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LuckyOne

An Observation, A Thesis .....

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Observation : There seems to be a trend towards extremism in many liberal democracies.

Thesis : Extremism will flourish when enough of the population realises that the ruling elite place their own interests ahead of the wishes of the general population, especially during times of economic difficulty.

Questions :

- Does this thesis hold water?

- Is British society heading towards a tipping point?

- Will the extremism come from the left or the right?

Edit : Spelling

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Observation : There seems to be a trend towards extremism in many liberal democracies.

Thesis : Extremism will flourish when enough of the population realises that the ruling elite place their own interests ahead of the wishes of the general population, especially during times of economic difficulty.

Questions :

- Does this thesis hold water?

- Is British society heading towards a tipping point?

- Will the extremism come from the left or the right?

Edit : Spelling

Interesting thesis. I believe the premise that the ruling elite do put self interest first.

But a lot of people will probably think, as I do, that extremists are no better in this regard, and probably worse. So extremism does not offer a solution.

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Observation : There seems to be a trend towards extremism in many liberal democracies.

Thesis : Extremism will flourish when enough of the population realises that the ruling elite place their own interests ahead of the wishes of the general population, especially during times of economic difficulty.

Questions :

- Does this thesis hold water?

- Is British society heading towards a tipping point?

- Will the extremism come from the left or the right?

Edit : Spelling

Are you getting us to do your A-Level homework??

Anyway re: Will the extremism come from the left or the right?

It ALWAYS comes from the left, and then get relabelled as 'extreme right-wing' after the event, because the 'left' dominates the media and education sector.

I cannot prise this book enough on mostly the same topic as you are talking about in your post: http://www.amazon.co.uk/Liberal-Fascism-History-Mussolini-Politics/dp/0141039507/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1306576156&sr=8-1-spell

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Interesting thesis. I believe the premise that the ruling elite do put self interest first.

But a lot of people will probably think, as I do, that extremists are no better in this regard, and probably worse. So extremism does not offer a solution.

Extremism is something that I fear rather than welcome.

The risk that our society falls apart in a very uncontrolled way increases the longer than there is a disconnect between the political class (of all tribes) and the population.

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I don't see much evidence of extremism in the UK. No more so than in past times. As the previous poster says extremists don't tend to change anything because they represent an extreme position of the prevailing cultural base, and as such extremists are almost always regressive culturally speaking regardless of their 'mission'.

It seems to me that actual change derives from changes in widely shared technologies, mass migration, climate and very little else.

The "reforming" zeal of this or that extremist movement is too easily dissipated and grounded into the vast deep of the mainstream monoculture to make any long term difference. A revolution or change in this or that country will soon mean revert unless a sufficient number of its trading partners and neighbours all go at about the same time.

The most interesting contest right now seems to be the attempt by "western democracy", backed by some 40 Bn of western funds, to dissolve islamic influence in the Arab Spring states. I'm sure there are many opinions on this by my view is that the former is going to triumph. Sure there will be lots of incidents along the way but it seems to me that the arab youth of these states are more inclined to choose the goodies of secular western liberalism over islam. The fact that western liberalism could be credibly claimed to lead to a bad place eventually, doesn't alter the fact that it still offers, in the short term, a material improvement over their current situation that these young men and women know that an Islamic dictatorship is not going to deliver.

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Are you getting us to do your A-Level homework??

Anyway re: Will the extremism come from the left or the right?

It ALWAYS comes from the left, and then get relabelled as 'extreme right-wing' after the event, because the 'left' dominates the media and education sector.

I cannot prise this book enough on mostly the same topic as you are talking about in your post: http://www.amazon.co.uk/Liberal-Fascism-History-Mussolini-Politics/dp/0141039507/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1306576156&sr=8-1-spell

I have been travelling quite a bit lately and meeting quite a few people.

I do get the sense that there is a hardening of attitudes and people are becoming less tolerant.

Some of this has been evident on this site which at least partially prompted my post.

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I don't see much evidence of extremism in the UK. No more so than in past times. As the previous poster says extremists don't tend to change anything because they represent an extreme position of the prevailing cultural base, and as such extremists are almost always regressive culturally speaking regardless of their 'mission'.

It seems to me that actual change derives from changes in widely shared technologies, mass migration, climate and very little else.

The "reforming" zeal of this or that extremist movement is too easily dissipated and grounded into the vast deep of the mainstream monoculture to make any long term difference. A revolution or change in this or that country will soon mean revert unless a sufficient number of its trading partners and neighbours all go at about the same time.

The most interesting contest right now seems to be the attempt by "western democracy", backed by some 40 Bn of western funds, to dissolve islamic influence in the Arab Spring states. I'm sure there are many opinions on this by my view is that the former is going to triumph. Sure there will be lots of incidents along the way but it seems to me that the arab youth of these states are more inclined to choose the goodies of secular western liberalism over islam. The fact that western liberalism could be credibly claimed to lead to a bad place eventually, doesn't alter the fact that it still offers, in the short term, a material improvement over their current situation that these young men and women know that an Islamic dictatorship is not going to deliver.

I do wonder whether conditions are ripening across Europe and possibly the United States for "charismatic" fascist leaders like the world suffered from in the 1930s.

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Observation : There seems to be a trend towards extremism in many liberal democracies.

Thesis : Extremism will flourish when enough of the population realises that the ruling elite place their own interests ahead of the wishes of the general population, especially during times of economic difficulty.

Questions :

- Does this thesis hold water?

- Is British society heading towards a tipping point?

- Will the extremism come from the left or the right?

Edit : Spelling

In Britain, no. I don't see this. It needed for a proper destruction of the Labour party, who can otherwise act as a release valve. Since they seem to have escaped blame for what they did, and are once again seen as a viable opposition, any sense of outrage will simply go towards providing the next Labour government.

However, the US are only one charismatic presidential candidate away from proper Adolf-Hitler right-wing fascism. It is astonishing that their response to a crisis created by neo-liberalism, is a nationwide protest movement campaigning for more neo-liberalism. Also, the 'Christian' right is capable of anything in the name of Jesus.

Obama didn't win because he was left wing (which he barely is) he won because he was charismatic and because Sarah Palin is so clearly an idiot.

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When people get sick of the corruption, they will lose hope themselves and society will become yet more corrupt. No social cohesion. Simply selfishness and a society riven with what it can get away with - on the belief that everyone else is up to the same game.

Finally, a small group of people will become utterly sick of this and follow an 'honest' leader. The honest leader will eschew the material things of this world and will appeal to higher ideals. More and more will be intrigued by this growing band of followers and will seek out what it is they find of appeal and many become believers and followers themselves. Finally, to remove the corrupt, mass protest will be required and the will of the people will be heard.

That 'honest' leader can come from anywhere but the chances are very great they will be 'extreme' in their views and not a part of the present system.

So - yes I do believe what you say is right, but things will get a whole lot worse before what you say comes to pass. The struggle for money, to pay one's debts and living costs has had the effect of leaving many people's ideals back at college. Corruption will get much worse first to the point where, like Greece, the governments really struggle to persuade people to pay their taxes.

I think that you see the world as many of us wish it was.

I don't know if the "honest leader" will ever get the chance to emerge ahead of much less benign and benevolent people who will step into the power vacuum resulting from a societal collapse.

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I do wonder whether conditions are ripening across Europe and possibly the United States for "charismatic" fascist leaders like the world suffered from in the 1930s.

I think that we don't need to worry overmuch about this kind of thing in the facebook age. The power of anonymous interaction is a new power and very influential I think, since it is a power of communication wielded by the little people.

A new hitler, no matter how many people he convinces, is still going to have to accept a vast torrent of online abuse, fun-poking, serious debate etc, from anonynous detractors. Go take a look at Republican Senator McHenry's facebook page after he engaged in an 'extremist' attack on Elizabeth Warren, if you haven't already. THis is completely different from the 1930s, and it makes IMO a sudden collective change of direction to some extremist vector - like nazism - extremely unlikely.

The three things that I think are going to force changes is the increasing energy scarcity, the ageing of the population, and the breakneck speed of technological change, but that is all in all a transformation I see happening in baby steps over 40 years.

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When I say 'honest', I mean perceived 'integrity'. I would include a Htler, a Ghandhi, a Mandela and a religious nut all within that group. I would say that part is a common attribute.

Lucifer? He's due to return soon apparently.

We're told that when he does he will be very charismatic, will offer very reasonable solutions and seem to have great integrity. Then when we're not looking he'll chip us all.

Something like that.

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Are you getting us to do your A-Level homework??

Anyway re: Will the extremism come from the left or the right?

It ALWAYS comes from the left, and then get relabelled as 'extreme right-wing' after the event, because the 'left' dominates the media and education sector.

I cannot prise this book enough on mostly the same topic as you are talking about in your post: http://www.amazon.co...56&sr=8-1-spell

If you ignore religious extremism, racial extremism, nationalism, the American revolution, any extremism in antiquity, the KKK and every right-wing extremist movement, government and revolution in history, then yes you are right, extremism is only a left-wing phenomena.

Ironically, the argument that all extremism is left-wing extremism, is itself right-wing extremism.

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Lucifer? He's due to return soon apparently.

We're told that when he does he will be very charismatic, will offer very reasonable solutions and seem to have great integrity. Then when we're not looking he'll chip us all.

Something like that.

Never trust an honest man offering reasonable solutions, he's the Devil.

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Extremism is something that I fear rather than welcome.

The risk that our society falls apart in a very uncontrolled way increases the longer than there is a disconnect between the political class (of all tribes) and the population.

You know what, when Mosley and his blackshirts marched Nazi style through British streets in the 1930s, people standing on the pavements laughed at them.

It is a terrible thing to live in fear. Let it go.

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However, the US are only one charismatic presidential candidate away from proper Adolf-Hitler right-wing fascism. It is astonishing that their response to a crisis created by neo-liberalism, is a nationwide protest movement campaigning for more neo-liberalism. Also, the 'Christian' right is capable of anything in the name of Jesus.

+1

I see many parallels with Germany in the 30s and the USA today.

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I'm not sure I agree with the premise. Most of the 'extremist' leaders who are seeing an increase in their popularity across Europe are not particularly extreme. They only appear that way because mainstream politics on both sides has become so managerial.

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I think that we don't need to worry overmuch about this kind of thing in the facebook age. The power of anonymous interaction is a new power and very influential I think, since it is a power of communication wielded by the little people.

If Mark Zuckerberg has his way, anonymity will be the last word you'd use to describe the modern era.

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A new hitler, no matter how many people he convinces, is still going to have to accept a vast torrent of online abuse, fun-poking, serious debate etc, from anonynous detractors. Go take a look at Republican Senator McHenry's facebook page after he engaged in an 'extremist' attack on Elizabeth Warren, if you haven't already. THis is completely different from the 1930s, and it makes IMO a sudden collective change of direction to some extremist vector - like nazism - extremely unlikely.

Ah, the old 'new technology' changes everything argument. It doesn't, there is nothing new under the sun, we are still monkeys dreaming monkey dreams. We do not communicate more these days, we communicate less. Each man drives to his workplace alone, comes home and sits in front of the box alone stuffing junk food into his mouth. He barely knows who lives next door and thus does not realise that his neighbour is much like himself. Instead he laps up the 'threats all around' argument, that the world is full of nutters and only we can keep you safe. People used to live on top of each and spend their evenings down the pub. They had far better communication than exists today and they were more responsible as a result.

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If Mark Zuckerberg has his way, anonymity will be the last word you'd use to describe the modern era.

There is shades of grey with anonymity isn't there? Even if I use my real ID to make a comment on a german website on german politics, I'm still basically anonymous, beyond the reach of german law and no-one knows who I really am even if they go look at my facebook page. For sure someone who really wants to can find out, but in aggregate, no-one really cares.

And fully anonymous discourse is perfectly possible.

Revolutionaries used to nail inflammatory pamphlets to trees and hand them out near bridges and be persecuted for doing so. Everyone is handing out their own inflammatory pamphlets these days, which is precisely why any given opinion pamphlet will have little overall effect, which leaves matters to drift according to whatever the cultural mean is, plus the guidance of external events and forces.

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Ah, the old 'new technology' changes everything argument. It doesn't, there is nothing new under the sun, we are still monkeys dreaming monkey dreams. We do not communicate more these days, we communicate less. Each man drives to his workplace alone, comes home and sits in front of the box alone stuffing junk food into his mouth. He barely knows who lives next door and thus does not realise that his neighbour is much like himself. Instead he laps up the 'threats all around' argument, that the world is full of nutters and only we can keep you safe. People used to live on top of each and spend their evenings down the pub. They had far better communication than exists today and they were more responsible as a result.

Ah, the old nothing changes argument! However your last two sentences claim that something has changed...?

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Observation : There seems to be a trend towards extremism in many liberal democracies.

Thesis : Extremism will flourish when enough of the population realises that the ruling elite place their own interests ahead of the wishes of the general population, especially during times of economic difficulty.

Questions :

- Does this thesis hold water?

- Is British society heading towards a tipping point?

- Will the extremism come from the left or the right?

Edit : Spelling

I think you give people too much credit.

What causes people to revolt is a negative change in their essential lifestyles. Once the change becomes too negative the footsoldiers are mobilised. Their leaders may have higher ideals, but the man on the street is mostly interested in maintaining his lifestyle.

People aren't revolting at the moment because the elite have boats or private jets. But they would revolt for example if food becomes so expensive that they cannot afford what they see as basic necessities. Unaffordability of simple luxuries makes people grumble and increasingly complain, but will probably not spark a change.

Once people see that they are stuggling to afford lifes basic necessities, then they have little to lose by participating in movements to create change. History shows that these movements need a "blame focus". A simple target for the masses to hate and to help galvanize and channel their aggression.

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Observation : There seems to be a trend towards extremism in many liberal democracies.

Thesis : Extremism will flourish when enough of the population realises that the ruling elite place their own interests ahead of the wishes of the general population, especially during times of economic difficulty.

Questions :

- Does this thesis hold water?

- Is British society heading towards a tipping point?

- Will the extremism come from the left or the right?

Edit : Spelling

[edit - dammit, hit "post" early]

Observation: what is extremism? There are elements of the western consensus I'd describe as extreme. For example, Human Rights should be a Good Thing, but extremist interpretations that give it a bad name sometimes have the force of law. Or society's refusal to let people die in dignity.

Thesis: When an establishment gets too far out of line with the wishes of its people, dissident movements including some (rightly or wrongly) called extreme will flourish. Often extremist movements arise out of perfectly sensible ideas that just haven't been adequately thought through: c.f. socialism, feminism, libertarianism, tea-party, all valid reactions to issues of their times, but all having their own serious problems.

British society? We do need 'generational' leadership (as provided in living memory by Attlee and Thatcher) to clear up the issues of our time. Not an easy mandate: they'd face more resistance than even Thatcher did. And I don't see where a real leader is going to come from: if we don't get a Thatcher, maybe tensions will indeed rise to the point where something altogether nastier arises.

Left or right? You need to tell us what you mean by those, 'cos there's no consensus that would apply to anything remotely 'extreme'.

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In Britain, no. I don't see this. It needed for a proper destruction of the Labour party, who can otherwise act as a release valve. Since they seem to have escaped blame for what they did, and are once again seen as a viable opposition, any sense of outrage will simply go towards providing the next Labour government.

However, the US are only one charismatic presidential candidate away from proper Adolf-Hitler right-wing fascism. It is astonishing that their response to a crisis created by neo-liberalism, is a nationwide protest movement campaigning for more neo-liberalism. Also, the 'Christian' right is capable of anything in the name of Jesus.

Obama didn't win because he was left wing (which he barely is) he won because he was charismatic and because Sarah Palin is so clearly an idiot.

I thought fascists were lefties. Big state, anti-individual. Your post is full of prejudice.

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Observation : There seems to be a trend towards extremism in many liberal democracies.

Thesis : Extremism will flourish when enough of the population realises that the ruling elite place their own interests ahead of the wishes of the general population, especially during times of economic difficulty.

Questions :

- Does this thesis hold water?

- Is British society heading towards a tipping point?

- Will the extremism come from the left or the right?

Edit : Spelling

I think that what is in charge becomes more extreme over time and then there is a backlash.

But the extremism will come first from the prevailing political order. It is when the consequences of believning in that order can no longer be ignored that the agitation for change arrives.

To take a house price example - people are quite happy to believe their house price only goes up - it's when they are out of work, the economy has goen up the swanny and taxes are rising to pay bankster bonuses that they twig something is up. "Bear" in mind that pretty nearly everyone on HPC is way, way ahead of the curve. Everyone else finds out the hard way.

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Extreme: either of two abstract things that are as different from each other as possible.

The current political nodus operandi consists of "building consensus" and taking the " middle ground". If an extreme party (BNP, an Islamic party) started to gain popular support the main (ideology free) parties would steal their policies. In effect we now have 2 parties of professional politicians whose sole focus is election as opposed to propounding a particular ideology. In the absence of something to be different from, it's difficult to be extreme.

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  • 312 Brexit, House prices and Summer 2020

    1. 1. Including the effects Brexit, where do you think average UK house prices will be relative to now in June 2020?


      • down 5% +
      • down 2.5%
      • Even
      • up 2.5%
      • up 5%



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