NCBs’ statutory profit distribution rules.

•

The Eurogroup has agreed that certain government revenues that emanate from the SMP profits disbursed by NCBs may be allocated by Member States to further improving thesustainability of Greece's public debt. All Member States have agreed to an additionalretroactive lowering of the interest rates of the Greek Loan Facility so that the marginamounts to 150 basis points. There will be no additional compensation for higher fundingcosts. This will bring down the debt-to-GDP ratio in 2020 by 2.8pp and lower financingneeds by around 1.4 bn euro over the programme period. National procedures for theratification of this amendment to the Greek Loan Facility Agreement need to be urgentlyinitiated so that it can enter into force as soon as possible.

•

Furthermore, governments of Member States where central banks currently hold Greek government bonds in their investment portfolio commit to pass on to Greece an amountequal to any future income accruing to their national central bank stemming from this portfolio until 2020. These income flows would be expected to help reducing the Greek debt ratio by 1.8pp by 2020 and are estimated to lower the financing needs over the programme period by approximately 1.8 bn euro.

The respective contributions from the private and the official sector should ensure thatGreece's public debt ratio is brought on a downward path reaching 120.5% of GDP by 2020.On this basis, and provided policy conditionality under the programme is met on an ongoing basis, the Eurogroup confirms that euro area Member States stand ready to provide, throughthe EFSF and with the expectation that the IMF will make a significant contribution,additional official programme of up to 130 bn euro until 2014.It is understood that the disbursements for the PSI operation and the final decision to approvethe guarantees for the second programme are subject to a successful PSI operation andconfirmation, by the Eurogroup on the basis of an assessment by the Troika, of the legalimplementation by Greece of the agreed prior actions. The official sector will decide on the precise amount of financial assistance to be provided in the context of the second Greek programme in early March, once the results of PSI are known and the prior actions have beenimplemented.We reiterate our commitment to provide adequate support to Greece during the life of the programme and beyond until it has regained market access, provided that Greece fullycomplies with the requirements and objectives of the adjustment programme.

Edited February 23, 2012 by billybong

[GloomMonger]

When will they want the children?

When children are in a bubble.

[interestrateripoff]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/debt-crisis-live/9102508/Debt-crisis-live.html

German finance minister Wolfgang Schaeuble has warned that there are "no guarantees" that a new aid package for Greece will work and that the German parliament may have to consider further bail-out funds. However, in a letter to German MPs seen by news agency Reuters, he called for support for the package in a parliamentary vote on Monday:

There are no guarantees that the chosen path will lead to success. It is also possibly not the last time that the German parliament will have to consider financial aid to Greece. Because I am convinced that the agreed path... is the most likely to lead to success and is therefore a justifiable one, I ask for your support for this package."

The chosen path won't have any success.

[interestrateripoff]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/debt-crisis-live/9102508/Debt-crisis-live.html

Clarification on what Wolfgang Schaeuble meant by further financial aid for Greece (see 12.03):

Quote The package has a three year duration. Therefore we cannot rule out that there may be further needs after this period and before 2020."

Bailout number 3 looming? Or will Greece be ejected before that point?

[leicestersq]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/debt-crisis-live/9102508/Debt-crisis-live.html

Bailout number 3 looming? Or will Greece be ejected before that point?

But did he say that he cant rule out more bailouts during this period?

[leicestersq]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/video/2012/feb/22/greece-debt-relief-animation-video

[billybong]

German finance minister Wolfgang Schaeuble has warned that there are "no guarantees" that a new aid package for Greece will work and that the German parliament may have to consider further bail-out funds. However, in a letter to German MPs seen by news agency Reuters, he called for support for the package in a parliamentary vote on Monday:

There are no guarantees that the chosen path will lead to success. It is also possibly not the last time that the German parliament will have to consider financial aid to Greece. Because I am convinced that the agreed path... is the most likely to lead to success and is therefore a justifiable one, I ask for your support for this package."

To be realistic with the German people he should be open that the bailout period needed for Greece to get real growth and to enable it to stand on its own feet economically is likely to be an order of magnitude longer than the 8 years currently being presented to the German people.

Even 50 years of bailouts likely won't be enough but it's far more realistic if they want the bailouts "to lead to success".

[leicestersq]

To be realistic with the German people he should be open that the bailout period needed for Greece to get real growth and to enable it to stand on its own feet economically is likely to be an order of magnitude longer than the 8 years currently being presented to the German people.

Even 50 years of bailouts likely won't be enough but it's far more realistic if they want the bailouts "to lead to success".

If Germany gives Greece a bailout big enough for it to make Greece solvent, even for a minute, Germany wont be.

[RedRum]

So what happens now?

Is there another major 'event' timetabled in like the March repayment date? Will the elections make any difference?

[interestrateripoff]

If Germany gives Greece a bailout big enough for it to make Greece solvent, even for a minute, Germany wont be.

Plus about 10 seconds later Greece will have spent the money and be insolvent again needing a further bailout.

[billybong]

If Germany gives Greece a bailout big enough for it to make Greece solvent, even for a minute, Germany wont be.

One of the main ideas of the Common Market and the eu was that membership would increase trade for every constituent nation and help to build up and develop each nation's productive capacity adding real growth and wealth to each member nation.

At any rate that's how it was originally presented in the UK.

They've never used the real state of affairs to justify the thing, that is living standards will increase through massively loading up with debt. The UK (and most other countries) could have done that without a Common Market or eu - in fact the UK had and to excess already.

[Bloo Loo]

One of the main ideas of the Common Market and the eu was that membership would increase trade for every constituent nation and help to build up and develop each nation's productive capacity adding real growth and wealth to each member nation.

At any rate that's how it was originally presented in the UK.

They've never used the real state of affairs to justify the thing, that is living standards will increase through massively loading up with debt. The UK (and most other countries) could have done that without a Common Market or eu - in fact the UK had and to excess already.

very true. before we entered I attended a trip to brussels and a guy presented us with the trade opportunities.

In preparation, he outlined we business people would have to seek out "partners" throughout europe to sell our wares and to buy from to sell in the UK. This was going to generate hundreds of thousands of new jobs.

I asked."dont the Germans already have warehouse equipment, accountants, office machines etc etc?>.surely they can already satisfy the market with the current arrangements?"

Turns out, after this point was debated that, as had been proven, the jobs were mainly in the public sector.

Poor old Greece, got a load more Public Sector jobs they didnt even need....so did we.

[The Masked Tulip]

I am bored with this thread now

Shouldn't it be deleted anyhow due to the fact that the global financial system has not imploded due to Greece.

In fact, there is surprisingly little bearish news out there now. Everything seems hunky dory - a bit from the firts few months of 1940.

[Ulfar]

I am bored with this thread now

Shouldn't it be deleted anyhow due to the fact that the global financial system has not imploded due to Greece.

In fact, there is surprisingly little bearish news out there now. Everything seems hunky dory - a bit from the firts few months of 1940.

Well you have just gone and done it, Greece will be done by the end of the weekend now.

[beccles]

[interestrateripoff]

Brilliant.

[tinker]

Brilliant.

John Lennon on Ouzo.

[Bloo Loo]

John Lennon on Ouzo.

HELP!

(Lennon & McCartney)

I need somebody (Help)

Not just anybody (Help)

You know I need someone (Help)

When I was younger, so much younger than today

I never needed anybody's help in any way

But now these days are gone

I'm not so self assured

Now I find I've changed my mind

I've opened up the doors

Help me if you can, I'm feeling down

And I do appreciate you being 'round

Help me get my feet back on the ground

Won't you please, please help me

And now my life hand changed in oh, so many ways

My independence seems to vanish in the haze

But every now and then I feel so insecure

I know that I just need you like

I've never done before

Help me if you can, I'm feeling down

And I do appreciate you being 'round

Help me get my feet back on the ground

Won't you please, please help me

When I was younger, so much younger than today

I never needed anybody's help in any way

But now these days are gone

I'm not so self assured

Now I find I've changed my mind

I've opened up the doors

Help me if you can, I'm feeling down

And I do appreciate you being 'round

Help me get my feet back on the ground

Won't you please, please help me, me, me, Oo

Edited February 25, 2012 by Bloo Loo

[billybong]

http://www

.greeceischanging.com/who-we-are/

http://www

.greeceischanging.com/supporters/

Give Greece a Chance. For sure.

They present a lot of charts etc to try to show how they think Greece is improving its economy etc. They mention high rates of fiscal consolidation just after one of the biggest bailouts ever???

Definition:

Fiscal consolidation is a policy aimed at reducing government deficits and debt accumulation.

[interestrateripoff]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/financialcrisis/9106264/German-cabinet-minister-calls-for-Greek-euro-exit.html

Becoming the first member of Germany’s cabinet to openly call for a Greek exit, Hans-Peter Friedrich told Der Spiegel magazine that Greece’s chances of restoring its financial health would be greater outside the euro.

“I’m not saying that Greece should be thrown out but rather to create incentives that it can’t say ‘no’ to,” he added.

His comments came as eurozone leaders faced calls to increase their own efforts before any more money is made available from the IMF. Fresh from agreeing a second €130bn (£110bn) bail-out for Greece, there were hopes that this weekend’s gathering of G20 finance ministers in Mexico City would achieve a deal on how to ramp up the IMF’s own European war chest by as much as $600bn (£378bn).

Can't find the Der Spiegel version but it appears the rhetoric is starting to step up a gear, especially as the bailout has been "agreed".