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Ken Clarke Says Sorry Over Rape Comments

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Ken Clarke has apologised for giving the impression he does not consider some rape cases as serious.

The Justice Secretary earlier told Sky News he regarded "all rape as a serious crime", after he appeared to suggest there were different categories of the offence.

He was forced to clarify comments in which he seemed to draw a distinction between "serious, proper rapes" and others...

http://news.sky.com/skynews/Home/Politics/Video-Ken-Clarke-Rape-Row-Every-Rape-Is-Serious-Justice-Secretary-Tells-Sky-News/Article/201105315994206?lpos=Politics_First_Home_Article_Teaser_Region_2&lid=ARTICLE_15994206_Video%2C_Ken_Clarke_Rape_Row%3A_Every_Rape_Is_Serious%2C_Justice_Secretary_Tells_Sky_News

Personally, I agree with him. He wasn't saying some rapes are acceptable, but that some rapes are more serious than others.

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It makes little difference if he is right or wrong, it was pretty damned stupid to say what he said.

Maybe there is something else going on here........................

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It makes little difference if he is right or wrong, it was pretty damned stupid to say what he said.

Maybe there is something else going on here........................

Did you actually listen to what he said?

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He's quite right. He wasn't saying that rape is alright. He was saying it starts at really bad and gets worse from there.

Given how the definition has expanded under the likes of Harfwit, does it even start at Really Bad?

Thought experiment: suppose it's physically possible for a woman to have full sex with an unwilling man by violence (maybe using some chemical stimulus to 'help' him, erm, stand to attention in adverse circumstances). Is that rape, and if so, who is at fault?

AIUI, if she's under-age, then legally speaking he is raping her! The logic being, any penetration without consent is rape, and a minor cannot give consent. How long a jail sentence does he deserve?

[edit to add] Paging Tom Sharpe! Where's Henry Wilt?

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It makes little difference if he is right or wrong, it was pretty damned stupid to say what he said.

Maybe there is something else going on here........................

I think I know what he was saying but couldn't say flat out...

I'll play devils advocate here:

Being attacked at knife point being dragged into some bushes.

A he said she said scenario.

Hollyoaks the TV series played this quite well. One of the women claimed she had been raped. The act wasn't shown, instead IIRC it showed kissing on the sofa, it cut away then it shows her leaving quietly in the morning getting dressed and slipping out the door. CH4 used an audience voting system and they ran a mock trial for the cameras. The audience voted for not guilty.

Thus it isn't black and white! There are quite a few shades of grey in between in the he said she said scenarios. Hell we've even had a few cases posted up on HPC about the I don't want to be seen as a slag scenario.

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Thought experiment: suppose it's physically possible for a woman to have full sex with an unwilling man by violence (maybe using some chemical stimulus to 'help' him, erm, stand to attention in adverse circumstances). Is that rape, and if so, who is at fault?

It is physically possible as you have less control over it than you think! And people respond differently to different circumstances! You should see tandem skydivers in response to the fear of going out the door. A dude nearly had my eye out once.

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It is physically possible as you have less control over it than you think! And people respond differently to different circumstances! You should see tandem skydivers in response to the fear of going out the door. A dude nearly had my eye out once.

Wow, had no idea that you guys got up to that kind of thing up there. Now I understand why they always wear goggles in the films.

But I thought those jumpsuits made it rather tricky?

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It is physically possible as you have less control over it than you think! And people respond differently to different circumstances! You should see tandem skydivers in response to the fear of going out the door. A dude nearly had my eye out once.

Would it count as rape if penetration happened through the eye?

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Exactly. Why all the fuss? Have the politicians and media nothing better to occupy their time!

We're paying them for this nonsense. They should be ashamed of themselves, but I doubt they will be.

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Disgusting opportunism from Ed Milliband and the Labour Party, aided by Labours media machine, the BBC by blowing it up out of all proportion.

I cannot ******ing stand the modus operandi of the Labour party, the country would be a much more pleasant place to live if we were cleansed of these arseholes.

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Another shit storm stirred up by the gentlemen of the press.

They really will twist anything to get a story, and this had all the ingredients they and their readers want.

End result: no politician who wants to keep his job will speak his mind on sensitive topics.

All politicians will use conversation which does not include any possible controversy or headline fodder, particularly offence to any member of society, British or overseas. Exceptions are when it is decided that policy has to be released to the people in this manner.

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Disgusting opportunism from Ed Milliband and the Labour Party, aided by Labours media machine, the BBC by blowing it up out of all proportion.

I cannot ******ing stand the modus operandi of the Labour party, the country would be a much more pleasant place to live if we were cleansed of these arseholes.

++ & Frankie

Sick of the empty soundbite pseudo military nonwords that liebore spout constantly, the bbc parrot and the tories fail to follow up on.

Personally I think Ken has gone up in the world by this, specially amongst the 'silent majority' whatever that is.

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Disgusting opportunism from Ed Milliband and the Labour Party, aided by Labours media machine, the BBC by blowing it up out of all proportion.

I cannot ******ing stand the modus operandi of the Labour party, the country would be a much more pleasant place to live if we were cleansed of these arseholes.

+1. Nothing else to add.

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Given how the definition has expanded under the likes of Harfwit, does it even start at Really Bad?

...

Wasn't the rape word being freely bandied about wrt Julian Assange when his alleged crime was to carry on having sex when he supposedly knew his condom had split? I honestly can't put this is hardly in the same category as hiding in the bushes with a knife waiting to jump someone, or spiking someone's drink and rendering them incapable. There was the idiot Toby what'sisname on radio sheffield this am bemoaning the fact that 'only' 6% or so of allegations resulted in convictions, as though 'they' should somehow relax the rules on evidence a bit to get the score up to whatever target he thinks is acceptable.

Obviously, for the hard of thinking I'll add that I do not think that rape is a trivial offence worthy of 2 weeks in an open prison (10 years min actual time for the soundly convicted armed rapists or drink spikers would be fine by me).

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Wasn't the rape word being freely bandied about wrt Julian Assange when his alleged crime was to carry on having sex when he supposedly knew his condom had split? I honestly can't put this is hardly in the same category as hiding in the bushes with a knife waiting to jump someone, or spiking someone's drink and rendering them incapable. There was the idiot Toby what'sisname on radio sheffield this am bemoaning the fact that 'only' 6% or so of allegations resulted in convictions, as though 'they' should somehow relax the rules on evidence a bit to get the score up to whatever target he thinks is acceptable.

Obviously, for the hard of thinking I'll add that I do not think that rape is a trivial offence worthy of 2 weeks in an open prison (10 years min actual time for the soundly convicted armed rapists or drink spikers would be fine by me).

Thats part of the problem, rapes are often by people the victim knows, and it is not always as clear cut as you state ie person in the bushes. It can be clouded by so many factors you don't know who to believe.

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Look everyone "Rape is rape" okay !

Thats exactly why the court gives every rapist exactly the same sentence.... Oh, erm, hang on....

ALL crimes cover a spectrum of severity. At least this is what the legal system infers given its sentencing. That is all Ken Clarke said IMHO.

edit: bad punctuation.

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I have to say I agree with the sense of this thread and the nuances of rape. The Assange reference is a good one - if he were to get done it would be classed as rape, when it was nothing of the sort (the fit-up aside).

The Labour way seems to do 'utter disgust' where it's nothing to get excited about and suppress discussion where it might matter (e.g., immigration, surveillance, etc.)

It would appear that Milliband made sure he was bookended by the Sisterhood (seating arrangement changes for Ed to confront Cameron with him being flanked by the Harriden and the ladyboy. (Harman & Cooper-Balls).

Sickening opportunism.

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Obviously, for the hard of thinking I'll add that I do not think that rape is a trivial offence worthy of 2 weeks in an open prison (10 years min actual time for the soundly convicted armed rapists or drink spikers would be fine by me).

Trouble is, once you push things too far, it becomes more efficient to top the victim afterwards. While I agree with the sentiment, we wouldn't want to push it to the point that a transgressor feels they may just as well take it a stage further.

Hence capital punishment is rarely used for anything but extreme crime.

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Manslaughter > Murder

Aggravated assault > Grevious bodily harm > Actual bodily harm

Maybe someone wants to ask those whinging about what Clarke is saying: Why are they not also complaining as to why our courts/judges and public are more than happy to accept different levels of severity for assault and killing someone - but not a rape.

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Sometimes I wish the media could just say "sorry folks.. not a lot happened today" instead of having to make up a half baked smear story out of a nothing event.

I accept that some people have to make a living, but it's not like the BBC have any excuse..

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Ken Clarke shouldn't have apologised as it suggests he said something wrong - he didn't, everyone who read what he said knows it, and the Tories lost an opportunity here to hang Milliband out to dry for his pathetic attempt at point scoring.

A waste of time all round, the 'black and white' debaters win again and any form of subtlety, logic and nuance in a public debate is lost, again. A win for the political establishment.

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Ken Clarke shouldn't have apologised as it suggests he said something wrong - he didn't, everyone who read what he said knows it, and the Tories lost an opportunity here to hang Milliband out to dry for his pathetic attempt at point scoring.

A waste of time all round, the 'black and white' debaters win again and any form of subtlety, logic and nuance in a public debate is lost, again. A win for the political establishment.

+1

This shows complete moral cowardice by Cameron & Co.

They should have turned the tables on Miliband, not given in to this kind of cynical opportunism.

IMO

:blink:

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  • 311 Brexit, House prices and Summer 2020

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