Mcdonalds Replacing Humans With Terminals

[PopGun]

IMO, there is nothing wrong with someone working every hour of the day - that's their right. If they want to sweat it doing 60 hour weeks, just to be able to get a bigger car, more holidays, bigger house etc, then that's up to them. I don't think it would be constructive to start limiting those in society who are willing to work long and hard.

Fair enough, but at the same time they should understand the laws of unintended consequences.

[Injin]

If you are starving and I have food to spare I have a power over you- and if I demand you hand over your house in return for a ham sandwich then I have exploited that power. You can (and indeed do) present this an act of charity,which It may indeed be, but who says an act of charity can't be both an expression of power and an exploitation of it?

The british empire was founded and run on precisely this brand of hypocricy.

No, it wasn't. The british empire was founded on pointung guns at people and taking their stuff off them, once the guns had been invesnted by the free market such as it was at that time.

Spoken like a true neo liberal- nobody is exploited so long as they agree to it-right? Except that if you point a gun at someone they will also agree to it- so mere agreement cannot be the touchstone of a free choice- can it?

Yes, it can.

And if it can't then we must employ a more sophisticated view of the nature of coercion- simply saying 'ooh look- he agreed to give up his house in return for a ham sandwich, that means he was not coerced to do it' is a childs view of the world, utterly superfical.

Power comes in many forms- not all of them overt violence- this much should be obvious. If I don't please my boss he might sack me- he won't attack me, he won't threaten to beat me up- but he might sack me. If I desperately need my job, does he have power over me or not? Of course he bloody does.

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Yes- of course- history is replete with people doing other people 'favours' like this- we weren't exploiting those africans- we were 'civilising' them- even the slave traders argued that they were rescuing heathen souls from damnation.

No doubt you are shocked, then, by the ingratitude of those workers at Fox conn who, instead of being grateful for the opportunity to work themselves to a standstill are choosing to commit suicide instead? Why don't these people appreciiate the favour their benign employers are doing them?

And if I can't refuse- if I have no choice but to submit to their assessment- am I then being coerced? This cute arrangement you describe above only works if I can refuse all offers put to me- if I can't then the power dynamic alters in a fundemental way- and this in turn distorts the market mechanism by introducing something you simply refuse to deal with- subjectivity.

If I know that you are desperete then the measure of my offer will not be based on what you are worth- it will be based on how desperate I know you are- see how that works?- now your market mechanism has been subverted because the agents involved are not the automata you need them to be, they are complex beings quite capable of incorporating the subjective reality of their opponents position into their offer.

What you are worth is not the point- how needy you are is- that is the real dynamic in play here- a fact you seem deeply unwilling to recognise.

Bankers seem to have done very well in the corruption game without the need for violence.

What about a system that identifies need as a problem to be solved rather than a weakness to be exploited?

There is only one - the free market.

I'l make it plain. if you've got no food and are facing starvation and some guy offers you food in exchange for all you own, he has done you a massive favour.

[wonderpup]

There is only one - the free market.

I'l make it plain. if you've got no food and are facing starvation and some guy offers you food in exchange for all you own, he has done you a massive favour.

So you propose a set up where those that control the wealth and resources wield life and death power over those who don't.

A replication of what we have now except that the existing inhibitions on the use of that power are negated by a beefed up laissez-faire model that essentially states 'to the winner the spoils and devil take the hindmost'.

Not really seeing how this reinforcement of the current power dynamic represents a breakthrough in human freedom- unless you figure to be amongst the winners?

[Injin]

So you propose a set up where those that control the wealth and resources wield life and death power over those who don't.

only if hey manage to somehow be unable to fend for themselves using the massive amount of raw materials there are.

A replication of what we have now except that the existing inhibitions on the use of that power are negated by a beefed up laissez-faire model that essentially states 'to the winner the spoils and devil take the hindmost'.

Not really seeing how this reinforcement of the current power dynamic represents a breakthrough in human freedom- unless you figure to be amongst the winners?

You won't get shot for walking up to a tree and eating the fruit.

of course if you are too ******ing clueless to do that and need someone to do it for you, then you'll probably lose your shirt.

[wonderpup]

You won't get shot for walking up to a tree and eating the fruit.

of course if you are too ******ing clueless to do that and need someone to do it for you, then you'll probably lose your shirt.

If the fruit and the tree are not mine I can't eat the fruit can I? I assume your market based society will still need to recognise property rights?

Or are there no farmers in your world, simply nomadic traders doing deals on the road?

[Injin]

If the fruit and the tree are not mine I can't eat the fruit can I? I assume your market based society will still need to recognise property rights?

It does, but you don't get shot for breaking them.

Or are there no farmers in your world, simply nomadic traders doing deals on the road?

Plenty of farmers.

[wonderpup]

It does, but you don't get shot for breaking them.

Well- your free market tyranny doesn't sound too bad in that case- better than the other brands anyway- where do I sign up?

[Injin]

Well- your free market tyranny doesn't sound too bad in that case- better than the other brands anyway- where do I sign up?

Just don't attack anyone, or ask for anyone to be attacked by anyone else and you are already in.