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Mcdonalds Replacing Humans With Terminals


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Derrrr

It's ok Miko, you don't have to pretend to be stupid.

Now, what is the Socialist alternative then?. As you are a Socialist aren't you? (apologies if I'm wrong-but if you were, then I'm sure you'd be happy to admit it.)

You must have a well thought out and fully costed plan.

I'd love to hear it.

Edited by Jack's Creation
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I understand your point about the NMW but I would like to turn that argument on its head. If you insist on a decent wage then you eradicate low value soul destroying jobs...a conclusion you yourself reached but without making the connection.

Interesting perspective, but by increasing NMW, the alternative jobs may not become feasible either - they may just end up jobless and on the dole, which is rather soul destroying too I suspect.

I would rather provide a base level of support via benefits and make any work pay. You can then let the market do the pricing too.

If you don't value life then you may as well get people to waste it. If a job is worth someone doing then it is worth paying someone to do it. If it's not....automate.

I don't disagree with this point, but I'd rather let the market find this price point than some bureaucrats. I would suspect that once we reached near full employment, any jobs which couldn't be filled would be automated at that point.

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Time to raise the rents!

or of course

Time to raise the land tax!

If they tried to do the former, then I'd suggest the government did the latter. It's a game of cat and mouse.

That's just it though - any efficiency gains we make are sucked straight into higher rents. I know you don't think an LVT would work, but I can't see any other mechanism to combat this, short of abolishing land ownership (which I think we both agree isn't going to happen any time soon).

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It's ok Miko, you don't have to pretend to be stupid.

Now, what is the Socialist alternative then?. As you are a Socialist aren't you? (apologies if I'm wrong-but if you were, then I'm sure you'd be happy to admit it.)

You must have a well thought out and fully costed plan.

I'd love to hear it.

No your the stupid one you cannot even read posts in the right squence . Where did I say there was a socialist alternative DUMMY.

How about just sticking to posting pics of your mum and saying they were me , as your quite good at that .

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How about mincing half the unemployed and feeding them to the other half?

If we follow the logic of the free market then it's possible to argue that the moment a human being's value as labour falls below their value as protein they ought to be available as a raw material to entrepreneurs who will maximise their value by processing them into dog food or some other profitable commodity.

As far as I know there is nothing in the Free Market model that disallows this possibility. There are other frameworks of thought that claim that a human being has value in and of themselves- but this quasi mystical construct is not recognised by the Free Market- only commodity values can be input.

So to be entirely consistent a free market purist must agree that when labour value falls below protein value human beings should be ground up into dog meat- this being the optimum use to be made of the resource that individual represents.

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IDS has some good ideas, IMO.

The universal benefit is very much like a negative income tax. The less you work, the more benefits you get, BUT the more you work, the more you take home.

Taking a NIT further, you can abolish the NMW and just pay a decent NIT instead. You can then top it up with a poor paying job or decide not to. Either way, you will get your NIT and you take home more by working. You can fund it via company taxes too, if you feel the profits from automation just end up at the top.

Yes but his bosses will not let him do any of that so we just hear about his idears for moving people around the country form one high unmeployment area to the next , IDS and all the rest will not accept or talk about the fact there is not enough work for everyone .

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If we follow the logic of the free market then it's possible to argue that the moment a human being's value as labour falls below their value as protein they ought to be available as a raw material to entrepreneurs who will maximise their value by processing them into dog food or some other profitable commodity.

As far as I know there is nothing in the Free Market model that disallows this possibility. There are other frameworks of thought that claim that a human being has value in and of themselves- but this quasi mystical construct is not recognised by the Free Market- only commodity values can be input.

So to be entirely consistent a free market purist must agree that when labour value falls below protein value human beings should be ground up into dog meat- this being the optimum use to be made of the resource that individual represents.

:lol:

Funny as your post is, how in a free market, could you force individuals to mince themselves?

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But the thing is those same bueaucrats are subsidising valueless work through the benefit system.

True, but if you have sympathy for those out of work, you have to help them put food on the table and put a roof over their head. After all, it's not like they have an option to work the land instead, as they aren't granted free access to it. Some would say a basic benefit is in lue of being given free access to work land themselves anyway (there was a good thread on this last week). This is also why people suggest it should be funded via a LVT.

Also, IMO the bureaucrats do less damage, the less they meddle. A NIT is a very simple concept and it doesn't directly interfere with market pricing.

If that work paid what people were willing to pay for it at the burger till versus an automated till, then fair enough. Let the competition begin!

I'd say if employment is approaching 100%, the worst paying, least attractive jobs are going to be forced into automation. This appears to be the obvious conclusion to me.

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:lol:

Funny as your post is, how in a free market, could you force individuals to mince themselves?

easy...just tell them their 25 year IO loan for £300K has one year to run and you want to know how they are going to settle it.

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EDIT: You may realise that you can't have (universal) tax credits without doing something about the minimum wage that employers pay.

EDIT2: Sorry, I should have said "progressive universal tax credits"...I've missed an opportunity of a lifetime. I always wanted to find a way to drop it seemlessly into a sentence. :D

You've lost me! A NIT would be progressive (:lol:) in that the less you earn, the more benefits you are given. The more you earn, relatively less NIT is paid, up until you receive no NIT, but pay tax instead.

Am I missing something?

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easy...just tell them their 25 year IO loan for £300K has one year to run and you want to know how they are going to settle it.

I would have thought that would have been met with laughter and a trip to the court to file for bankruptcy. The last I heard, we don't even have debtor prisons, never mind debtor mincers! ;)

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If they tried to do the former, then I'd suggest the government did the latter. It's a game of cat and mouse.

That's just it though - any efficiency gains we make are sucked straight into higher rents. I know you don't think an LVT would work, but I can't see any other mechanism to combat this, short of abolishing land ownership (which I think we both agree isn't going to happen any time soon).

LVT is rent.

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Funny as your post is, how in a free market, could you force individuals to mince themselves?

You confuse the notion of a 'free market' with the notion of human liberty- in reality the slave markets of the nineteenth century were 'free markets'- Buyers and sellers were free to accept or decline any offer put to them, prices for slaves were not fixed ect.

Just because the term 'free market' has the word 'free' in it does not mean that the model incorporates any notions of human value or liberty- it simply means that buyers and sellers are not forced to buy or sell if they don't want to- a very narrow and specific range of action required to enable the price discovery mechanism.

Of course what was missing from the slave markets was the recognition that the commodities in question might have had a value and worth beyond that trades frames of reference- but I covered this point in my OP.

To equate free markets with liberty is incorrect because markets deal only in commodities- abstract notions like liberty or the intrinsic value of human life are not commodities and therefore cannot be meaningful inputs into this model- it simply has no way to process such concepts.

The free market mechanism no more guarantees human liberty than a thermometer can tell you the time - the market is a price discovery machine- not a value discovery machine.

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You confuse the notion of a 'free market' with the notion of human liberty- in reality the slave markets of the nineteenth century were 'free markets'- Buyers and sellers were free to accept or decline any offer put to them, prices for slaves were not fixed ect.

Just because the term 'free market' has the word 'free' in it does not mean that the model incorporates any notions of human value or liberty- it simply means that buyers and sellers are not forced to buy or sell if they don't want to- a very narrow and specific range of action required to enable the price discovery mechanism.

Of course what was missing from the slave markets was the recognition that the commodities in question might have had a value and worth beyond that trades frames of reference- but I covered this point in my OP.

To equate free markets with liberty is incorrect because markets deal only in commodities- abstract notions like liberty or the intrinsic value of human life are not commodities and therefore cannot be meaningful inputs into this model- it simply has no way to process such concepts.

The free market mechanism no more guarantees human liberty than a thermometer can tell you the time - the market is a price discovery machine- not a value discovery machine.

Bilge.

A free market is a venue where people can refuse offers made without getting hurt or physically attacked. Slaves rather obviously don't fit into a free market.

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No one tory , labour or lib*******s , want to admit that there is not enough work for every adult to work 40 hours a week so they carry on scapgoating those without work and refer to them as lazy.

People keep talking about work and jobs as if it's a finite thing. In fact there is always something useful that a person can be doing - they just may need the appropriate training, location change or incentive to do it.

There are better things to do with your time that take burger orders! This is more efficient for everyone. Ultimately, it means people will have more time and money to spend on other, more useful things and services... which is where said burger till operators will end up instead.

Exactly. Automation is being painted in this thread like a bad thing, as if us all going back to subsistence farming would be a good thing as then no-one is unemployed.

Sure the day the new machine is installed, the burger-server is out of a job. But why are there not thousands upon thousands of unemployed flint knappers, telegram deliverers and blacksmiths in Britain? Answer - because as time goes on people stop training to do obsolete jobs and learn new ones.

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A few years back I had to wait for someone in a McDs and what stuck me was that one seemed to be ordering what was on the menu. They were asking for things like a cheeseburger without the cheese and big mac without the gergins or some such like. Also they keep complaining about what they had ordered. I began to feel sorry for the staff as the customers, all who looked like they didn't work, were so bloody minded.

Makes me wonder if its a move to stop wastage rather than labour. Be interesting to see how their customer manage knowing that they can only get what's on the touchpads. It'll either be a hit as these clients feel one up that they know how to use the terminals or flop as they can't kick off and get attention from the staff.

Playing devils advocate, maybe all their customers will contract some fatal disease and that will solve the problem with what to do the swaths of unemployed . :ph34r:

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You confuse the notion of a 'free market' with the notion of human liberty- in reality the slave markets of the nineteenth century were 'free markets'- Buyers and sellers were free to accept or decline any offer put to them, prices for slaves were not fixed ect.

Just because the term 'free market' has the word 'free' in it does not mean that the model incorporates any notions of human value or liberty- it simply means that buyers and sellers are not forced to buy or sell if they don't want to- a very narrow and specific range of action required to enable the price discovery mechanism.

Of course what was missing from the slave markets was the recognition that the commodities in question might have had a value and worth beyond that trades frames of reference- but I covered this point in my OP.

To equate free markets with liberty is incorrect because markets deal only in commodities- abstract notions like liberty or the intrinsic value of human life are not commodities and therefore cannot be meaningful inputs into this model- it simply has no way to process such concepts.

The free market mechanism no more guarantees human liberty than a thermometer can tell you the time - the market is a price discovery machine- not a value discovery machine.

There isn't much to add to Injin's response.

Slave trading clearly isn't free market, as you're having to coerce the slaves with threats of force.

By suggesting that a free market doesn't rule out the mincing of people, shows a complete misunderstanding of what a free market is.

EDIT: To add, if you had suggested that trading cattle wasn't a free market, you'd have been onto something interesting - do we only value the free will of humans in a free market? The slave/mincing people stuff is nonsense though.

Edited by Traktion
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Yeah, but it's given back again, minus some waste - it is redistributed.

Spent on infrastructure, stuff the state thinks is a good idea.

Private rent is just kept by the rentier.

Private rent is given back in the form of payment for services.

There is no difference.

Except for the labels and the fantasy, naturlich.

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Spent on infrastructure, stuff the state thinks is a good idea.

It's not perfect, but it's better than nothing.

Private rent is given back in the form of payment for services.

There is no difference.

Except for the labels and the fantasy, naturlich.

Extracting rent and then being able to spend it back in exchange for services is very different. In fact, it just shows what a great idea the rentiers are on to - it's money for old rope and a great way to buy more services with little effort.

If rentiers gave it back in charity, then you would be on to something. But they don't. So you're not.

Poor show, Injin.

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