U K Taxpayers "agree" To Help Portugal With £4.3Bn

[_w_]

IT's OK saying that, but what can the individual do about it? I keep racking my brains, but end up getting frustrated as I'm just one person. I also voted UKIP, but there must be more that can be done...

I know. And don't get me wrong, I'm just as inactive as you are.

What makes me laugh is the call to arms and hopeful forecasts of revolution by people who have no intention of doing anything themselves.

Edited May 17, 2011 by _w_

[aa3]

People don't really understand the issues. Most of the population won't even get the memo that we bailed out Portugal (sorry, the Bankers) to the tune of £500 per family. They will see no immediate change in their lives as a result of this news anyway, so it is unlikely to resonate with them even if they have.

Only when the result of government largesse (I use that term to encompass previous governments as well) come home to roost fully, and people see inflation and taxes go really nuts to pay for all the stupid decisions, will people start to wake up. Even then, most won't understand why or how we got there, just that things aren't like they used to be and they don't like it, boo hoo.

Personally I think the banks and politicians are criminal, but why put yourself in harms way protesting in direct action? It's not that effective anyway. The best thing you can do to protect yourself from their appalling decisions and to stick it to the banks is to take your money out of the banks and put it in gold. Not only will it protect your wealth from the ravages of the inflation they are unleashing (without endangering your life), but the more people who do it, the more it undermines the banks.

Alternatively sit here and moan about it.

Yes I believe the average person is too ignorant for democracy to work. The average person just wants to live and enjoy their life, not spend 20 years becoming an expert about all sorts of policy positions.

What you say is true the people will never wake up until it gets very bad. Then they will be more angry than we can imagine and will likely jump behind the strongest and most radical/charismatic leader.

[SHERWICK]

http://www.dailymail...grees-deal.html

Every family in Britain will contribute £500 to bail out the euro after George Osborne last night signed up to a rescue fund for Portugal.

The Chancellor and fellow finance ministers agreed a Europe-wide £68billion deal to prop up the single currency by rescuing Portugal, which will cost UK taxpayers £4.3billion.

What with milions being given to Pakistan to help improve their schools and now billions for the EUROzone its little wonder people in this country are getting sick and tired of it all. But how do people express their discontent? I voted UKIP in the last local elecions but didn't even hear if they got any votes other than mine!

Sorry. Forgot to tell you that your vote was declared null and void due to a minor discrepancy.

My apologies for any inconvenience caused.

If you wish to make a formal complaint, please complete the following form and submit to your council's Formal Complaints Department.

Many thanks.

Kind regards,

Sherwick.

[mel in w9]

I'm afraid voting UKIP won't help. The EU has been one of the biggest drags preventing our economy and society becoming even more American and right-wing. Just think of all the social legislation (the Social Chapter, for instance and all that consumer protection) that would have not been in force now if it wasn't for the EU. We've had a Tory government (in one way or another) for the last 30 years, and look what's happened. All your money is being siphoned off to a minority of people (think of the City of London for what it really is -- an offshore tax haven). We have been convinced that by paying for the common good we are wasting our money, so if we privatise it, it will be more effectively spent. Hey, guess what, you now pay for everything that was once given free; you pay to park *everywhere* now; you pay far more than you should to go on a train (it's subsidised, FFS, but they still make a profit -- out of YOU!); you have high rents because they sold off all the social housing and never replaced it -- social housing helped to keep rents low. And still millions think they are better off because they have more money in their pockets.

I find it amazing how so many people have been conned. The AV referendum wasn't perfect, but it was an opportunity to change things. However the Tories got behind No and scuppered the Yes campaign (Conservative Home: The story of the AV campaign). That many on the Labour side helped this is a disgrace, but it just goes to show that turkeys don't vote for Christmas. Both Labour and Tory are right-wing parties, and of those that bother to vote more than 30% DON'T vote for them. That it was AV and not PR shows how well the Tories conned the Lib Dems. But that there was an opportunity to change things should have been taken with both hands.

the next constitutional thing they are talking about is the House of Lords. They are saying there should be a referendum to make that an elected house (well 80% of it). Now folks, if you believe in democracy, GET OFF YOUR ARSES AND VOTE FOR CHANGE. If you don't, because what's the point, or there are more important things to complain about, then you deserve everything you get.

We need an economy based on real things -- we need to make new technology devices, and we need to be competing in software and the IT revolution. We don't need to be looking at freeing up capital controls between countries and developing more and more ingenious ways to 'make money' from money. That is the fool's direction -- and one we have been going in since the 1960s when we agreed to look after Russia's US dollars.

Until this country wakes up to the fact that the few are stealing off the many to give to the few, and that we need to go back to owning much more as a nation (Nationalisation, remember that?) we will be in deep dodo. They say 25% of people will probably live in a freezing house this winter because they can't afford the high energy prices. Well Nationalise the utility companies and subsidise the unit cost of electricity and gas by taking more from the rich to do this.

LVT anyone?

OK, rant over.

+100

This has to be one of the most pragmatic, intelligent posts I have read on this site. It's refreshing to read something besides the pro-Libertarian rants.

The EU is NOT the problem for the UK. I mean look at Germany, it is far more intertwined into Europe than Britain. But the German economy could eat the British economy for lunch. Why? Because they actually operate much more like a true social democracy. Instead of some neo-conservative, American government wanna be, which the British government (for decades) has emulated.

[hpc-craig]

Who do I write to in order to get my £500 tax refund?

I don't want to bail out banks (UK or European), I don't want to bail out failing currencies, I don't want to bail out other countries, and no one asked me if I did.

My MP? The Treasury? George Osbourne?

[Realistbear]

I'm afraid voting UKIP won't help. The EU has been one of the biggest drags preventing our economy and society becoming even more American and right-wing. Just think of all the social legislation (the Social Chapter, for instance and all that consumer protection) that would have not been in force now if it wasn't for the EU. We've had a Tory government (in one way or another) for the last 30 years, and look what's happened. All your money is being siphoned off to a minority of people (think of the City of London for what it really is -- an offshore tax haven). We have been convinced that by paying for the common good we are wasting our money, so if we privatise it, it will be more effectively spent. Hey, guess what, you now pay for everything that was once given free; you pay to park *everywhere* now; you pay far more than you should to go on a train (it's subsidised, FFS, but they still make a profit -- out of YOU!); you have high rents because they sold off all the social housing and never replaced it -- social housing helped to keep rents low. And still millions think they are better off because they have more money in their pockets.

I find it amazing how so many people have been conned. The AV referendum wasn't perfect, but it was an opportunity to change things. However the Tories got behind No and scuppered the Yes campaign (Conservative Home: The story of the AV campaign). That many on the Labour side helped this is a disgrace, but it just goes to show that turkeys don't vote for Christmas. Both Labour and Tory are right-wing parties, and of those that bother to vote more than 30% DON'T vote for them. That it was AV and not PR shows how well the Tories conned the Lib Dems. But that there was an opportunity to change things should have been taken with both hands.

the next constitutional thing they are talking about is the House of Lords. They are saying there should be a referendum to make that an elected house (well 80% of it). Now folks, if you believe in democracy, GET OFF YOUR ARSES AND VOTE FOR CHANGE. If you don't, because what's the point, or there are more important things to complain about, then you deserve everything you get.

We need an economy based on real things -- we need to make new technology devices, and we need to be competing in software and the IT revolution. We don't need to be looking at freeing up capital controls between countries and developing more and more ingenious ways to 'make money' from money. That is the fool's direction -- and one we have been going in since the 1960s when we agreed to look after Russia's US dollars.

Until this country wakes up to the fact that the few are stealing off the many to give to the few, and that we need to go back to owning much more as a nation (Nationalisation, remember that?) we will be in deep dodo. They say 25% of people will probably live in a freezing house this winter because they can't afford the high energy prices. Well Nationalise the utility companies and subsidise the unit cost of electricity and gas by taking more from the rich to do this.

LVT anyone?

OK, rant over.

Based on the above, what 10 practical things that the average person CAN do should be done:

1.

2.

etc.

My rebellion, so far, has been to vote UKIP, move money from RBS/Natwest to NW, launched a full on Nuke attack against a speed camera, and bought a smaller car to deprive big oil of a little bit.

[MrFlibble]

True, forgot to put that one in there. Personally I recommend weighting your portfolio more towards gold than silver though, due to higher price volatility in silver.

Only just starting to dip my toe in the water with Silver, but to be honest I much prefer Gold.

Silver doesn't seem to be as addictive as Gold. The more Gold I have the more Gold I want. Don't have the same feeling with Silver, but then again my toe dipping started at the $40 level

[Realistbear]

Only just starting to dip my toe in the water with Silver, but to be honest I much prefer Gold.

Silver doesn't seem to be as addictive as Gold. The more Gold I have the more Gold I want. Don't have the same feeling with Silver, but then again my toe dipping started at the $40 level

Not long before this thread goes to the GOLD FORUM.

How do you go from Portugal to gold discussions?

[General Congreve]

Yes I believe the average person is too ignorant for democracy to work. The average person just wants to live and enjoy their life, not spend 20 years becoming an expert about all sorts of policy positions.

What you say is true the people will never wake up until it gets very bad. Then they will be more angry than we can imagine and will likely jump behind the strongest and most radical/charismatic leader.

Winston Churchill:

"The best argument against democracy is a 5-minute conversation with the average voter".

[_w_]

Who do I write to in order to get my £500 tax refund?

I don't want to bail out banks (UK or European), I don't want to bail out failing currencies, I don't want to bail out other countries, and no one asked me if I did.

My MP? The Treasury? George Osbourne?

So you want to write to the guy who made that decision knowing full well you don't like it and you expect ... what exactly?

I don't mean to be more of an a**hole than I usual am, but do you see the absurdity of your approach?

I think you want to get on TV screens and then find a way to get through the thick layers of X-Factor drugs that wrap people's brains so that they begin to protest. That might get you somewhere.

Writing a very decent letter of protest to the guy who just robbed you is NOT going to do any good.

[General Congreve]

Not long before this thread goes to the GOLD FORUM.

How do you go from Portugal to gold discussions?

Probably the same way you get from Portugal to LVT, blowing up speed cameras and buying little cars.

Fair play on the UKIP vote though. I must admit I got my days muddled up and missed the vote, but was going to vote for UKIP myself, purely on the strength of Nigel Farage's speeches to the EU parliament that I have viewed on youtube. Never have I seen truer words spoken by a politician and delivered in such style. I can see why he had that plane crash now.

Edited May 17, 2011 by General Congreve

[MrFlibble]

Not long before this thread goes to the GOLD FORUM.

How do you go from Portugal to gold discussions?

Freedom

[General Congreve]

Freedom

Indeed. Freedom from the tyranny of our rulers who are stealing from us to give to the bankers via Portugal. Just as they are stealing from us by keeping interest rates below the rate of inflation and using QE to try and keep the bankers Ponzi banking scheme afloat.

Many may not really notice this theft just yet, but soon they will.

[Olebrum]

We are not helping Portugal. The money goes straight to bankers who hold Portuguese bonds.

[_w_]

Many may not really notice this theft just yet, but soon they will.

Oh no they won't. You're fighting against this: ABC Adds 13 Series to Next TV Season’s Schedule.

Another detail: a majority of people are debtors. They are quite delighted to see their debts cancelled thanks to the destruction of our savings. Don't expect them to rise to save hpc posters' savings.

[R K]

Yes but as somebody wrote, nobody gave us a chance to vote on those bailouts.

Cable mouthed off alot.

Unfortunately he turned out to be a pointless paper tiger.

(UKIP didn't even appear on my ballot paper which I think was a 'first').

We're beyond democracy now anyway and into the realms of political assassinations and take downs. Disturbing.

[_w_]

Cable mouthed off alot.

Unfortunately he turned out to be a pointless paper tiger.

That was my conclusion too.

We're beyond democracy now anyway and into the realms of political assassinations and take downs. Disturbing.

Or more pragmatically, follow the rule: if you can't beat them join them.

[General Congreve]

Oh no they won't. You're fighting against this: ABC Adds 13 Series to Next TV Season’s Schedule.

Another detail: a majority of people are debtors. They are quite delighted to see their debts cancelled thanks to the destruction of our savings. Don't expect them to rise to save hpc posters' savings.

When bread is £2 a loaf and petrol is £2 a litre I think they might. Although the reaction from most will be, "Bloody Tories", which of course is partly right, but not the whole story. The end result is that Labour will probably win the next election and Ed Balls can get on with financially mismanaging the economy at an even faster pace!

By the way, they are not seeing their debts destroyed, in real terms their debts are increasing. We do not have wage inflation like the 1970's. If wages stay static and your mortgage stays static, but everything else goes up in cost, then you have less disposable income left per month. As a result the burden of your mortgage increases as a % of your income after all other costs are factored in.

[Guest eight]

We are not helping Portugal. The money goes straight to bankers who hold Portuguese bonds.

I'm going there in a few weeks time. Can I have mine in cash to spend when I get there?

eight

[General Congreve]

That was my conclusion too.

Or more pragmatically, follow the rule: if you can't beat them join them.

Exactly. That's why I have gold and silver. Now every time the bankers and politicians make a self-serving decision that is bad for the pound, bad for savers and bad for the country, they are actually working for me, not against me. Happy Days!

[_w_]

When bread is £2 a loaf and petrol is £2 a litre I think they might. Although the reaction from most will be, "Bloody Tories", which of course is partly right, but not the whole story.

Or "bloody Poles", "bloody Chinese", "bloody bankers", etc. In the end they will just forget about the holidays, turn down the heating, house granny, live with mum and dad and sell their holiday 'cottage'. They'll find solace in the world that really matters where everything is possible and everyone's your friend: the world of facebook and TV.

By the way, they are not seeing their debts destroyed, in real terms their debts are increasing. We do not have wage inflation like the 1970's. If wages stay static and your mortgage stays static, but everything else goes up in cost, then you have less disposable income left per month. As a result the burden of your mortgage increases as a % of your income after all other costs are factored in.

Wages are nominally going up in aggregate. There will be losers and winners (you can't make an omelette without breaking a few eggs they will tell you) but I expect the majority to see a debt reduction vs. wage inflation in nominal terms. Their disposable income will go in a puff of smoke in the process but they'll feel quite chuffed about the debt having been eroded. At least this is what TPTB are working hard to achieve IMO and they seem to be succeeding so far.

Edited May 17, 2011 by _w_

[General Congreve]

Or "bloody Poles", "bloody Chinese", "bloody bankers", etc. In the end they will just forget about the holidays, turn down the heating, house granny, live with mum and dad and sell their holiday 'cottage'. They'll find solace in the world that really matters where everything is possible and everyone's your friend: the world of facebook and TV.

Wages are nominally going up in aggregate. There will be losers and winners (you can't make an omelette without breaking a few eggs they will tell you) but I expect the majority to see a debt reduction vs. wage inflation in nominal terms. Their disposable income will go in a puff of smoke in the process but they'll feel quite chuffed about the debt having been eroded. At least this is what TPTB are working hard to achieve IMO and they seem to be succeeding so far.

Nominally wages are going up sure, but if they aren't going up in real terms, the inflation in the cost of everything else will still leave people less able to pay their debts, ergo debt default will start to occur for some (food comes before debt payment). Therefore I can see the BoE/governments supposed strategy seriously back firing, as debt default is what they are trying to avoid.

Edited May 17, 2011 by General Congreve

[_w_]

Nominally wages are going up sure, but if they aren't going up in real terms, the inflation in the cost of everything else will still leave people less able to pay their debts, ergo debt default will start to occur for some (food comes before debt payment). Therefore I can see the BoE/governments supposed strategy seriously back firing, as debt default is what they are trying to avoid.

It will hurt some people, generally those people on lowest incomes who can't get wage rises. They are also those who have the smallest loans.

If you have to have some defaults no matter what and you're Merv, you will follow a policy that causes the smallest amount of damage e.g. sacrifice the weakest to help the others survive.

[hpc-craig]

So you want to write to the guy who made that decision knowing full well you don't like it and you expect ... what exactly?

I don't mean to be more of an a**hole than I usual am, but do you see the absurdity of your approach?

I think you want to get on TV screens and then find a way to get through the thick layers of X-Factor drugs that wrap people's brains so that they begin to protest. That might get you somewhere.

Writing a very decent letter of protest to the guy who just robbed you is NOT going to do any good.

I don't expect anything by writing a letter. That was sort of the point of my post (which was meant to be satirical of your average brit).

I see people writing letters to the paper weekly and where does it get them? Nowhere. You write a letter to your MP and more often than not, their secretary sends you 'the standard reply'.

We seem to be a nation of letter writers and no one does anything. I know - i'm just as bad.

Also don't worry about being an aresehole, I rather people tell it like it is than skirt round trying not to hurt peoples feelings.

[okaycuckoo]

The anger is brewing, the government is 80% out of touch and no leader has yet emerged.

This is the anger that Mervyn King notes is almost absent among the public?