mel in w9 Posted May 21, 2011 Share Posted May 21, 2011 I admit I probably only agree with about 10% of the regular posters on this board. Sorry, but I just don't buy that the "welfare" state is the cause of the economic crisis this nation (and many others are facing). Unless you mean the welfare for the banks. But while there are some very good posts on this thread, I have yet to read any real solutions. Cutting back the benefits, while it may save a bit of money, it is hardly going to change the outcome. I mean look at Ireland. Does it look to you like severe austerity measures are working there, even with their housing market collapsed? I think Vince Cable probably is attempting to prepare people for the worst. He is correct in doing this. However, I don't think the policies this coalition government are trying to implement are going to make life better for anyone, but the wealthiest in the UK. Why is there not a 10% tax on wealthy non-doms in this country? You think the oligarchs from Russia or India are going to return home just because they have to pay a pittance of their massive wealth in tax? Why aren't banks (especially the ones which have been bailed out by us, the taxpayer) being forced to lend to small businesses? Why is minimum wage in this country so low? Has anyone here ever read the book The Spirit Level? I have and what it highlights to me is that nations (such as Norway, Sweden, Denmark, Germany) which are more socially and economically balanced have a much higher standard of living for everyone. Why are none of these countries hurting massively at the moment? The British model is failing. Perhaps the collapse is inevitable. But trying to do the same thing again and again, isn't going to work. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Errol Posted May 21, 2011 Share Posted May 21, 2011 He's talking about a future, further devaluation here IMHO. This is the warning we can't say we didn't have. Buy gold/silver/oil/agricultural investments etc etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Si1 Posted May 21, 2011 Share Posted May 21, 2011 I admit I probably only agree with about 10% of the regular posters on this board. Sorry, but I just don't buy that the "welfare" state is the cause of the economic crisis this nation (and many others are facing). Unless you mean the welfare for the banks. But while there are some very good posts on this thread, I have yet to read any real solutions. Cutting back the benefits, while it may save a bit of money, it is hardly going to change the outcome. I mean look at Ireland. Does it look to you like severe austerity measures are working there, even with their housing market collapsed? I think Vince Cable probably is attempting to prepare people for the worst. He is correct in doing this. However, I don't think the policies this coalition government are trying to implement are going to make life better for anyone, but the wealthiest in the UK. Why is there not a 10% tax on wealthy non-doms in this country? You think the oligarchs from Russia or India are going to return home just because they have to pay a pittance of their massive wealth in tax? Why aren't banks (especially the ones which have been bailed out by us, the taxpayer) being forced to lend to small businesses? Why is minimum wage in this country so low? Has anyone here ever read the book The Spirit Level? I have and what it highlights to me is that nations (such as Norway, Sweden, Denmark, Germany) which are more socially and economically balanced have a much higher standard of living for everyone. Why are none of these countries hurting massively at the moment? The British model is failing. Perhaps the collapse is inevitable. But trying to do the same thing again and again, isn't going to work. the spirit level is lazy selective b*llsh*t - if it was any good it would have been serialised in peer-reviewed economics journals Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mel in w9 Posted May 21, 2011 Share Posted May 21, 2011 the spirit level is lazy selective b*llsh*t - if it was any good it would have been serialised in peer-reviewed economics journals Have you actually read it, or are you just regurgitating some right wing BS you read about it. Sometimes its good to make up your own mind, instead of just following someone else's POV. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Injin Posted May 21, 2011 Share Posted May 21, 2011 Have you actually read it, or are you just regurgitating some right wing BS you read about it. Sometimes its good to make up your own mind, instead of just following someone else's POV. Countries with the highest suicide rates in the world are models of social enlightenment? oh that's right, it's the lack of sunlight that causes it. Or abba. Or something. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Si1 Posted May 21, 2011 Share Posted May 21, 2011 Have you actually read it, or are you just regurgitating some right wing BS you read about it. Sometimes its good to make up your own mind, instead of just following someone else's POV. pot. kettle. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mel in w9 Posted May 21, 2011 Share Posted May 21, 2011 Countries with the highest suicide rates in the world are models of social enlightenment? oh that's right, it's the lack of sunlight that causes it. Or abba. Or something. After 35,443 posts, have you actually ever made a truly intelligent comment on this board? Or do you just like to stir up the pot? There is a little something called Seasonal Affective Disorder (SAD) which has a significant impact on suicide rates. More northerly nations tend to have a greater problem with this due to climate and lack of sunlight in winter months. Unfortunately no matter how economically equal your nation is, you can't change the weather- FACT! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Injin Posted May 21, 2011 Share Posted May 21, 2011 After 35,443 posts, have you actually ever made a truly intelligent comment on this board? Or do you just like to stir up the pot? There is a little something called Seasonal Affective Disorder (SAD) which has a significant impact on suicide rates. More northerly nations tend to have a greater problem with this due to climate and lack of sunlight in winter months. Unfortunately no matter how economically equal your nation is, you can't change the weather- FACT! That's why siberia has the same problem as norway - oh wait! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Si1 Posted May 21, 2011 Share Posted May 21, 2011 Unfortunately no matter how economically equal your nation is, you can't change the weather- FACT! you're weird Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mel in w9 Posted May 21, 2011 Share Posted May 21, 2011 pot. kettle. Not sure what you mean. I have read The Spirit Level. I am basing my opinion about it by what I read, not what someone else told me it was about. If you mean have I ever read books by authors I might not agree with. Why yes, I have. I tend to like to make my own mind about things, instead of having someone else tell me how to think. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mel in w9 Posted May 21, 2011 Share Posted May 21, 2011 you're weird Thank you. That may be the nicest comment I have received on this board. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Si1 Posted May 21, 2011 Share Posted May 21, 2011 Not sure what you mean. I have read The Spirit Level. I am basing my opinion about it by what I read, not what someone else told me it was about. If you mean have I ever read books by authors I might not agree with. Why yes, I have. I tend to like to make my own mind about things, instead of having someone else tell me how to think. the spririt level claims objective findings using an unobjective unreviewed method I have read articles/extracts from the authors of it, same deal, they are charlatans reading it without reference to its context (non peer reviewed) just makes you a fool Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wonderpup Posted May 21, 2011 Share Posted May 21, 2011 Countries with the highest suicide rates in the world are models of social enlightenment? oh that's right, it's the lack of sunlight that causes it. Or abba. Or something. I think places like Sweden, Denmark and Germany tend to see themselves as more of a collective- so the neo liberal 'every man for himself' idea plays less well in those places. I can see why you felt the itch to stick the boot in here though- it is a bit of an embarrassment for the free market or bust brigade that these 'socialist' places are on whole doing a lot better than their own cultural champions the US and UK. I saw a really funny interview with an american right winger who assured his audience that Sweden and Denmark and the rest would shortly slide into the sea due to their 'socialist' policies- any......day.....now. Bound to happen....soon. No really- they will fail- I promise Pathetic. The fact is they got it right- they did not simply lay down in path of the globalist steamroller and it's neo liberal crew and now are in much better shape than we are. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Si1 Posted May 21, 2011 Share Posted May 21, 2011 I think places like Sweden, Denmark and Germany tend to see themselves as more of a collective- so the neo liberal 'every man for himself' idea plays less well in those places. I can see why you felt the itch to stick the boot in here though- it is a bit of an embarrassment for the free market or bust brigade that these 'socialist' places are on whole doing a lot better than their own cultural champions the US and UK. I saw a really funny interview with an american right winger who assured his audience that Sweden and Denmark and the rest would shortly slide into the sea due to their 'socialist' policies- any......day.....now. Bound to happen....soon. No really- they will fail- I promise Pathetic. The fact is they got it right- they did not simply lay down in path of the globalist steamroller and it's neo liberal crew and now are in much better shape than we are. Sweden has just elected its 2nd conservative govt in a row, and Germany has - although not exclusively - been largely right of centre for some years true there's a deal of societal collectivism, but this is not the same as socialism Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Injin Posted May 21, 2011 Share Posted May 21, 2011 I think places like Sweden, Denmark and Germany tend to see themselves as more of a collective- so the neo liberal 'every man for himself' idea plays less well in those places. I can see why you felt the itch to stick the boot in here though- it is a bit of an embarrassment for the free market or bust brigade that these 'socialist' places are on whole doing a lot better than their own cultural champions the US and UK. Erm ..what? The Uk is a facist set up, so is the US. 50% of all economic activity is state based. I saw a really funny interview with an american right winger who assured his audience that Sweden and Denmark and the rest would shortly slide into the sea due to their 'socialist' policies- any......day.....now. Bound to happen....soon. No really- they will fail- I promise Pathetic. The fact is they got it right- they did not simply lay down in path of the globalist steamroller and it's neo liberal crew and now are in much better shape than we are. That's right. Quite why you think globalisation and the UK and US states have anything at all to do with a free market I'd love to know. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Si1 Posted May 21, 2011 Share Posted May 21, 2011 Quite why you think globalisation and the UK and US states have anything at all to do with a free market I'd love to know. pretty much, and comparing them to the more succesful countries of Germany and Sweden, with, err, conservative governments, clearly proves , erm, something Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
General Congreve Posted May 21, 2011 Share Posted May 21, 2011 (edited) Flippin's hell, an admission that we are all shafted and that our economy is toast! Wonder how sterling will hold up? Edited May 21, 2011 by General Congreve Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Si1 Posted May 21, 2011 Share Posted May 21, 2011 Many men's pain can be a few men's pleasure though. Greatest wealth transfer in history, here we come just not to you, heh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Timm Posted May 21, 2011 Share Posted May 21, 2011 Countries with the highest suicide rates in the world are models of social enlightenment? oh that's right, it's the lack of sunlight that causes it. Or abba. Or something. Why do you think it is? Not sure what you mean. I have read The Spirit Level. I am basing my opinion about it by what I read, not what someone else told me it was about. If you mean have I ever read books by authors I might not agree with. Why yes, I have. I tend to like to make my own mind about things, instead of having someone else tell me how to think. And has reading the book changed how you think? the spririt level claims objective findings using an unobjective unreviewed method I have read articles/extracts from the authors of it, same deal, they are charlatans reading it without reference to its context (non peer reviewed) just makes you a fool To be fair, shouting "peer review" is not actually an argument. Anyway, the peer review system is not in itself without flaws. In a closed system where people find themselves ignored, unfunded or unpublished if they dare to challenge the consensus, they can be strangely unwilling to challenge the consensus. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Game_Over Posted May 21, 2011 Share Posted May 21, 2011 I admit I probably only agree with about 10% of the regular posters on this board. Sorry, but I just don't buy that the "welfare" state is the cause of the economic crisis this nation (and many others are facing). Unless you mean the welfare for the banks. But while there are some very good posts on this thread, I have yet to read any real solutions. Cutting back the benefits, while it may save a bit of money, it is hardly going to change the outcome. I mean look at Ireland. Does it look to you like severe austerity measures are working there, even with their housing market collapsed? I think Vince Cable probably is attempting to prepare people for the worst. He is correct in doing this. However, I don't think the policies this coalition government are trying to implement are going to make life better for anyone, but the wealthiest in the UK. Why is there not a 10% tax on wealthy non-doms in this country? You think the oligarchs from Russia or India are going to return home just because they have to pay a pittance of their massive wealth in tax? Why aren't banks (especially the ones which have been bailed out by us, the taxpayer) being forced to lend to small businesses? Why is minimum wage in this country so low? Has anyone here ever read the book The Spirit Level? I have and what it highlights to me is that nations (such as Norway, Sweden, Denmark, Germany) which are more socially and economically balanced have a much higher standard of living for everyone. Why are none of these countries hurting massively at the moment? The British model is failing. Perhaps the collapse is inevitable. But trying to do the same thing again and again, isn't going to work. The banks are not to blame for the situation we are in - politicians are to blame. The reason you believe banks are to blame is that is what the politicians want you to think, so well done for being an 'independent thinker'. And clearly once the state consumes more wealth than the private sector can generate the endgame in bankruptcy. TBH it now matters not one iota what you or I think because the political agenda is now being driven by events Reality is about to destroy the 'European Model' and it will be replaced either by extreme rightwing or national socialist governments. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Si1 Posted May 21, 2011 Share Posted May 21, 2011 To be fair, shouting "peer review" is not actually an argument. Anyway, the peer review system is not in itself without flaws. In a closed system where people find themselves ignored, unfunded or unpublished if they dare to challenge the consensus, they can be strangely unwilling to challenge the consensus. on its own fair enough, except for a social treatise to evade the peer review process in a very very broad subject like social and economic sciences where there ARE significant very left-wing sympathies, is remarklable; the leftwingers I have met in social sciences still maintain strict standard in the use of statistics, which is the chief failing of the book in question Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Game_Over Posted May 21, 2011 Share Posted May 21, 2011 I think places like Sweden, Denmark and Germany tend to see themselves as more of a collective- so the neo liberal 'every man for himself' idea plays less well in those places. I can see why you felt the itch to stick the boot in here though- it is a bit of an embarrassment for the free market or bust brigade that these 'socialist' places are on whole doing a lot better than their own cultural champions the US and UK. I saw a really funny interview with an american right winger who assured his audience that Sweden and Denmark and the rest would shortly slide into the sea due to their 'socialist' policies- any......day.....now. Bound to happen....soon. No really- they will fail- I promise Pathetic. The fact is they got it right- they did not simply lay down in path of the globalist steamroller and it's neo liberal crew and now are in much better shape than we are. Denmark will turn either extreme rightwing or National Socialist within the next few years or it will become the first Moslem nation in Western Europe. http://www.dw-world.de/dw/article/0,,15068183,00.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Injin Posted May 21, 2011 Share Posted May 21, 2011 Why do you think it is? No idea. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
24gray24 Posted May 21, 2011 Share Posted May 21, 2011 But while there are some very good posts on this thread, I have yet to read any real solutions. Cutting back the benefits, while it may save a bit of money, it is hardly going to change the outcome. Benefits have nothing to do with it. Causes of the problem are: giant inflation of currency caused by governments monetising banks' debts. Unless govt lets banks go bust, the problem will get worse and worse. We also have long term policy problems, also caused by money fiddling ie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
athom Posted May 21, 2011 Share Posted May 21, 2011 This is all utter tripe and bullsh1t. It is the direct result of the WTO. It is the direct result of the trade imbalances. It is the direct result of Thatcher removing capital controls. The size of the three banks balance sheets is a direct result of the above two government policies. To claim there is nothing 'we' can do about any of this is disingenous obfuscation and worse, outright lying to the public. Cable had a voice in opposition but he turned into the worse sort of apologist for the globalists in govt. WE NEED TO SCRAP THE WTO, IMPLEMENT CAPITAL CONTROLS AND TARIFFS AND STOP ALL THIS 'WE CAN'T DO ANYTHING ABOUT IT' CR4P. We're Britain, and we do what we want. Edit: China joined the WTO in November 2001. Before that the US largely ran trade SURPLUSES. If you look at what has happened since then, including of course the trajectory of the US dollar which topper out in 2001, and the naturally increasing dollar value of commodities in opposition to the dollar, you can see where the problems started. CHINA, the WTO and removal/reduction in tariff barriers. Everything else flows from that. If Vince wasn't a devious tw4t that's what he'd be explaining to the public. Not the 'value' of the deficit(s), but the reasons. Explain the reasons why you want us to run deficits Vince! Tell the public who pay your wages why you want China and India to have all the jobs, and us to have all the debts! You pretend you're a man with integrity, so stop lying and tell the truth! I think one thing it's easy to do when not in power and especially easy to do on a web forum is call for massive changes. In power i suspect the reality hits and the law of unintended consequences looms a lot larger, the risks are then real possibilities which become their real responsibility to avoid. All people when they get in power decide it's maybe not such a good idea to tear up the rule book after all, i don't think it's a coincidence. i don't doubt they're all effectively turned into slaves for the illuminate rather than the rousing populist idealist they were in opposition but it's because that's where we're at and they don't have the ability to escape that reality and magic up a better world just like that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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