THE GREAT BIG FAT GREEK THREAD

[tomandlu]

My theory...

Behind the scenes, what's going in is a planned Greek withdrawal from the euro, which will be followed by default. I suggest this purely on that it seems to send the right signals to everybody.

[unclefester]

They got bills they're multiplying, and they're losing control....

From the new film: Greece

[newbie]

Everyone talks about 'six million Jews', nobody mentions 16 million Germans exterminated after 1945. Well, they had it coming, didn't they? But hey, they got a bit of debt relief.

That's a completely unjustified claim. Where, how and by whom were these people supposedly killed? What sources and evidence back this up?

[Ned Coates]

That's a completely unjustified claim. Where, how and by whom were these people supposedly killed? What sources and evidence back this up?

I shouldn't think you'll get much evidence from the Eastern theatre of ops'. Perhaps that "16" million figure has the same validity as the "six million" figure.

We'll never know exactly how many wrt either the jews or germans post war. An awful lot though.

[Ned Coates]

Fair comment. They wanted to be in the EU. They decided to join the Euro. It's their economy. Let them take responsibilty.

Where do you get the "they" wanted this or that evidence from? All my Greek friends couldn't have given a stuff about joining. Still don't

[exiges]

Everyone talks about 'six million Jews', nobody mentions 16 million Germans exterminated after 1945. Well, they had it coming, didn't they? But hey, they got a bit of debt relief.

There is no moral high ground in war. Only Victor's Justice. Bomber Harris himself admitted that, if the result had gone the other way, he would have been tried as a war criminal.

I didn't know about this, just Googled it, very interesting, would make a compelling film

[PrivateerMk2]

That's a completely unjustified claim. Where, how and by whom were these people supposedly killed?

Internment camps/ wilful neglect /the Allies

You learned about history from the TV, didn't you?

Edited June 23, 2011 by PrivateerMk2

[interestrateripoff]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/markets/8592847/Greek-crisis-is-a-money-spinner-for-hedge-funds.html

Fund managers gathered in Monaco for the GAIM conference have said that depressed asset prices and rock-bottom debt instruments could be worth the risk.

Robert Marquardt, founder of Signet, a fund of hedge funds, told reporters that the Greek crisis was "certainly a great chance to make money".

He added: "With some Greek debt trading at 40 cents on the dollar, you can assume that recovery value over one or two years will be greater than that. You can hedge that by being short Spain or Portugal – somewhere that's not really in play."

I suppose when it's not your money and you pocket a fee if you win or lose you can take these risks. It's also certainly a very good chance to lose money. What do they say about assumptions again??

[tomandlu]

Internment camps/ wilful neglect /the Allies

Utter nonsense, afaict. By all means feel free to provide references. Extra points if they are not links to white supremacists' websites...

You learned about history from the TV, didn't you?

I'd love to know where you learnt yours from...

[interestrateripoff]

Utter nonsense, afaict. By all means feel free to provide references. Extra points if they are not links to white supremacists' websites...

I'd love to know where you learnt yours from...

http://www.historylearningsite.co.uk/german_pow.htm

The Germans had 91,000 men captured alive after the Battle of Stalingrad. Few of these men returned to Germany after the war ended. Made to carry out hard labour often in extreme weather conditions, many died as a result of lack of food and disease. Their accommodation was basic at best.

Very many more Germans soldiers became POW’s when the war ended in May 1945. They were expected to rebuild Russia. Gerhard Ohst was sent to Velikiye Luki. Here was Russia’s largest railway repair shop – but a ruin in 1945. 1000 German POW’s were sent to Velikiye Luki to rebuild it. What many expected to take 20 years was completed in just 3 years – but many died doing so, primarily from malnutrition and the diseases associated with it. The Soviet authorities had one requirement – that work that needed to be done was done. How many died doing this work was unimportant. Such an attitude fitted in with the attitude that had prevailed in Russia on both sides since the time of ‘Operation Barbarossa’ in June 1941.

The Russians divided the prisoners into three classes. Those who exceeded the work required of them – they were given extra rations; those who completed the work required of them got the basic ration of food; those who failed to complete the work required of them, got less than the basic ration. The rations for those who exceeded their work requirement were minimal – and the more hungry someone became, the less productive he was work-wise. A ‘normal’ day’s ration was a bowl of gruel and just over 1lb of bread.

However no figures.

Although the Russians had over 3m prisoners.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eastern_Front_%28World_War_II%29#Casualties

[tomandlu]

http://www.historylearningsite.co.uk/german_pow.htm

However no figures.

Although the Russians had over 3m prisoners.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eastern_Front_%28World_War_II%29#Casualties

Thanks, but it was the figure of 16 million I was flummoxed by. The actual estimate is between 500,000 and 2,000,000 (and that includes pretty much any COD).

[interestrateripoff]

http://uk.ibtimes.com/articles/168258/20110623/trichet-raises-the-alarm-on-debt-crisis.htm

The European Central Bank President, Jean-Claude Trichet, was not as optimistic and as grounded as he has always been yesterday when he raised the alarm level on the debt crisis to "red" assuring the market that the crisis is nowhere close to be resolved!

Trichet said late yesterday in Frankfurt after the meeting of the European Systemic Risk Board, as he chairs the ESRB, that risk signals for financial stability in the euro area are rising and flashing "red" he said "on a personal basis I would say yes, it is red".

He added saying that the biggest threat to financial stability is the "link between debt problems and banks".

Trichet said yesterday "the most serious threat to financial stability in the EU stems from the interplay between the vulnerabilities of public finances in certain EU member states and the banking system". He added saying that there are "potential contagion effects across the union and beyond."

Looks like they are fast running out of ideas to keep the EU utopia currency running.

[interestrateripoff]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/financialcrisis/8593963/EU-leaders-in-race-to-avert-Greek-debt-default-euro-crisis.html

Over a dinner tonight, the EU will begin negotiations on a second bailout for Greece, expected to be at least €120bn (£107bn) with €60bn from taxpayers, in a dash to make a deadline of a 11 July meeting of EU finance ministers.

David Cameron has drawn a red line and refused to become involved in a “Greece II” rescue package in a battle with the German Chancellor who insists that a British contribution will be necessary.

“We were not involved in the first Greek bailout, we are not members of the eurozone and we are not going to become members of the Euro zone as long as I'm standing here,” he said yesterday.

“I don't believe the European financial mechanism should be used for Greece and we have made very clear within Europe we don't think that's appropriate and I don't believe that should happen.”

Looks like they'll be having an interesting dinner tonight as they decide how best to screw over the European taxpayer in giving money to the bankers.

[interestrateripoff]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/comment/jeremy-warner/8592773/Britain-should-save-the-euro-and-then-cash-in.html

For many in Britain, the apparent death throes of the single currency allow a smug sense of “we told you so”. The present crisis was as predictable as it is familiar. In every particular, it provides validation for the view Britain adopted nearly 20 years ago when it was ignominiously forced out of the ERM – namely that it’s tough, if not impossible, to sustain a currency union with Germany.

...

Yet break-up is not the only option open to Europe. There is another, which is that the solvent North agrees to bail out the stricken South on a more or less permanent basis. Although the politicians dare not admit it in public, this is in fact what’s being progressively forced upon them.

...

A year ago, the idea of a second bail-out for Greece would have been regarded as completely unthinkable. But now, here we are with every prospect of the unthinkable happening. Policymakers have convinced themselves that the collateral damage inflicted by a break-up of the eurozone would be infinitely greater than the cost of coughing up. The transfer union has, in practice, all but arrived.

Not sure why he thinks it was unthinkable, in the first bailout nothing was done to tackle Greece's debt pile, therefore the problem wasn't tackled the only thing which was going to happen was going to be another bailout but this time even bigger as now they have even more debt.

The bailout generated zero growth for the Greeks, and growth is the only thing which was going to save the Greeks from default.

[leicestersq]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/financialcrisis/8593963/EU-leaders-in-race-to-avert-Greek-debt-default-euro-crisis.html

Looks like they'll be having an interesting dinner tonight as they decide how best to screw over the European taxpayer in giving money to the bankers.

Is that Cameron standing firm? No U turn?

I personally think that they are not going to kick the can this time, it is too much money, they wont be able to agree and it is all going to burn.

I wouldnt put any money on that opinion mind.

[Deckard]

Irish Finance Ministry To Sell "Ireland Is Not Greece" T-Shirts

Absolutely brilliant...

Gotta love the sympathy and solidarity between piggies in trouble, a true reflection of the Euro spirit

[Deckard]

Strikey strikey...

General strike called for June 28-29

A GSEE announcement said the central demands include rejection of the measures contained "in the mid-term programme and the memorandums 1 and 2" and "rejection of austerity, halting the climate of layoffs and rising unemployment, the imposition of respect and implementation of the collective labour agreements and halting the sell-off of public utilities and state organisations".

Adedy, in its own statement, accused the government and the troika of following a "destructive path" for the workers and society and called on civil servants to participate in the strike in order to obstruct the ratification of the medium-term programme and the new anti-popular measures.

[copydude]

That's a completely unjustified claim. Where, how and by whom were these people supposedly killed? What sources and evidence back this up?

I can imagine if you are not familiar with WW2 history, it comes as a surprise.

From Wikipedia

In the post-war period earlier German sources often cited the number of evacuated and expelled Germans at 16 million and the death toll at between 1.7[7] and 2.5 million,[8] today . . .Some present-day estimates place the numbers of German refugees at 14 million of which about half a million died during the evacuations and expulsions.[9][10]

Winston Churchill also used the number of 16 million as those left the wrong side of the Oder/Niesse line when the map of Europe was re-drawn at the Potsdam conference.

In addition you have the ethnic cleansing of Kaliningrad, when Konigsberg was ceded to Russia. 1 - 2 million.

And then you have the German POWs who never returned from Russia and were working until the 1950s . . . actually until they dropped.

The official Soviet figure was 2.8 million, but this does not tally with the numbers posted as missing or what the labour camps achieved. Actually, if you visit Russia, you will see German buildings from Moscow to Novosibirsk. Nizhni Town Hall, Novosibirsk Opera House, Moscow State University were all built by German POWs.

The whole Veliky Novgorod town centre is German built.

See wiki again on gulag labour and 'Stalin's Seven Sisters'.

Numbers are disputed as they always are. (Officially, only 53 people died as a result of Chernobyl.)

To call Germans displaced at the time 'refugees' is to misunderstand the mood of revenge at the end of the war. It isn't fashionable or comfortable to admit that Germans were slaughtered wholesale after 1945 but that was the reality.

To capture the mood, try reading up on your first million odd Germans left in Konigsberg

women and girls of all ages from children to old ladies gang-raped, then nailed to carts and doors, or hanged or deliberately crushed by tanks, old men nailed to doors or crucified, other children just killed or deliberately left to starve

From Fall of Hitler's Fortress City: The Battle for Konigsberg

[tomandlu]

Winston Churchill also used the number of 16 million as those left the wrong side of the Oder/Niesse line when the map of Europe was re-drawn at the Potsdam conference.

You were claiming 16 million killed before... now you're talking about displaced and including those 'displaced' from countries occupied by the Germans during the war.

No one's disputing that a significant number German civilians were killed (and a lot of Europeans and Russians being peed off with the Germans is hardly news), but comparing that to a much greater number of Jews and other undesirables killed in the camps is highly questionable.

Oh, and Konigsberg was not 'after the war'. Hmm, you inflate german casualties, deflate jewish casualties and use various tactics to try and fudge the issue. If you're not an anti-semitic little creep, you're doing a very good impression of one...

Edited June 23, 2011 by tomandlu

[seymour]

In which case they really do have to make sure that they don't have a big sell-off of state assets. After all, getting a country to hand over key assets for peanuts IS part of the IMF plan.

Like any auction (how else would they do it?), Greek state assets can simply fail to meet the reserve

Anyway, as already posted, the Greek people would not accept this.

[newbie]

Internment camps/ wilful neglect /the Allies

You learned about history from the TV, didn't you?

Where's the evidence?

To see the sort of details that I have in mind, see for example:- http://www.lwow.com.pl/lwow_profs.html ; http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Massacre_of_Lviv_professors

Details of who, when and how was murdered are known. The German units and their officers involved were known. It was all planned and systematic, State-sponsored in effect. No person ever faced trial for it.

[Pent Up]

Strikey strikey...

General strike called for June 28-29

They'll have trouble passing the new austerity masures then surely? And isn't the vote on the 28th?

Edited June 23, 2011 by Pent Up

[newbie]

I can imagine if you are not familiar with WW2 history, it comes as a surprise.

I'm all too familiar with WW2 history which is why your statements are a surprise. Your own quote puts the German losses in WW2 at "between 1.7[7] and 2.5 million,[8] " which is in accordance with the usual estimates. It's still just a fraction of what the Russians lost on any estimate.

If you send your army into a neighbouring country, kill people systematically and take over their land (all being part of a pre-conceived plan - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Generalplan_Ost) and then you lose your attempt at world domination and the avenging armies readjust your borders and don't discipline their revenge seeking soldiers, does that make you the victim and your neighbour the aggressor?

The motives were different. Russian soldiers weren't promised hectares of German land as part of their drive on Berlin, German soldiers were promised hectares in the East as part of their drive on Moscow. Russian atrocities were driven by revenge, German atrocities came first and were driven by ideology and greed.

[copydude]

You were claiming 16 million killed before... now you're talking about displaced and including those 'displaced' from countries occupied by the Germans during the war.

No one's disputing that a significant number German civilians were killed (and a lot of Europeans and Russians being peed off with the Germans is hardly news), but comparing that to a much greater number of Jews and other undesirables killed in the camps is highly questionable.

Oh, and Konigsberg was not 'after the war'. Hmm, you inflate german casualties, deflate jewish casualties and use various tactics to try and fudge the issue. If you're not an anti-semitic little creep, you're doing a very good impression of one...

If you read more carefully, you will see I'm sayin that 'displaced' is largely a euphemism for 'disappeared'. It was not popular to be German if you were the wrong side of the Oder Niesse line. Suicide was probably the best option.

And Konigsberg as Kaliningrad was after the war. The first Russian civilian settlers arrived in 1945. Ethnic cleansing continued for some time afterwards, by civilians. Germans were evicted from their homes as Russian civilians moved in. The Germans were allowed 20kg of possessions to take with them. They took their most prized possessions of course. How far down the street do you think they got?

You might find some insight in Yuri Buida's books, a Russian author whose mother was one of the first settlers.

deflate jewish casualties . . . anti-semitic little creep

Show me anywhere where I have deflated numbers of Jewish casualties of war. Again, if you read more carefully, you will see that my argument is that totally one-sided, rewritten views of history, and especially wars, serve no purpose.

And to be back on topic, why German war debt has no possible relevance to the Greek situation.

[newbie]

And to be back on topic, why German war debt has no possible relevance to the Greek situation.

I think the Greek argument in throwing up that issue is something along the lines of:- the German taxpayer would claim not be financially responsible for the reprehensible actions of the Nazis (even though democratically elected) as this would be collective punishment many years after the wrong, ergo the Greek taxpayer claims not to be financially responsible for the corrupt actions of Greek Ministers (even though democratically elected) as this will be a collective punishment that will go on for many years after the wrong.