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brownbear

Brighton Rocks

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I have just returned from the Labour Party conference in Brighton (I was there for work and pleasure). I didn't snort cocaine and was not thrown out for heckling, but had a number of interesting conversations with MPs and journos. I even briefly met with Gordon, although I didn't get the opportunity to press him on the details of his property owning democracy. (My impression is that there is a growing desire to help Gordon move into No 10, and sooner rather than later. Blair will not go at a time of his own choosing).

Most of the MPs I spoke to were pretty sanguine about a fall in house prices. They did not think there would be a calamitous crash but thought it likely that prices would continue to decline. If they fell by, say, 20% this would not be politically damaging in their opinions (or mine). Nevertheless, no-one was as bullish as the VIs in estate agents or the property media. It was also interesting that property prices do not fill up any MPs postbags and is not an issue at the top of their agenda. Maybe there is a case for a lobbying campaign to highlight the benefits of lower house prices rather than simply talking about affordable housing schemes, or shared ownership? Most people on this site would like a price fall. Few want economic meltdown. Do they?

The mood at Conference was certainly not triumphalist, but rather reflective. The opposition is truly awful both from the Lib Dems and Tories. They are considered to be essentially irrelevant. Re-engaging with the electorate is the key challenge and most people i spoke to recognised that.

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The opposition is truly awful both from the Lib Dems and Tories.

I agree

What the hell has happened to our democracy?

35% vote for the winning party and there's no viable opposition. Democracy is dying :(

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What the hell has happened to our democracy?

The UK has never been a true democracy. The first-past-the-post system inherently favours the party in power, hence the 17 years under the Tories and now almost 10 years under Labour. PR has it's own problems, but surely it is better than this crock-of-sh1t non-democratic oligopolistic sham.

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........ Re-engaging with the electorate is the key challenge........

Tell them not to bother trying as most of us never "engaged" with the Nu Labour slime-bags in the first place.

Just 22% of the total electorate voted for this lot (34% of those who voted) yet they ended up with a 66 seat majority. What sort of democracy is that ?

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Most of the MPs I spoke to were pretty sanguine about a fall in house prices. They did not think there would be a calamitous crash but thought it likely that prices would continue to decline.

In 1939, with the German armies massing on the Polish border, most MPs still did not believe there would be a war.

PR has it's own problems, but surely it is better than this crock-of-sh1t non-democratic oligopolistic sham.

Actually, it is showing signs of working in Wales with the National Assembly - New Liebour had a majority of one but then they p*ss*d off two Labour MPs by trying to replace them with Blair Babes - one in the Assembly election, the second in the national election but the second is both an MP and AM, they stood as independents and the people voted for the man and not the party.

Hence why Blair is reported to have said "f**k*ng Welsh!"

The result being that PR does indeed now look like a viable form of democracy indeed.

Just 22% of the total electorate voted for this lot (34% of those who voted) yet they ended up with a 66 seat majority. What sort of democracy is that ?

I don't recall the pro Tory anti Labour voters complaining about the exact same situation when 18 years of Tory Government f**ked most of the country when most of the country had not voted them in - no Tory MPs in Wales or Scotland at one point!

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The UK has never been a true democracy. The first-past-the-post system inherently favours the party in power, hence the 17 years under the Tories and now almost 10 years under Labour. PR has it's own problems, but surely it is better than this crock-of-sh1t non-democratic oligopolistic sham.

The UK's democracy is true and robust and has been for probably longer than any other country. Any system has to balance the interests of all the different groups in society and ours does do this. At one extreme a vote on every single decision would be theoretically possible but utterly impractical and would give shockingly populist policies. At the other we could dispense with elections altogether and have autoracy. Our system of representative democracy is firmly in the middle and is designed to give governing parties a chance to rule for long periods to implement long-term policies with an occasional rain-check against the electorate.

The UK system may have faults but perhaps it's the least worst possible (arrived at over centuries of trial and error) and whereever I have travelled in the world it is marvelled at, even in the US or France. Politicians here are not corrupt or hypocritical by world standards and the vicious, diverse press ensures that this continues to be the case.

What you propose would be unstable particularly given the vigourous debate we have here on most issues in comparison to elsewhere.

What we have may be crap. But anything else would be crapper.

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22% the other 78% voted against or abstained. What’s wrong with that?

Apart from a government supported by a minority of the British people getting into power you mean? THAT IS NOT DEMOCRACY.

The UK's democracy is true and robust and has been for probably longer than any other country.

Hello Tony. Cherie kicked you out of the house again has she.:rolleyes:

is designed to give governing parties a chance to rule for long periods to implement long-term policies

Where are these long-term policies of which you speak? Where are the far-sighted decisions on energy, education, healthcare, foreign policy, the economy? All they seem to have been able to do so far is procrastinate, set multitudes of meaningless targets, get us involved in foreign wars and fund an army of public sector non-jobs from runaway public borrowing.

whereever I have travelled in the world it is marvelled at, even in the US or France.

LOL, our political system is the object of derision in France, not envy. I don't know what strange kind of French people you have been speaking to.

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I'm with Boredtrainbuilder. It makes me laugh when people say our democracy is under threat because turnout is low. Frankly I couldn't care less if some w*****s can't be arsed to get out of bed. Is it because they're angry? No. It's because they're apathetic. And why are they apathetic? It's because they can get a job if they want one, and buy Chinese hi tech products dirt cheap for about the price of a pint.

We have high fuel taxes in this country (although people conveniently forget that compared to most of Europe our taxes are low). Despite this, when some right wing backwoodsmen try and organise refinery blockades what happens? Nothing. No one turned out because no one thinks things are bad enough to bother.

When unemployment goes up and people fear for their jobs and homes, then you'll see people take an interest in politics again. Personally, the fewer people who vote the better as far as I'm concerned. It makes my cross in the ballot box more significant.

As for PR, don't make me laugh. What PR does is give the smaller parties disproportionately more muscle. People think "Oh that's great. That way the Greens / LibDems / your name here will have more influence". But what they forget is that new parties will spring up in a PR system who might not be as harmless. What if the Tories went looking to the BNP to form a coalition government, or Labour to some loony right Islamist party? It'll never happen, you say. Look at Israel, I say, and see how the Judeo-Fascists have made common cause with Likud. We're much better off where we are.

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LOL, our political system is the object of derision in France, not envy. I don't know what strange kind of French people you have been speaking to.

Absolutely not so, most Fench people I know (and I worked in Paris for a couple of years and still work for a French company) are deeply, deeply cynical about their own system, especially the presidency, and like the UK's form of national governance (to the extent that they understand it) even if they don't like our economic system (again, to the extent that they understand it, those that do generally support it over their own sclerotic system as well).

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I would rather politicians didnt "engage" with me. As far as I am concerned, the further the thieving bastards stay from me the better.

I once wrote a letter to my local councilor with constructive suggestions for improving a local amenity. His reply was a diatribe of political cr@p. The average politician is a deeply mediocre individual who devotes their lives to expropriating the hard earned assets of more successful people.

My ambition is to declare personal independence, stash money offshore and in tax efficient savings vehicles. If another penny goes on tax or national insurance (just another tax) I will continue my career in a lower tax country.

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Apart from a government supported by a minority of the British people getting into power you mean? THAT IS NOT DEMOCRACY.

Many, probably most British governments have commanded only minority support. I don't think your history is very good.

The current government most accurately reflects the balanced average of British opinion on the street, clapham omnibus or pub, whether you like it or not. The opposition parties do not have policies which attract support.

The low turnout and apathy that people like you continually moan about are a reflection of the fact the system has delivered a government that reflects society's settled view on the issues of the day. In a word, democracy.

Where are these long-term policies of which you speak? Where are the far-sighted decisions on energy, education, healthcare, foreign policy, the economy? All they seem to have been able to do so far is procrastinate, set multitudes of meaningless targets, get us involved in foreign wars and fund an army of public sector non-jobs from runaway public borrowing.

I'm not defending the government, merely the system which mandated it.

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The opposition is truly awful both from the Lib Dems and Tories. They are considered to be essentially irrelevant.

spoken like a typical auhoritarian labourite.

you won 35 % of the vote. if it wasnt for a corrupt electoral system which you promised to reform in your 1997 manifesto (the first of many broken promises) you would be sharing powerr just now which would be a fantastic thing for the country.

this country needs weaker , more accountable government not stronger less accountable government which is what labour are giving us.

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spoken like a typical auhoritarian labourite.

you won 35 % of the vote. if it wasnt for a corrupt electoral system which you promised to reform in your 1997 manifesto (the first of many broken promises) you would be sharing powerr just now which would be a fantastic thing for the country.

this country needs weaker , more accountable government not stronger less accountable government which is what labour are giving us.

A weaker government would mean even more pandering to interest groups, truly the very last thing we need. Better that governments be accountable to the people rather than cronies and coalition bedfellows.

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spoken like a typical auhoritarian labourite.

you won 35 % of the vote. if it wasnt for a corrupt electoral system which you promised to reform in your 1997 manifesto (the first of many broken promises) you would be sharing powerr just now which would be a fantastic thing for the country.

this country needs weaker , more accountable government not stronger less accountable government which is what labour are giving us.

It would have prevented the Conservative party from doing their damage in the 1980s and 90s too.

I do not think it is arrogant to state the bleedin obvious and point out that the two opposition parties are not very good. I personally have no problem with some form of PR> let's hope its introduced...

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The UK's democracy is true and robust

nlab29a.jpg

Walter Wolfgang, 82, physically ejected from the Labour party conference for expressing views contrary to the party line. When he tried to re-enter the secure zone, he was stopped by a police officer citing the Terrorism Act.

Heckler, 82, who dared called Straw a liar is held under terrorist law, Telegraph, 29/09/05

New Labours assault on civil liberties:

Detention without trial

Shoot to kill

Pre-emptive war

Banning vocal protesting

RIPPA

Judge Dread Police Force

ID cards

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New Labours assault on civil liberties:

Detention without trial

Shoot to kill

Pre-emptive war

Banning vocal protesting

RIPPA

Judge Dread Police Force

ID cards

there are many more.

compulsory medical treatment of people suspected of potentially being an anti-social threat

suspension of Habeas Corpus

3 months internment

prosecution for glorifying terrorism

they really are becoming more Stalinist every day.

WW was ejected as if it was the Central Committee of the Communist Party he had heckled.

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If Labour think the Tories are irrelevant, this is the sort of arrogance that will see them lose out.

This election the Tories ran a sh1te campaign. Michael Howard trotted around the country shaking hands with grannies and sounding like a nincompoop at just about every TV opportunity, and they had ONE policy only -- immigration.

Despite this seemingly poor show, they managed to take ~50 seats from Labour.

Hence the conspiracy theory that the Tories didn't want this term. :P

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there are many more.

compulsory medical treatment of people suspected of potentially being an anti-social threat

suspension of Habeas Corpus

3 months internment

prosecution for glorifying terrorism

they really are becoming more Stalinist every day.

WW was ejected as if it was the Central Committee of the Communist Party he had heckled.

Quite right.

I realise few here have the "luxury" of watching breaking news, but if you did manage to during those off the cuff, unscripted moments, such as incidents in Iraq and the execution of Jean Charles De Meneses, you'd soon realise that the news you see is sanitised and manipulated. Spin doctors and PR guys horse trade with the media . Essentially this is more stalinist history re-writing. As Orwell wrote in 1984, war is peace, ignorance is strength.

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Walter Wolfgang, 82, physically ejected from the Labour party conference for expressing views contrary to the party line. When he tried to re-enter the secure zone, he was stopped by a police officer citing the Terrorism Act.

I found the most amusing usage of the terrorism act was against peace protestors at the Europe’s biggest arms trade fair held in London.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/3097150.stm

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Quite right.

I realise few here have the "luxury" of watching breaking news, but if you did manage to during those off the cuff, unscripted moments, such as incidents in Iraq and the execution of Jean Charles De Meneses, you'd soon realise that the news you see is sanitised and manipulated. Spin doctors and PR guys horse trade with the media . Essentially this is more stalinist history re-writing. As Orwell wrote in 1984, war is peace, ignorance is strength.

I just saw the editor of the new statesman - Kampfner - on bbc24 say that WW was ejected in an Orwellian fashion.

More and more people are realising that Labour view 1984 not as a political satire but as an acceptable way to implement policy.

INGSOC right enough.

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Frankly I couldn't care less if some w*****s can't be arsed to get out of bed. Is it because they're angry? No. It's because they're apathetic.

This is what we are told by the politicians! "We don't vote because we're apathetic" - or - "because we're so satisfied with the status quo" is simply not true.

There is a difference between apathy and willful non-participation.

Numerous studies have shown that people who don't vote are not apathetic, in fact they often have strong political views. They don't vote because they feel excluded from the electoral process and unrepresented by the political parties. Unless people believe they can change something by voting why would they vote?

There are some serious gaps in our polical landscape . Who do you vote for if:

You disagree with the "War on Terror"?

You want economic reform?

You want electoral reform?

You want energy policy reform?

You are against globalisation?

(These aren't necessarily my views btw, just examples) These issues are not being represented by any of the main stream parties.

Why bother voting?

(I do vote btw but I can understand why people don't)

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This is what we are told by the politicians! "We don't vote because we're apathetic" - or - "because we're so satisfied with the status quo" is simply not true.

I voted lib dem only to be told by those sneering smug stalinists in the Orwellian party that i was wasting my vote,.

really ? so if i dont vote for Labour I am not contributing to the democratic process ? how very interesting.

[ inapropriate text removed by moderator ]

There are some serious gaps in our polical landscape . Who do you vote for if:

You disagree with the "War on Terror"?

You want economic reform?

You want electoral reform?

You want energy policy reform?

You are against globalisation?

(These aren't necessarily my views btw, just examples) These issues are not being represented by any of the main stream parties.

yes they are, almost all are supported by the lib dems.

they are defo anti-war, pro-renewable and pro-electoral reform.,

never heard of them ?

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Scary stuff.

Articles 114, 115, 117, 118, 123, 124 and 153 of the Constitution are invalid until further notice. Restrictions on the freedom of the individual, the right to free speech, including freedom of the press and the right of assembly and the right to form groups, infringements on the secrecy of post, telegraph and telephone communications, house searches, confiscation and limitation in property ownership over and above the previously legally specified limitations are now permissible.

Hmmm, sounds familiar.

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  • 301 Brexit, House prices and Summer 2020

    1. 1. Including the effects Brexit, where do you think average UK house prices will be relative to now in June 2020?


      • down 5% +
      • down 2.5%
      • Even
      • up 2.5%
      • up 5%



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