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Coininvestdirect & Courier To Uk

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Hi all.I've been following the forum for over a month..Thanks a million for the forum as i have learnt more about PM investing than any book would have thought me..

Was wondering if any of you have used the Courier collection facility that CID offers (Via Mat/UPS/Fedex..).If so, could you please provide some insight into the process and some indicative charges.

I think it is a great facility if the costs work out fine.. From going through the various posts here i understand that this also means we end up paying only 7% VAT as opposed to the eye watering VAT we pay here for Silver (any links??).

I believe the Courier facility is particularly very useful if you dont want to take up the risk of carrying it around from the point you recieve it (the VIA Mat storage) till it reaches your home.

Thanks in advance for your help..

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It's weird, we have been discussing it on a thread or two here. Cid will deliver using any of the above couriers, a good service too, but at UK vat.

Commissioning your own courier, even the same one as they use, theoretically gets.you around the vat, but with added risk, and presumably the need to insure the items yourself.

However someone has mentioned here that this doesn't work on a large scale basis as it crosses a finite threshold, easily done for, say, UPS.

So I don't know.what the answer is, would appreciate a better informed post.

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Yes. I agree with your first para as i have used it myself paying 20% VAT.

The bit i was enquiring relates to commisioning your own courier to collect it from CID storage and deliver to you .

As an example, assuming we use Via Mat or UPS to do this for a monster box of Maples (500 Oz). My understanding of the additional costs incurred are:

1. Collection cost charged by CID (£30 in this case)

2. Courier cost (around 17.5 Kgs in this case)??

3. Insurance (i guess the courier companies themselves would be able to provide as a value add service)??

There should not be any additional VAT payable at the port of entry into UK as German VAT (7%) has already been paid.

Dont know how much 1+2+3 would work out to. Hence the post to find out if it is worth the hassle..

Could someone who has done the above please be kind enough to provide some rough figures for the above??

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Surely unless you just totally lie about the contents of your package you're still liable for the 20% VAT ?

A few months back I bought online some unsual silver rounds as gifts from the USA and even though it was just a few hundred dollars worth I still got shafted for the VAT.

I was hoping as it was such a small amount it might slip under the radar.... :)

I think HMRC are becoming more vigilant grabbing import duties and VAT.

A few years ago I would buy guitars from the USA as they were sooo much cheaper than here (especially when the exchange rate was 2.1 to 1) and get the seller to mark on the customs forms that the guitar was being "returned to owner following repairs".

This worked a treat until about 2 years ago and then I started getting asked for proof that i'd posted the guitar out in the first place :(

So I wouldn't risk it.

If you want to avoid the VAT, buy gold !

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Surely unless you just totally lie about the contents of your package you're still liable for the 20% VAT ?

A few months back I bought online some unsual silver rounds as gifts from the USA and even though it was just a few hundred dollars worth I still got shafted for the VAT.

I was hoping as it was such a small amount it might slip under the radar.... :)

I think HMRC are becoming more vigilant grabbing import duties and VAT.

A few years ago I would buy guitars from the USA as they were sooo much cheaper than here (especially when the exchange rate was 2.1 to 1) and get the seller to mark on the customs forms that the guitar was being "returned to owner following repairs".

This worked a treat until about 2 years ago and then I started getting asked for proof that i'd posted the guitar out in the first place :(

So I wouldn't risk it.

If you want to avoid the VAT, buy gold !

Thnaks Spot..That might have been due to the fact that in both instances, the goods were shipped from outside the EU. But within the EU i think the VAT clauses are different.. Could some one confirm??

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Surely unless you just totally lie about the contents of your package you're still liable for the 20% VAT ?

A few months back I bought online some unsual silver rounds as gifts from the USA and even though it was just a few hundred dollars worth I still got shafted for the VAT.

I was hoping as it was such a small amount it might slip under the radar.... :)

I think HMRC are becoming more vigilant grabbing import duties and VAT.

A few years ago I would buy guitars from the USA as they were sooo much cheaper than here (especially when the exchange rate was 2.1 to 1) and get the seller to mark on the customs forms that the guitar was being "returned to owner following repairs".

This worked a treat until about 2 years ago and then I started getting asked for proof that i'd posted the guitar out in the first place :(

So I wouldn't risk it.

If you want to avoid the VAT, buy gold !

No. USA is outside the EU customs zone, so VAT is payable. You don't have to pay anything if you import from Germany.

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No. USA is outside the EU customs zone, so VAT is payable. You don't have to pay anything if you import from Germany.

Thanks for clarifying.. Which brings us to the original question.. Has anyone tried engaging your own courier to pickup and deliver from CID Frankfurt.. If so, any comments and indicative costs would be very helpful..

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No. USA is outside the EU customs zone, so VAT is payable. You don't have to pay anything if you import from Germany.

Apologies. I'm at work and reading too quick, didn't appreciate this was cross border EU.

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Yes. I agree with your first para as i have used it myself paying 20% VAT.

The bit i was enquiring relates to commisioning your own courier to collect it from CID storage and deliver to you .

As an example, assuming we use Via Mat or UPS to do this for a monster box of Maples (500 Oz). My understanding of the additional costs incurred are:

1. Collection cost charged by CID (£30 in this case)

2. Courier cost (around 17.5 Kgs in this case)??

3. Insurance (i guess the courier companies themselves would be able to provide as a value add service)??

There should not be any additional VAT payable at the port of entry into UK as German VAT (7%) has already been paid.

Dont know how much 1+2+3 would work out to. Hence the post to find out if it is worth the hassle..

Could someone who has done the above please be kind enough to provide some rough figures for the above??

The only time I have bought silver in the UK has been in small of the record private sales.

For silver purchases, I would go to Germany (my gf comes from thier so this is combined with a trip I would be making anyway). As you know, the law states that for any goods bought as a gift or for personal consumption within the EU, thier is no import duty as the tax is considered to have already been paid. For anything considered as a raw material or for something to be sold on for a profit, VAT applies.

So the question is, are your silver coins investment silver (presumably to be sold on for a profit), or poker chips (for personal enjoyment). I brought 17Kg of silver back with me in my personal luggage and when my bag was checked coming through Hamburg airport, I declared the contents (obvioulsy precious metals) as 'poker chips'. Waved through, no problems. Obvioulsy I didn't declare anything at the UK airport.

It is a definite legal grey area and if someone was to really take the case to HM customs, I would suggest that the heavier weight of the argument would weigh in on the 'poker chip' importers favour. Who could possibly argue that the silver rounds aren't to be used as fancy poker chips and what law is there against using round objects made out of a particular metal as gambling toys?

I know this doesn't quite answer your question, but I have effectively been my own courier, had the contents of my bags checked, and got waved through on the grounds that I was carrying poker chips. Had I said 'investment silver', then I would have had to declare the coins in Hamburg, in order to report to HM customs in UK. Giving how cheap budget flights can be....why dont u buy your coins now, and arrange to make a day trip to collect whenever you can book dirt cheap flights?

Edited by BobBobson

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I brought 17Kg of silver back with me in my personal luggage and when my bag was checked coming through Hamburg airport, I declared the contents (obvioulsy precious metals) as 'poker chips'. Waved through, no problems. Obvioulsy I didn't declare anything at the UK airport.

Thanks for this, very interesting.

Can I clarify a couple of things:

Did they open the package at Hamburg and see the physical silver?

Were they coins, rounds or bullion?

And lastly, were you gambling on not being stopped at UK customs? Do you think they would have been so accepting of your 'poker chips' argument?

Cheers.

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I brought 17Kg of silver back with me in my personal luggage and when my bag was checked coming through Hamburg airport, I declared the contents (obvioulsy precious metals) as 'poker chips'. Waved through, no problems. Obvioulsy I didn't declare anything at the UK airport.

Thanks for this, very interesting.

Can I clarify a couple of things:

Did they open the package at Hamburg and see the physical silver?

Were they coins, rounds or bullion?

And lastly, were you gambling on not being stopped at UK customs? Do you think they would have been so accepting of your 'poker chips' argument?

Cheers.

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Thanks for this, very interesting.

Can I clarify a couple of things:

Did they open the package at Hamburg and see the physical silver?

The coins were in my hand luggage. Had I left them with my main luggage, I would imagine I would be running a high risk of a few tubes going missing. The main reason that I got my bag checked was due to having bought some Silver Brittania's which come packaged capsulated in plastic sheets (which looks very odd on the scanner) instead of the standard plastic tubes.

So yes, my bags were opened and the contents, silver bullion (legal tender) coins, analysed. The guy who done the checking was kind of unsure of what to do so he called his superviser who waved me through on the grounds of the silver coins being 'poker chips'.

I wasn't so much gambling on not being stopped at the UK end as simply hoping that I wasn't. Although I feel that I would have a strong and very winnable legal argument if I was stopped, just because you feel that you could win a fight, doesn't change the fact that you would like to avoid getting into one in the first place.

These loopholes exist all over the place if you look for them. As a consumer of Hallicinogenic mushrooms, I had some delightful times when entrenpreneurs up and down the country took advantage of the fact there was no legislation that incriminated against the selling and consumption of specific types of freshly grown pscilocybe mushroom (it was only if it was 'prepared' in anyway that it was considered as a class A drug). Of course, Nu-Lab soon closed that loophole and then it was onto importing them from Dutch 'mind shops' where the loophole that existed for them was that it was ok for them to sell to me from abroad, with it being my responsibility to check with local state laws etc. When that loophole was closed it was still possible to get the things via buying 'grow-kits'. Now that they have made grow-kits illegal, it is still legal to buy the substrate and the syringes containing the pscilocibe spores as seperate 'unrelated' items. I am digressing quite a bit but my point is that if their exists loopholes which allows for the legal import of class A substances into the country, then there most certainly exists loopholes for the legal importation of inert lumps of metal into the country. I would suggest that labelling your investment grade bullion coins as 'poker chips' is one such loophole until they pass such a law that forbids poker players from using chips made out of silver.

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The coins were in my hand luggage. Had I left them with my main luggage, I would imagine I would be running a high risk of a few tubes going missing. The main reason that I got my bag checked was due to having bought some Silver Brittania's which come packaged capsulated in plastic sheets (which looks very odd on the scanner) instead of the standard plastic tubes.

So yes, my bags were opened and the contents, silver bullion (legal tender) coins, analysed. The guy who done the checking was kind of unsure of what to do so he called his superviser who waved me through on the grounds of the silver coins being 'poker chips'.

These loopholes exist all over the place if you look for them.

There's no loophole. The silver was delivered to the retail customer in Germany. The VAT was paid in Germany. From that point on the goods are in free circulation within the EU. There is no additional VAT to pay in any other EU country. Each country within the EU has the right to charge VAT at the rates they want and decide what goods and services their rates apply to.

If it was a sale to a business then the VAT would have been Zero rated under the reverse charge regulations. The EU import into the UK would be shown by the importer on his VAT return as both an output and an input thus cancelling out on the return. When the business sold them they would declare the output tax on their next VAT return.

It is a totally legitimate procedure there is no question of fraud or exploitation of a loophole. Coininvest Direct explain it quite clearly on their website.

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I would suggest that labelling your investment grade bullion coins as 'poker chips' is one such loophole until they pass such a law that forbids poker players from using chips made out of silver.

Cheers for this. I agree that the argument is sound, but I also imagine that HMRC have the power to do more or less wtf they like, including confiscation until such time that any charges they deem appropriate are paid in full! :rolleyes:

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There's no loophole. The silver was delivered to the retail customer in Germany. The VAT was paid in Germany. From that point on the goods are in free circulation within the EU. There is no additional VAT to pay in any other EU country.

Yes, I understood this. But that doesn't stop HMRC from levying import duties, although I'm not sure what it would amount to if they considered it to be investment silver. If you're paying 20% VAT, obviously these don't apply, but if not....the govt want their cut one way or another!

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Yes, I understood this. But that doesn't stop HMRC from levying import duties, although I'm not sure what it would amount to if they considered it to be investment silver. If you're paying 20% VAT, obviously these don't apply, but if not....the govt want their cut one way or another!

They can't levy import duties on goods that are in free circulation within the EU. That was one of the main principals of the EU. The abolition of duty payable on goods within the EU.

Excises can apply to certain goods. At the moment gold and silver are not excisable goods. I doubt the EU would allow HMRC to make them subject to excises.

Lets not forget HMRC were punished for their confiscatory regulations about tobacco and alcohol in breach of EU principles. So national governments don't have a completely free hand in respect of treaties they have entered into. Any rules they enact are subject to compliance with EU principles.

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They can't levy import duties on goods that are in free circulation within the EU. That was one of the main principals of the EU. The abolition of duty payable on goods within the EU.

Excises can apply to certain goods. At the moment gold and silver are not excisable goods. I doubt the EU would allow HMRC to make them subject to excises.

Here's a link to an explanatory EU publication.

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At the moment gold and silver are not excisable goods.

Very happy to be corrected, thanks!

So in actual fact, no need to use the poker chip ruse....just respond to any HMRC questioning by saying "yes officer, this is my silver, I have paid my VAT in Germany and so there is no more tax or duty to pay, so there"?

Is this right?

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The only time I have bought silver in the UK has been in small of the record private sales.

For silver purchases, I would go to Germany (my gf comes from thier so this is combined with a trip I would be making anyway). As you know, the law states that for any goods bought as a gift or for personal consumption within the EU, thier is no import duty as the tax is considered to have already been paid. For anything considered as a raw material or for something to be sold on for a profit, VAT applies.

So the question is, are your silver coins investment silver (presumably to be sold on for a profit), or poker chips (for personal enjoyment). I brought 17Kg of silver back with me in my personal luggage and when my bag was checked coming through Hamburg airport, I declared the contents (obvioulsy precious metals) as 'poker chips'. Waved through, no problems. Obvioulsy I didn't declare anything at the UK airport.

It is a definite legal grey area and if someone was to really take the case to HM customs, I would suggest that the heavier weight of the argument would weigh in on the 'poker chip' importers favour. Who could possibly argue that the silver rounds aren't to be used as fancy poker chips and what law is there against using round objects made out of a particular metal as gambling toys?

I know this doesn't quite answer your question, but I have effectively been my own courier, had the contents of my bags checked, and got waved through on the grounds that I was carrying poker chips. Had I said 'investment silver', then I would have had to declare the coins in Hamburg, in order to report to HM customs in UK. Giving how cheap budget flights can be....why dont u buy your coins now, and arrange to make a day trip to collect whenever you can book dirt cheap flights?

Another thing to note is, with Ryanair and I expect is the same with all carriers, one is not permitted to have bullion in the hold luggage, only cabin luggage, which is restricted to 10KG.

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Another thing to note is, with Ryanair and I expect is the same with all carriers, one is not permitted to have bullion in the hold luggage, only cabin luggage, which is restricted to 10KG.

Has anyone had experience of ordering from Silvermountain in Netherlands? They claim no further VAT payable over the 6%:

https://www.thesilvermountain.nl/faq.php?language=en#6

this would make 500 Maples better value than coininvestdirect - is this possible because they are a smaller volume outlet?

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Thanks..The fact that bringing Silver from the EU into the UK does not attract any additional Tax has been clarified.. Now the next bit to be found is the procedure and the indicative cost involved in buying and bringing the stuff from CID facilities into the UK.

The Silvermountain route looks very interesting but the only issue that i have is the lack of backing that CID has in this forum.In addition, there is no realtime pricing info as in the CID website. Still an very good find..

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Thanks..The fact that bringing Silver from the EU into the UK does not attract any additional Tax has been clarified.. Now the next bit to be found is the procedure and the indicative cost involved in buying and bringing the stuff from CID facilities into the UK.

A rail trip from the UK to Frankfurt, if one wants to go in person to collect.

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A rail trip from the UK to Frankfurt, if one wants to go in person to collect.

Train trip timings are quite tedious for a day trip unless you want to take a break for a night or will be clubbing this with other visit to Germany. Taking a break for a night increases your risk (you dont want to be roaming arond with your stuff) as well as the trip cost.. The best possibility would be a flight trip. But wondering if any airlines would allow around 20 Kgs in your hand baggage. I am sure people would not be comfortable checking in the PM.

Somehow, it makes me feel couriering it would be a better idea if it works out for a reasonable fee.. Does anyone have any indicative pricing details..

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Train trip timings are quite tedious for a day trip unless you want to take a break for a night or will be clubbing this with other visit to Germany. Taking a break for a night increases your risk (you dont want to be roaming arond with your stuff) as well as the trip cost.. The best possibility would be a flight trip. But wondering if any airlines would allow around 20 Kgs in your hand baggage. I am sure people would not be comfortable checking in the PM.

Somehow, it makes me feel couriering it would be a better idea if it works out for a reasonable fee.. Does anyone have any indicative pricing details..

I purchased a small number from Coininvest. Fortunately i was able to have them delivered to a friend in Germany who brought them into the UK for me. The approx cost for a courier (UPS) was in the region of £50 including insurance.

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Train trip timings are quite tedious for a day trip unless you want to take a break for a night or will be clubbing this with other visit to Germany. Taking a break for a night increases your risk (you dont want to be roaming arond with your stuff) as well as the trip cost.. The best possibility would be a flight trip. But wondering if any airlines would allow around 20 Kgs in your hand baggage. I am sure people would not be comfortable checking in the PM.

Somehow, it makes me feel couriering it would be a better idea if it works out for a reasonable fee.. Does anyone have any indicative pricing details..

Collect the coins the next morning before you leave.

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