Financial Times: " The Great Uk Debt Reveal "

[hankdd]

The harm was done long ago unfortunately, you can't turn the clock back.

What you have to look at is the economic cost of trying to preserve the illusion that little bit longer: productive jobs and capacity lost, capital spent turning houses into flats and back. Properties are our Easter Islands heads, a national obsession that will lead us to ruin if we don't stop. I bet they had full employment until right before the collapse. We are not America, Americans are turning into savages praying on each other. We are not like that. Yet.

Is it the aesthethic impact that concerns you most?

Easter Islands heads- brilliant analogy.

[_w_]

Don't want to be a pedant, but what a superbly apt misspelling!

The Yanks have always predated on each other, and any who wandered into their domain.

Ouch!

[council dweller]

Yes, you may be able to buy a house which was once 200K for 85K. But would you touch it, if you weren't sure how much more it would fall??

It's just a dutch auction innit. When the the house I'm living in falls to an affordable level (cash) I'll just hit the buy button. No point in worrying about whether or not you could have got it cheaper when you've just bought life's major expense (by far!)

[madpenguin]

Easter Islands heads- brilliant analogy.

I agree, not seen that analogy before, but very apt

[mel in w9]

It is better for the economy to have millions of people being forced to move house than have this current total stagnation. People can't take jobs because they can't move house, if they are forced out they might as well move for work. Plus of course the work created in having to move people about, clearing houses etc. And the amount of stuff that'll end up on Ebay is going to be epic. I expect that's the party General Congreve is waiting for.

If you have no money, how do you move? And where do you move to? And where are these jobs going to come from?

I don't think you understand. People who are foreclosed on, are forcibly removed from their homes. They are not given another home to move in to. Which is why in America people live in their cars and in tents (Don't believe me, look it up). Of course, some people are fortunate and can perhaps go and live with family elsewhere, but this assumes you have family who have any space for you.

It's not some great down scaling of millions. It's more like making millions homeless. Unless, you think in the UK all these people are going go into council housing. But as there seems to be a great shortage of that here, I can't see that being an option for the majority.

[mel in w9]

That is what I don't understand about the majority people who post here. You cheer on your own demise. It's odd to say the least.

I have always thought it odd that the UK followed the US much more so then it followed the rest of Europe. But wanting to follow the US down the path of rampant homelessness and extreme poverty, is bizarre.

At least in Greece and Spain people seem to be fighting back against the "powers that be". Here in the UK many seem to be welcoming the vultures with open arms. I can only hope this mindset really is in the minority.

[leicestersq]

Yup gold is far too soft. Rocks are much better for opening bean stashes.

So passe. I open my tins with bitcoins.

[leicestersq]

That is what I don't understand about the majority people who post here. You cheer on your own demise. It's odd to say the least.

I have always thought it odd that the UK followed the US much more so then it followed the rest of Europe. But wanting to follow the US down the path of rampant homelessness and extreme poverty, is bizarre.

At least in Greece and Spain people seem to be fighting back against the "powers that be". Here in the UK many seem to be welcoming the vultures with open arms. I can only hope this mindset really is in the minority.

They seem to me to be fighting themselves. A bit like those fuel protesters that tried to reduce the price of fuel by constraining supply.

[leicestersq]

I agree with you Tricksy.

I initially joined this site because I was interested in house prices in this country. I think they are far too high (especially in places like London, where I live). Initially I agreed with many here that the nation needed a BIG house price crash. But over the last few months, I am having a bit of change of opinion.

I have watched what has happened in the USA with the massive house price falls. 28% of American homeowners have been foreclosed on. 2/3 of homeowners in the US are in negative equity. Unemployment is sky high. People are NOT spending money. The economy has been devastated. Much of this is directly linked to the massive falls in housing.

A house is (for most of us) the biggest purchase we will ever make. Yes, millions of people were caught up in easy credit, and the buying frenzy of the early 2000's. But even if most people knew house prices were not going to keep going up and up. I doubt many people thought property was going to spiral downward with almost no end in site.

The American economy is not better than that of Ireland, or Spain or Greece. It is just that it is the USA and so somewhat untouchable by the likes of the IMF.

Now Britain is a VERY different story. It is NOT America. I have no doubt that when "the party is over". Those loan sharks at the IMF are going to come sniffing around here.

So while so many are praying for the day that it all comes tumbling down (and personally I think it is inevitable for the UK). I don't believe many people seem to understand what that really means.

Yes, you may be able to buy a house which was once 200K for 85K. But would you touch it, if you weren't sure how much more it would fall?? Not to mention, has anyone even begun to think about where all those who's homes were foreclosed on would live. In America they live in their cars, and in tents. As Britain is a mere fraction of the size; tent cities all over the place would be a real blight on the land.

There are more people than houses in the UK. If those that want housing but don't have it are to get it, then those that do have it are going to have to lose it. Which means some will end up in tents.

If net immigration continues upwards, I bet we will see people living in tents soon anyway.

[16bit]

If you have no money, how do you move? And where do you move to? And where are these jobs going to come from?

I don't think you understand. People who are foreclosed on, are forcibly removed from their homes. They are not given another home to move in to. Which is why in America people live in their cars and in tents (Don't believe me, look it up). Of course, some people are fortunate and can perhaps go and live with family elsewhere, but this assumes you have family who have any space for you.

It's not some great down scaling of millions. It's more like making millions homeless. Unless, you think in the UK all these people are going go into council housing. But as there seems to be a great shortage of that here, I can't see that being an option for the majority.

If people can live in cars and tents in the US, they can do it here also. Forgot about the UK only being a small island - that is irrelevant. There are huge fields for people to live on all over the UK and if you pick the right spot you will have access to lakes which will provide water and fish. Go and have a look at Google Earth and you will see how much land there is.

But then living in a tent is not really necessary when you have lots of white elephant office blocks and shops all over the place sitting doing nothing. They're unlikely to be used by businesses so what better use for these than to live in. At least it will provide shelter from the elements.

Believe me, things are going to change drastically and a lot of people are going to get one hell of a shock.

[16bit]

That is what I don't understand about the majority people who post here. You cheer on your own demise. It's odd to say the least.

I have always thought it odd that the UK followed the US much more so then it followed the rest of Europe. But wanting to follow the US down the path of rampant homelessness and extreme poverty, is bizarre.

At least in Greece and Spain people seem to be fighting back against the "powers that be". Here in the UK many seem to be welcoming the vultures with open arms. I can only hope this mindset really is in the minority.

I'm not cheering on my own demise, nor can I see anyone else doing so. Those who will suffer are those who have taken the p*ss by lying about their finances to get a mortgage they can not service. Those who believe they are untouchable. Plenty of people like this around. It's all to do with greed and when your time runs out, well, that's the end.

[Injin]

If people can live in cars and tents in the US, they can do it here also. Forgot about the UK only being a small island - that is irrelevant. There are huge fields for people to live on all over the UK and if you pick the right spot you will have access to lakes which will provide water and fish. Go and have a look at Google Earth and you will see how much land there is.

But then living in a tent is not really necessary when you have lots of white elephant office blocks and shops all over the place sitting doing nothing. They're unlikely to be used by businesses so what better use for these than to live in. At least it will provide shelter from the elements.

Believe me, things are going to change drastically and a lot of people are going to get one hell of a shock.

Err no.

If you try that you'll get your head stoved in by the boys in blue and anything you made burned to the ground. (Unless you are in a travelling/gypsy community that looks out for each other and can make it hard work for them you are SOL on this idea.)

[16bit]

Err no.

If you try that you'll get your head stoved in by the boys in blue and anything you made burned to the ground. (Unless you are in a travelling/gypsy community that looks out for each other and can make it hard work for them you are SOL on this idea.)

I don't agree.

Things are changing. Fast.

We are talking millions of people here. Not just a couple of tearaways.

Edited June 5, 2011 by 16bit

[Injin]

I don't agree.

Things are changing. Fast.

You don't have to agree.

Go and do the experiment. Find yourself a bit of "spare" land and stick a structure on it.

Good luck!

[mel in w9]

I'm not cheering on my own demise, nor can I see anyone else doing so. Those who will suffer are those who have taken the p*ss by lying about their finances to get a mortgage they can not service. Those who believe they are untouchable. Plenty of people like this around. It's all to do with greed and when your time runs out, well, that's the end.

What I am trying to say (although apparently not very effectively), is that when the BIG collapse comes, it is going to impact everyone. If you think about it, any person who has a mortgage is buying a house they cannot afford. Only people who are in a position to pay cash for the full asking price are buying something they can afford.

When your economy spirals downward, it tends to take everyone with it. Except those with enough money to leave. I mean if you were excessively wealthy would you want to live in a country full of people living in tents and in their cars (or even in empty office space).

[16bit]

You don't have to agree.

Go and do the experiment. Find yourself a bit of "spare" land and stick a structure on it.

Good luck!

Edited my post above.

[council dweller]

That is what I don't understand about the majority people who post here. You cheer on your own demise. It's odd to say the least.

We have to deal with the situation as we find it not as we'd like it to be. The UK is going into a deep hole. The majority CAN'T SEE IT or will do nothing to stop it. We as individuals have to make the best of a bad job.

If you think we're like the survivers of some POW camp then I'd have to agree.

[Injin]

Edited my post above.

Ah yes.

But that's why they can't raise interest rates - in such a scenario of millions being made homeless simultaneously, they won't wander off and set up new places under trees and in fields, they'll simply walk back into their old homes.

Which means the whole system and idea of paying a mortgage will end more or less overnight - which is why they cannot possibly go in that direction.

[athom]

If you have no money, how do you move? And where do you move to? And where are these jobs going to come from?

I don't think you understand. People who are foreclosed on, are forcibly removed from their homes. They are not given another home to move in to. Which is why in America people live in their cars and in tents (Don't believe me, look it up). Of course, some people are fortunate and can perhaps go and live with family elsewhere, but this assumes you have family who have any space for you.

It's not some great down scaling of millions. It's more like making millions homeless. Unless, you think in the UK all these people are going go into council housing. But as there seems to be a great shortage of that here, I can't see that being an option for the majority.

I prefer to go on actual history rather than conjecture based on other countries. In the early 90s HPC with attendant repos did we see millions of people homeless and their houses fall empty? No.

[16bit]

Ah yes.

But that's why they can't raise interest rates - in such a scenario of millions being made homeless simultaneously, they won't wander off and set up new places under trees and in fields, they'll simply walk back into their old homes.

Which means the whole system and idea of paying a mortgage will end more or less overnight - which is why they cannot possibly go in that direction.

They can always kill people instead however.

[Injin]

They can always kill people instead however.

Not and have a modern functioning economy.

If any of the things you mentioned would possibly worked they would have already done them.

[athom]

If you have no money, how do you move? And where do you move to? And where are these jobs going to come from?

I don't think you understand. People who are foreclosed on, are forcibly removed from their homes.

Your imagination is failing you. And this is not the USA. Put yourself in the position of the repossessed, what would you do? Sit under a bridge and cry? You'd move in with family, friends, neighbours, colleagues, anybody until you've got the state housing you. Jobs would arise from this movement of people. Simple movement and change creates work, it is work and some of it will be done by other people for a wage

[16bit]

Ah yes.

But that's why they can't raise interest rates - in such a scenario of millions being made homeless simultaneously, they won't wander off and set up new places under trees and in fields, they'll simply walk back into their old homes.

Which means the whole system and idea of paying a mortgage will end more or less overnight - which is why they cannot possibly go in that direction.

Also, they won't be able to walk back into their old homes as they will be repossessed. By people who have bought the gaff at the correct price and who have the cash.

[athom]

That is what I don't understand about the majority people who post here. You cheer on your own demise. It's odd to say the least.

I have always thought it odd that the UK followed the US much more so then it followed the rest of Europe. But wanting to follow the US down the path of rampant homelessness and extreme poverty, is bizarre.

At least in Greece and Spain people seem to be fighting back against the "powers that be". Here in the UK many seem to be welcoming the vultures with open arms. I can only hope this mindset really is in the minority.

fighting back against the "powers that be"? What kind of socialist nut job are you? We're talking about people who borrowed too much having their houses repossessed. They will likely never pay the shortfall back to the banks and we'll all end up paying for them. I do mind that but even more i would mind if we all get to pay to keep them in the lifestyle they had no right to become accustomed to.

[Injin]

Also, they won't be able to walk back into their old homes as they will be repossessed. By people who have bought the gaff at the correct price and who have the cash.

Where from?

All the banks will have gone pop.