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alexw

The Myth Of The Lazy Greeks

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http://uk.news.yahoo.com/southern-europeans-more-longer-germans-study-154119901.html

Southern Europeans work more and longer than Germans, a study said, debunking recent comments made by Chancellor Angela Merkel that workers in debt-mired Greece, Spain and Portual are lazy.

A statistics-based report published by French bank Natixis chief economist Patrick Artus said Germans worked less annually and during their lifetime than Southern Europeans, and did not work more intensely than their neighbours either.

The study, based on OECD and Eurostat figures, said a German's average annual work duration (1,390 hours) was substantially lower than for a Greek (2,119), an Italian (1,773) a Portuguese (1,719) and a Spaniard (1,654).

A French person works 1,554 hours per year, said the study which was published on Monday.

"Germany's productivity per head remains close to the average of southern European countries. Its hourly productivity rate is above average but not better than France or Greece," the study added.

Although the legal retirement age is older in Germany -- currently 65 years set to rise to 67 -- the Portuguese and Spanish work longer. Their real retirement ages are 62.6 and 62.3 respectively, against 62.2 for Germans.

The real retirement age for Greeks is 61.5 but that is expected to rise to 63.5 by 2015 following the government's austerity programme to raise the legal retirement age to 65 from 60.

Only the French (60 years) and the Italians (60.1) currently retire two years earlier on average than the Germans, the study also said.

Last month Merkel hinted that southern Europeans take too much holiday and retire too early, sparking outrage across the continent.

"In countries such as Greece, Spain and Portugal, people should not retire earlier than in Germany. Everyone should make similar efforts a little bit more. It's important," she said.

Artus, the author of the Natixis report wrote: "Angela Merkel does not show the real problems of the southern countries of the eurozone."

What a surprise....(not) so it was german mechantalism thats to blame after all.

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Always better to work smarter than to work harder.

There again, in a global economy there's always someone as smart as you who's able to work harder. So there's no easy way anymore.

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If they work so hard, why are they having trouble stumping up what they owe?

because they're a relatively poor and heavily agricultural economy?

their tax collection is apparently not very efficient too.

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If they work so hard, why are they having trouble stumping up what they owe?

Because the politicians got together with Goldman Sachs and cooked the books?

Edited by wonderpup

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But did they show up for their Government jobs and work those hours all those years or did they really moonlight as we have been led to believe?

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The report's conclusion isn't a total surprise. The "lazy" accusation seems to be a standard part of the game now.

They used the same game for UK workers all those years ago "to catch up with the the efficient Germany (and in those days the US as well) and the hard working super efficient German worker" and the UK ended up with all the temporary work, much reduced amount of permanent work, much less protection for workers, less security. You name it - and all the rest.

I dare say the typical German worker is everything they say but equally Germany apparently has tons of worker protection etc but it's industry still manages to buzz along very well compared to the UK despite all the changes to the UK's workers conditions. Likely some adjustment was needed in the UK but has it all helped the UK economy. Some would say no, the UK economy is evidently far more bankrupt and uncompetitive than ever before. Of course the UK bankers boardrooms etc and the UK politicians are all doing ok.

It looks like they're now going to try the same game on Greece and likely Ireland, Portugal and Spain etc. That doesn't mean that in a few years time all those countries won't still be far more bankrupt than ever before.

Hey in those days they even said give the interest rate job to the BoE as they'll control UK inflation like the German Bundesbank does for Germany and people even believed them :lol::lol:

Edited by billybong

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works out as an average of 26 hours per week for an average german. Which suggests alot of germans aren't working, retired or they look after the kids, this is average...

The germans I do know that work seem to work longer hours than the brits and the Spaniards I know... The French/Spaniards that come to the uk, say the brits work harder than back at home, and the germans say the brits are more relaxed than in germany.

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I've seen plenty of people work hard. Very few of them were doing anything productive or useful however. But they all felt superior to those that didn't work, and who in most cases achieved just as much.

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The report's conclusion isn't a total surprise. The "lazy" accusation seems to be a standard part of the game now.

They used the same game for UK workers all those years ago "to catch up with the the efficient Germany (and in those days the US as well) and the hard working super efficient German worker" and the UK ended up with all the temporary work, much reduced amount of permanent work, much less protection for workers, less security. You name it - and all the rest.

I dare say the typical German worker is everything they say but equally Germany apparently has tons of worker protection etc but it's industry still manages to buzz along very well compared to the UK despite all the changes to the UK's workers conditions. Likely some adjustment was needed in the UK but has it all helped the UK economy. Some would say no, the UK economy is evidently far more bankrupt and uncompetitive than ever before. Of course the UK bankers boardrooms etc and the UK politicians are all doing ok.

It looks like they're now going to try the same game on Greece and likely Ireland, Portugal and Spain etc. That doesn't mean that in a few years time all those countries won't still be far more bankrupt than ever before.

Hey in those days they even said give the interest rate job to the BoE as they'll control UK inflation like the German Bundesbank does for Germany and people even believed them :lol::lol:

+ 1

The myth of the hard working rest of the world vs lazy old us? ****** spread by the expoloitve class.

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If they work so hard, why are they having trouble stumping up what they owe?

Its all to do with german merchantilism.

When the euro formed all the nations entered at specific exchange rates. At the time germany entered the euro was overvalued relative to its economy and its companies were uncompetitive vs rest of europe. Germany preceeded to screw down on its workers with pay cuts and freezes all the while while productivity increased. But it did not stop at being competitive and continued to screw down becoming hypercompetitive in the process.

At the same time interest rates were being set to suit germany and not other nations, so greek wages increased as inflation became embedded in their economy increasing the disparity in competitiveness. Greek manufacturers and productive businesses went out of business as they could not compete with their german neighbours. Instead of greek goods their shops sold german goods -

GR2010060104145.gif

To keep the whole song and dance going gemany recycled its trade surpluses as loans to greece (so they could buy more german goods), explaining why the current german leaders are petrified of default. None of this has anything to do with "lazy greeks" and "hardworking germans". Indeed, the original posting shows this to be a myth. But the myth proves useful for hiding what really went on, and that is german elites manipulating germany's economy by shafting its workers to gain trade advantage. Greek and german workers work just as hard and just as long. But german workers certainly don't earn as much. Instead the income is siphoned off by the german elites and loaned to greece (and its other trade partners) enriching only these self-same elites in the process.

As for greece paying back its borrowings it must somehow earn enough euro's (i.e. have a trade surplus) to be able to do so. That requires it becoming competitive with germany. Even greek deflation won't do it if germany decides to shaft its workers some more. Indeed, the only way out for greece is if german companies pay its workers more, and stop shafting them for external trade advantage. Greece, good luck in getting germany to do that, you'll need it.

Edited by alexw

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I suspect its more to do with the PUBLIC SECTOR in Greece than it is on workers as a whole.

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B*lls to Greek's working long hours.

A hefty percentage have public sector jobs where they barely turn-up.

Then they have a 2nd cash in hand job.

Then they retire off in their mid 40s.

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Most areas of the economy it doesn't make much difference how long people work. For example if British car salesmen increased their hours by 40% would it change the number of cars sold.. No the national total would remain exactly the same.

If Greek doctors started working longer hours and more years before retirement.. would it make any difference? No, maybe a few days average life expectancy, if that.

If Greek teachers worked longer hours would education rise.. Nope, wouldn't make any difference. Kids will learn on their own if they are driven, or if not driven they won't learn much of anything either way.

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The report's conclusion isn't a total surprise. The "lazy" accusation seems to be a standard part of the game now.

They used the same game for UK workers all those years ago "to catch up with the the efficient Germany (and in those days the US as well) and the hard working super efficient German worker" and the UK ended up with all the temporary work, much reduced amount of permanent work, much less protection for workers, less security. You name it - and all the rest.

I dare say the typical German worker is everything they say but equally Germany apparently has tons of worker protection etc but it's industry still manages to buzz along very well compared to the UK despite all the changes to the UK's workers conditions. Likely some adjustment was needed in the UK but has it all helped the UK economy. Some would say no, the UK economy is evidently far more bankrupt and uncompetitive than ever before. Of course the UK bankers boardrooms etc and the UK politicians are all doing ok.

It looks like they're now going to try the same game on Greece and likely Ireland, Portugal and Spain etc. That doesn't mean that in a few years time all those countries won't still be far more bankrupt than ever before.

Hey in those days they even said give the interest rate job to the BoE as they'll control UK inflation like the German Bundesbank does for Germany and people even believed them :lol::lol:

+1

Classic divide and conquer, goes on all the time, the same tactic was recently used in this country with invalidity benefit claiments refusing examination for work, press said 70% refused, actual figure was found to actually be 30%, but it mobilises and forms opinion the way the powers that be want it to go so they can then act without the serfs causing a fuss.

In my last 2 jobs I've worked with foreign nationals from around 20 different countries, including some very motivated and hardworking Greeks and Italians, as well as some lazy Germans, the extent to which people work in other countries is probably the same as the ratios in the UK, some people work hard some don't, on comparing the size of Greek debt to how hard they work, well if you compare them to the UK we are probably far more indebted if you include all the PFI and public sector pension liabilities, does that make us lazier than the Greeks?

Edited by madpenguin

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Most areas of the economy it doesn't make much difference how long people work. For example if British car salesmen increased their hours by 40% would it change the number of cars sold.. No the national total would remain exactly the same.

If Greek doctors started working longer hours and more years before retirement.. would it make any difference? No, maybe a few days average life expectancy, if that.

If Greek teachers worked longer hours would education rise.. Nope, wouldn't make any difference. Kids will learn on their own if they are driven, or if not driven they won't learn much of anything either way.

it would mean less teachers and doctors.

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The local tent guy just quoted me for some awnings and this subject came up. He said I'm working 14 hours days now. How much more work am I supposed to do?

There are some public sector workers doing nicely according to some. The same ones who have time to hang out in the square.

However this is just the nazi propaganda machine on the roll. As noted it has been used for years by the big fat controllers. Geobels perfected it and his replacements have run with the ball with ever better technology and comms.

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The local tent guy just quoted me for some awnings and this subject came up. He said I'm working 14 hours days now. How much more work am I supposed to do?

There are some public sector workers doing nicely according to some. The same ones who have time to hang out in the square.

However this is just the nazi propaganda machine on the roll. As noted it has been used for years by the big fat controllers. Geobels perfected it and his replacements have run with the ball with ever better technology and comms.

is he WORKING 14 hours a day, or just opening the shop early and late, waiting for customers?

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Αρβιτ μαχτ θρει!

you want a phi rather than a theta at the front of the last word ;-)

they will default or "restructure" as they call it. That is almost inevitable - the question is when do portugal, spain, Ireland and Italy go down the same route?

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I think when all is said and done, the average Greek is going to be better off than the average Brit.

In Greece, they have strong family ties. For example, they don't tend to send off their old parents to live in a home. They live much more off the land. Even the poorest families eat better than most British families. When push comes to shove, they can survive with very little.

I know its a really popular sentiment on these threads to blame the "lazy public worker". But I think if you did a bit of digging, you would find the biggest tax evaders in Greece tended to be the wealthy. Of course, when things got really bad, I suppose the majority of these people probably just left. Bit like Britain, when the s@@t hits the fan, the wealthy will just leave.

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I think when all is said and done, the average Greek is going to be better off than the average Brit.

In Greece, they have strong family ties. For example, they don't tend to send off their old parents to live in a home. They live much more off the land. Even the poorest families eat better than most British families. When push comes to shove, they can survive with very little.

I know its a really popular sentiment on these threads to blame the "lazy public worker". But I think if you did a bit of digging, you would find the biggest tax evaders in Greece tended to be the wealthy. Of course, when things got really bad, I suppose the majority of these people probably just left. Bit like Britain, when the s@@t hits the fan, the wealthy will just leave.

not only that, they had the benefit of The Olympic Games to boost them forever....like we have next year.

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is he WORKING 14 hours a day, or just opening the shop early and late, waiting for customers?

Seems to be pretty damn busy to me. I'm having to wait three weeks for a small 12M X5M roll-up piece of canvass.

No need to shout BTW I can read you okay from here.

When you say "just opening the shop early and late, waiting for customers" I wonder if you have that as your view of the Greek economy? A nation of lazy shopkeepers.

They seem to divide into private sector self employed working long hours, and lazy public sector/corrupted types. I was told that everyone in Greece knows who has broken and robbed the country b*****ers/politician-wise, but nothing can be done. If one of the criminal politicians is outed the whole edifice will come down 'cos they are all bad.

I was also told that it's okay at the moment because no one is actually hungry. Once the state pension is cut from 600Euro's pm by 200/300 it will be different....... For the pensioners anyway.

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I think when all is said and done, the average Greek is going to be better off than the average Brit.

In Greece, they have strong family ties. For example, they don't tend to send off their old parents to live in a home. They live much more off the land. Even the poorest families eat better than most British families. When push comes to shove, they can survive with very little.

I know its a really popular sentiment on these threads to blame the "lazy public worker". But I think if you did a bit of digging, you would find the biggest tax evaders in Greece tended to be the wealthy. Of course, when things got really bad, I suppose the majority of these people probably just left. Bit like Britain, when the s@@t hits the fan, the wealthy will just leave.

Correct. Which is why I'll be moving my family permanently there just as soon as I can get out of the sandpit.

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  • 312 Brexit, House prices and Summer 2020

    1. 1. Including the effects Brexit, where do you think average UK house prices will be relative to now in June 2020?


      • down 5% +
      • down 2.5%
      • Even
      • up 2.5%
      • up 5%



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