Expressing Frustration...

[manchester50]

This post is really nothing more than a good old whinge.

We've been watching prices (both sale and rental) in quite a large area south of Manchester, bordered by Lymm in the West, Goostrey in the South, Poynton East and Altrincham North. Looking for a character family home (4-5 beds) with a decent garden, ideally in a fairly green/semi-rural/village setting. Looking up to 700k, aiming to spend <600k.

My frustration lies with the prices in this area relative to other areas of the country I'm familiar with. I'm from the NW and love Manchester as a city, but have also lived around Leeds/York, Surrey and Hampshire. I look at attractive areas I'm familiar with in Surrey and many of the prices are similar - despite hanging off London earnings. I look at very attractive villages/small towns - in truth more pleasant places than the areas I'd like to consider in Cheshire - around York/Harrogate commutable to Leeds and they are cheaper/similar.

Does anyone else feel that the area south of Manchester is out of step with earnings even more so than other areas of the country?

This is an example of what I mean:

http://www.rightmove.co.uk/property-for-sale/property-32351573.html

http://www.rightmove.co.uk/property-for-sale/property-14761077.html

Maybe there are far more people with 500k-1m budgets south of Manchester than I'd expect from the wages I see...

Feel free to disagree - as I say, this is no more than a moan

[Mouse]

I think that the areas that you are interested in are places for a lot of commuting high earners working in places like Liverpool, Chester and Manchester.

We have to start viewing Manchester as a very strong economic power, possibly second to London, bringing with it a lot of industry and associated high earners with a lot of competitive buying power. Their preferences are driving the prices, I should think, not the local residents....hope that makes sense?

[Si1]

some parts of the country, for whatever random reason, have not caught on to national falling prices, i doubt permanently.

You sound like someone who understands the value of what you are trying to spend, i appreciate your candour. There are other threads on this forum from people who want to spend 100s of thousands like it is confetti, who don't appear to have earned their wonga themselves, maybe they are your answer - if it is south manchester like you say, and easily accessible to Manchester city, then chavs with over-inflated budgets and underwhelming common sense may prefer to live there to be within bragging distance of their poorer (or less indebted friends) in the city.???

[Si1]

I think that the areas that you are interested in are places for a lot of commuting high earners working in places like Liverpool, Chester and Manchester.

We have to start viewing Manchester as a very strong economic power, possibly second to London, bringing with it a lot of industry and associated high earners with a lot of competitive buying power. Their preferences are driving the prices, I should think, not the local residents....hope that makes sense?

oh dear

[R K]

oh dear

I'm guessing you're a Yorkie.

We have to start viewing Manchester as a very strong economic power, possibly second to London, bringing with it a lot of industry and associated high earners with a lot of competitive buying power. Their preferences are driving the prices, I should think, not the local residents....hope that makes sense?

Have to start?

Edited June 3, 2011 by Red Karma

[Si1]

I'm guessing you're a Yorkie.

Have to start?

Am a lancastrian by birth and really wouldn't mind moving back to Manc one day, but tho Manchester is a vibrant and brilliant place,it isn't about to compete with London for money, jobs or sustained house prices, this is a very old claim made by several cities in the past. Even if it IS the best regional city outside the SE (it may well be) that is not the same as saying it is on an earnign level with the SE.

And no i don't support that funny red team who got what - 19 - passes completed against Barca the other week?

[Nomadd]

There are other threads on this forum from people who want to spend 100s of thousands like it is confetti, who don't appear to have earned their wonga themselves, maybe they are your answer - if it is south manchester like you say, and easily accessible to Manchester city, then chavs with over-inflated budgets and underwhelming common sense may prefer to live there to be within bragging distance of their poorer (or less indebted friends) in the city.???

The Banks have long since let go of the Chavs. Large deposit requirements have seen them off completely. Which leaves the Bank of Mum & Dad types, I guess. But even that older generation are feeling the squeeze as inflation bites on their savings/pensions.

I guess that just leaves those who did get on the property ladder some time ago and made a good return. In my mind, those are the main type of people the OP is up against, rather than Chavs or B.Of. M&D.

Nomadd

[Nomadd]

...but tho Manchester is a vibrant and brilliant place,it isn't about to compete with London for money, jobs or sustained house prices, this is a very old claim made by several cities in the past. Even if it IS the best regional city outside the SE (it may well be) that is not the same as saying it is on an earnings level with the SE.

Correct.

[R K]

Am a lancastrian by birth and really wouldn't mind moving back to Manc one day, but tho Manchester is a vibrant and brilliant place,it isn't about to compete with London for money, jobs or sustained house prices, this is a very old claim made by several cities in the past. Even if it IS the best regional city outside the SE (it may well be) that is not the same as saying it is on an earnign level with the SE.

And no i don't support that funny red team who got what - 19 - passes completed against Barca the other week?

That wasn't the OP's point (from what I can tell).

Avg. prices (and earnings) are below London and the SE.

And?

[Si1]

That wasn't the OP's point (from what I can tell).

Avg. prices (and earnings) are below London and the SE.

And?

it was close enough to being Mouse's point, who was justifying house prices equivalent to SE commuter belt south of Manchester, the comparison is very direct

[Nomadd]

That wasn't the OP's point (from what I can tell).

Avg. prices (and earnings) are below London and the SE.

And?

And? Well...

...Good houses in good NW locations (which was the OP's point, from what I can tell) do require London and SE earnings. (After all, he's talking £600k-£700k, which isn't beer money...)

Mind you, he may have landed one of those 2,000 or so £150k+/yr jobs with the BBC in SQ? Still, that's the subject for another thread...

[manchester50]

Agree with most of the comments - except Manchester house prices being justified by high-earners/economic powerhouse.

I believe most of the prices in the areas I'm considering are stubborn sellers, bank of m&d and/or profit made on previous houses.

Earnings above a certain threshold are not vaguely close to the SE which was my point really - I have a job which requires me to work in London/M4 corridor much of the time. I'd like a local Manchester/Chesire job but this would require a huge pay cut. I could earn 100k full-time in London, 40-50k for an equivalent role in Manchester, or between the two figures for being based in the North and travelling South.

Once you get above ~40k the wage differential I see between the NW and SE is huge (e.g. snr mgmt roles, accountancy, law, IT) - so why can I see equivalent house prices in places like Bramhall (pleasant enough but not going to blow anyone away) as attractive Surrey towns on a train line into London.

I can understand pockets of high prices, e.g. Prestbury, Alderley and Hale - there will always be enough with cash to push up prices in a few select spots. It's the fact that so much of the area is competing with SE prices that I don't get.

[Nomadd]

Agree with most of the comments - except Manchester house prices being justified by high-earners/economic powerhouse.

I believe most of the prices in the areas I'm considering are stubborn sellers, bank of m&d and/or profit made on previous houses.

Earnings above a certain threshold are not vaguely close to the SE which was my point really - I have a job which requires me to work in London/M4 corridor much of the time. I'd like a local Manchester/Chesire job but this would require a huge pay cut. I could earn 100k full-time in London, 40-50k for an equivalent role in Manchester, or between the two figures for being based in the North and travelling South.

Once you get above ~40k the wage differential I see between the NW and SE is huge (e.g. snr mgmt roles, accountancy, law, IT) - so why can I see equivalent house prices in places like Bramhall (pleasant enough but not going to blow anyone away) as attractive Surrey towns on a train line into London.

I can understand pockets of high prices, e.g. Prestbury, Alderley and Hale - there will always be enough with cash to push up prices in a few select spots. It's the fact that so much of the area is competing with SE prices that I don't get.

Agree completely. The guy who sits behind me in the office has lived in Surrey all his life. Last week we were flicking through properties on Rightmove in Surrey, in areas he knows and rates well. TBH, there was no difference in price between Surrey and South Manchester. I was utterly gobsmacked, as I'd always thought of Surrey being high-priced Stockbroker country. It takes him 35 minutes to get to Docklands or City. Wages are 3 times higher - at least - compared to what you can earn in Manchester. Can't for the life of me understand how Manchester house prices ever got to these levels..?

Still, I know of at least half a dozen sellers in South Manchester who've had properties on the market for a long time and still refuse to cut the price, even though their EAs have been recommending such cuts for ages. Viewings have dwindled to nil for all of them, and house prices have fallen much further in the interim. Still, if you've got a silly figure in your head over what your property might (but unlikely) have been worth in the boom days, I guess it's difficult to understand the new reality.

NW housing is a market best to avoid, IMHO, until these people are forced to wake up. Many of those I know are really struggling financially at the moment, but they cling on to this idea that some White Knight is going to come along and buy their property for top whack and solve all their problems. All I know is this: that White Knight won't be me.

[19 year mortgage 8itch]

Agree with most of the comments - except Manchester house prices being justified by high-earners/economic powerhouse.

I believe most of the prices in the areas I'm considering are stubborn sellers, bank of m&d and/or profit made on previous houses.

Earnings above a certain threshold are not vaguely close to the SE which was my point really - I have a job which requires me to work in London/M4 corridor much of the time. I'd like a local Manchester/Chesire job but this would require a huge pay cut. I could earn 100k full-time in London, 40-50k for an equivalent role in Manchester, or between the two figures for being based in the North and travelling South.

Once you get above ~40k the wage differential I see between the NW and SE is huge (e.g. snr mgmt roles, accountancy, law, IT) - so why can I see equivalent house prices in places like Bramhall (pleasant enough but not going to blow anyone away) as attractive Surrey towns on a train line into London.

I can understand pockets of high prices, e.g. Prestbury, Alderley and Hale - there will always be enough with cash to push up prices in a few select spots. It's the fact that so much of the area is competing with SE prices that I don't get.

I still think you are doing the NW a dis-service here. In my circles engineers with less than 10yrs experience picking up £40K+ is the norm and we complain about being poorly recompensed for our sacrifices. 40-50K may be decent but I see 70K+ for main earner and 100K+ as good household incomes from other businesses (IT/Law/Accountancy/Medicine) for the way people seem to live.

[Nomadd]

I still think you are doing the NW a dis-service here. In my circles engineers with less than 10yrs experience picking up £40K+ is the norm and we complain about being poorly recompensed for our sacrifices. 40-50K may be decent but I see 70K+ for main earner and 100K+ as good household incomes from other businesses (IT/Law/Accountancy/Medicine) for the way people seem to live.

Jobserve: 1 week search, all Engineering and Legal roles. Within Manchester or 10 miles out side:

Highest number of jobs: 5. Pay 25-30k

And above that:

Between 40-50k: 2 jobs.

Between 50-75k: 0 jobs

Between 75-100k: 0 jobs

Between 100k+: 0 jobs

Now, your area may pay better as it's niche. In which case stick with it, as it's paid way above average.

[19 year mortgage 8itch]

Jobserve: 1 week search, all Engineering and Legal roles. Within Manchester or 10 miles out side:

Highest number of jobs: 5. Pay 25-30k

And above that:

Between 40-50k: 2 jobs.

Between 50-75k: 0 jobs

Between 75-100k: 0 jobs

Between 100k+: 0 jobs

Now, your area may pay better as it's niche. In which case stick with it, as it's paid way above average.

There are a lot of big name, well paying (edit) engineering (edit) companies around 30mins drive from the areas discussed.

Edited June 6, 2011 by daiking

[efdemin]

It's always been this way in this area as far as I can tell. I grew up is SE Cheshire and I kept thinking the same as the OP - prices just seem to be too high for the jobs that are available.

The only thing I can think of is it's because of the 'Cheshire Life' effect - everyone aspires to a nice house so they put everything they have into it. I reckon if you could look into the finances of the families in £600-£800k houses in Cheshire and Surrey/SE you'd probably find that the Cheshire ones are all fur coat and no knickers, so to speak.

And maybe this is just specific to Manchester, but I don't think there are any city boroughs that are equivalent to Chelsea or whatever. So pretty much all high-earners get pushed out - more often than not to the South Manchester area. Ok, if you're young there are fancy apartments in converted mills and the like but 4/5 bed family homes - not so much.

Edited June 6, 2011 by efdemin

[manchester50]

The only thing I can think of is it's because of the 'Cheshire Life' effect - everyone aspires to a nice house so they put everything they have into it. I reckon if you could look into the finances of the families in £600-£800k houses in Cheshire and Surrey/SE you'd probably find that the Cheshire ones are all fur coat and no knickers, so to speak.

And maybe this is just specific to Manchester, but I don't think there are any city boroughs that are equivalent to Chelsea or whatever. So pretty much all high-earners get pushed out - more often than not to the South Manchester area. Ok, if you're young there are fancy apartments in converted mills and the like but 4/5 bed family homes - not so much.

I think your first point may well be valid and possibly caused (or at least influenced) by your second.

Re. Daiking's points, there may well be sectors I'm unaware of where the NW pays extremely well in relation to the SE, but that isn't close to my experience in IT or friends in Law/Accountancy - who have all moved SE. I'm not saying there are no high-paying jobs, just that in my sector the proportion of jobs paying a high salary is much lower for a given set of skills/level of experience.

Also 70k+ for main earner puts you in the top 3% (I think it's 3 from memory, but I could be slightly out) of earners nationwide. Given that is weighted towards the SE it suggests the people paying silly money in S Manchester/NE Cheshire are not generally 100k household incomes.

I'm not slating the NW. I grew up here and have spend most of my life here. But I've also lived in Yorkshire, London, Surrey and others, and feel the wage-house -price-quality are area relationship is out of step here.

[Nomadd]

The only thing I can think of is it's because of the 'Cheshire Life' effect - everyone aspires to a nice house so they put everything they have into it. I reckon if you could look into the finances of the families in £600-£800k houses in Cheshire and Surrey/SE you'd probably find that the Cheshire ones are all fur coat and no knickers, so to speak.

I think you'll also find that many of the folks who live in these nice NW locations probably spend much of their lives working elsewhere. I have to admit, a fair few I know of who can afford the Hale (etc.) prices are those who commute a lot. Work in London, then back up to Manchester at the weekend. If you can hack that for a few years - not sure I could, hence why I'm based in London at present - then you'd have no problem meeting the high prices. I also know a few who find it quicker to actually work in mainland Europe; Manchester airport is only a short run away from many decent South Manchester locations, so maybe that's a factor here? Who knows.

Still, my gut feel, and a knowledge of historic pricing in the area over 25 years, leads me to believe that current prices are simply unsustainable. And the cracks are already beginning to show, with actual sold prices being some way off from the silly aspirational asking prices. If I was the OP, looking to buy now at £600k - I'd be sticking in "silly" offers left, right and centre on anything that took may fancy up to £900k. I mean, what's the worst that can happen other than a simple 'no thanks'.

[manchester50]

I think you'll also find that many of the folks who live in these nice NW locations probably spend much of their lives working elsewhere. I have to admit, a fair few I know of who can afford the Hale (etc.) prices are those who commute a lot. Work in London, then back up to Manchester at the weekend. If you can hack that for a few years - not sure I could, hence why I'm based in London at present - then you'd have no problem meeting the high prices. I also know a few who find it quicker to actually work in mainland Europe; Manchester airport is only a short run away from many decent South Manchester locations, so maybe that's a factor here? Who knows.

Still, my gut feel, and a knowledge of historic pricing in the area over 25 years, leads me to believe that current prices are simply unsustainable. And the cracks are already beginning to show, with actual sold prices being some way off from the silly aspirational asking prices. If I was the OP, looking to buy now at £600k - I'd be sticking in "silly" offers left, right and centre on anything that took may fancy up to £900k. I mean, what's the worst that can happen other than a simple 'no thanks'.

There was a house in BolingtonKerridge which looked reasonablu substantial but was priced at ~740 last year. They dropped to about 700. I phoned the agent and asked if they were open to offers as I felt it was overpriced. She responded, "well I can tell you they won't accept 600". That told me all I needed to know! They then reduced it a week or so to 600 and have accepted an offer against that - 500? 575? So, to reiterate your point, someone looking to spend 750k may have spotted it, when it reality it went closer to someone with a 500k budget.

[MrCheese]

I live in the NW and commute regularly to London. I think the "average earnings" numbers don't have to reflect the reality of pricing in a lot of NW towns just as they don't in London. In both areas the average earnings are fairly low but there are lots of people making serious money. I think this explains the high prices in the good areas of the NW - there are a lot of people running businesses, professionals, joint earners etc that are able to compete for the best areas and good houses.

We can agree about prices being out of whack in the country as a whole, but in the NW you do have 3 decent sized cities in a relatively small area. Each of these cities has a measurable number of people with serious money and when it comes to spending that money and having investments that will weather the long term a quality house in a nice town does make sense.